Got that one by me Rocket. Do I take it you think that OUR King will ruin everything, or, what?
Socialized medicine is a done deal
- Thread starter aristotle
- Start date
letzrockexpress
Veteran Expediter
Naw, I don't think our King will ruin everything...not intentionally anyhow. The monumental challenges that have been put before him would be monumental for even the most experienced and qualified statesman. He isn't that guy. He's in way over his head. There are just too many issues that need dealing with right now. To propose this kind of revolutionary reform of healthcare when so many other things hang in the balance is, in my opinion, irresponsible. I was just adding fuel to your rant.
It was not a rant!! I was speaking forcefully. LOL!! I DO think that he and his ilk are out to destroy this Nation. You don't have to if you don't wish to. We are still a free nation, for the time being anyway.
One thing though, please try not to quote songs, I most likely have NO idea in the world what you are speaking about. That is even more likely if it was recorded after 1969 or by apes who hang their guitars down around their knees!!!
I doubt very much that I can name even ONE song that Springsteen dude did. Can't say I ever listened to him. See him on TV once or twice, too goofy for me.
One thing though, please try not to quote songs, I most likely have NO idea in the world what you are speaking about. That is even more likely if it was recorded after 1969 or by apes who hang their guitars down around their knees!!!
I doubt very much that I can name even ONE song that Springsteen dude did. Can't say I ever listened to him. See him on TV once or twice, too goofy for me.
I didn't relate this to europe but scandinavia. Don't matter though. The US is a fairly young country in the history of the world. But never mind that.
Your current govt is headed towards granting all those illegals some form of amnesty and/or citizenship. If that happens, that 10 million (number open to dispute, depends on what number you think is right) will vote for the ones giving them rights. Further they'll all need some form of health care support. Hence another large voting block for the public option.
So we know this is happening, but from a perspective of being in a country where the public option was exercised years ago it really isn't super bad. No it ain't perfect. But then again what govt run anything is perfect?
BTW the drug prices are for all even those new under patent protection not just generics. Now I'm sure we can go through a big list of prices and we'll find some higher and lower on both sides of the border, but overall we enjoy a bit lower pricing.
I know accepting something this huge the govt is forcing on everyone is a big pill and probably a lot more public debate was warranted and such. But we are aware the biggest opponents are the drug and insurance companies as they see a loss of business and a possible mandating of pricing (good possibility of this). The medical industry is also against this again due to the more than likely price fixing.
While many do not want this there are more and more Americans finding themselves on the short end of the stick with their current insurance coverage for one reason or another. Many corporations are finding the medical coverage getting too expensive and opting for lower priced plans (same price less coverage?) leaving their employees with less coverage than previous years. Is this good or bad? For you the end user this is bad. For us o/o we have some avenues to explore with joining associations etc through which we can exercise that membership to our advantage for getting some sort of a deal. But for many this is not an option.
Rob
Your current govt is headed towards granting all those illegals some form of amnesty and/or citizenship. If that happens, that 10 million (number open to dispute, depends on what number you think is right) will vote for the ones giving them rights. Further they'll all need some form of health care support. Hence another large voting block for the public option.
So we know this is happening, but from a perspective of being in a country where the public option was exercised years ago it really isn't super bad. No it ain't perfect. But then again what govt run anything is perfect?
BTW the drug prices are for all even those new under patent protection not just generics. Now I'm sure we can go through a big list of prices and we'll find some higher and lower on both sides of the border, but overall we enjoy a bit lower pricing.
I know accepting something this huge the govt is forcing on everyone is a big pill and probably a lot more public debate was warranted and such. But we are aware the biggest opponents are the drug and insurance companies as they see a loss of business and a possible mandating of pricing (good possibility of this). The medical industry is also against this again due to the more than likely price fixing.
While many do not want this there are more and more Americans finding themselves on the short end of the stick with their current insurance coverage for one reason or another. Many corporations are finding the medical coverage getting too expensive and opting for lower priced plans (same price less coverage?) leaving their employees with less coverage than previous years. Is this good or bad? For you the end user this is bad. For us o/o we have some avenues to explore with joining associations etc through which we can exercise that membership to our advantage for getting some sort of a deal. But for many this is not an option.
Rob
Well, a few things to keep in mind, it is likely that just as many Canadians cross the border into the U.S. for more timely treatment or medicines that they cannot get in Canada as U.S. citizens cross into Canada to get theirs. Also the number is dropping with the lower prices Wally World and other places have put in place. Also, large numbers of people, from Michigan at least, take buses up there for their drugs. That tour also spends the rest of the day at your casinos. If you can afford to gamble you can pay more for your OWN health care. Gambling PROVES you have more money than you need.
Another point, most Canadians, and a very large number of Americans keep forgetting that our Constitution does NOT allow for the Federal Government to use FORCE or any other form of inticement to REQUIRE a FREE Citizen to purchase ANYTHING. IT IS ILLEGAL HERE!! How it works where you come from I have no idea.
As to the illegal invaders of this Nation, they should be booted out.
The use of force to take "donations" to fund this, makes it "theft" NOT a donation. That is a CRIMINAL act. To use force, either physical or financial, is nothing short of a dictatorship in formation.
As to the numbers without insurance, we have NO right or entitlement to it in this Nation. For a Nation to remain FREE it must require it's People to assume responsibility for their OWN lives. For a PERSON to remain FREE they must assume that responsibility as their own AND fight ANY attempt to control their lives.
Another point, most Canadians, and a very large number of Americans keep forgetting that our Constitution does NOT allow for the Federal Government to use FORCE or any other form of inticement to REQUIRE a FREE Citizen to purchase ANYTHING. IT IS ILLEGAL HERE!! How it works where you come from I have no idea.
As to the illegal invaders of this Nation, they should be booted out.
The use of force to take "donations" to fund this, makes it "theft" NOT a donation. That is a CRIMINAL act. To use force, either physical or financial, is nothing short of a dictatorship in formation.
As to the numbers without insurance, we have NO right or entitlement to it in this Nation. For a Nation to remain FREE it must require it's People to assume responsibility for their OWN lives. For a PERSON to remain FREE they must assume that responsibility as their own AND fight ANY attempt to control their lives.
I'm sure the lawyers/democrats/liberals will give amnesty/citizenship to all the CRIMINAL aliens to buy all those votes. That's a sickening and infuriating thought that's basically a given. I'd love to see some mystery virus take over Congress on the day of the vote and cause every one of them who votes yes to drop dead on the chamber floor. Since even science fiction doesn't have anything that good I'm sure it will never happen but it would be just what they deserve.
There are two basic things that sum up why this health care garbage shouldn't be happening.
1. Congress is forcing it down our throats against the wishes of the majority.
2. Congress will not be a part of it just as they are not a part of many things they force on the rest of us.
Come to think of it, we need a good virus to go along with this vote as well.
There are two basic things that sum up why this health care garbage shouldn't be happening.
1. Congress is forcing it down our throats against the wishes of the majority.
2. Congress will not be a part of it just as they are not a part of many things they force on the rest of us.
Come to think of it, we need a good virus to go along with this vote as well.
Yes, the demographic trends are against us. The handwriting is on the wall. Grant amnesty to the illegals and it's Democrat rule for as far as the eye can see. Socialism today, Socialism tomorrow, Socialism forever.
The old will reliably vote for more government programs. The young will vote for more government. The unions are married to the Democrat Party. Every weird left-of-center special interest group is slavishly devoted to the Democrat/Socialists...
What's left for freedom-loving people? What's left for those who aspire to traditional American values? Answer: a future with tax rates of 50% or more. More government, more tax, less freedom.
Problem is, government cannot possibly deliver what it is promising the Left.
The old will reliably vote for more government programs. The young will vote for more government. The unions are married to the Democrat Party. Every weird left-of-center special interest group is slavishly devoted to the Democrat/Socialists...
What's left for freedom-loving people? What's left for those who aspire to traditional American values? Answer: a future with tax rates of 50% or more. More government, more tax, less freedom.
Problem is, government cannot possibly deliver what it is promising the Left.
WAY higher than 50% taxes. The average taxpayer is ALREADY paying that much. Don't forget sales tax, state taxes, property taxes. It will soon be as bad as when I went to England, back the the INCOME tax alone STARTED at 50% and went up as high as 98%!! Then there was the infamous VAT at 17%. Fuel taxes, property taxes. ALL those taxes are designed to do ONE thing. Keep people in their place and keep the money and power in the hands of "Old Money".
letzrockexpress
Veteran Expediter
I'm not sure what you mean by fairly young nation but we have the second oldest constitution in the world behind Switzerland...
Amnesty is one thing, citizenship is quite another. Only citizens can vote.
It isn't super bad? The welfare rolls in your cold and annoying ,though mineral rich country are staggering! The social programs Canada offers with it's nipple mentality has created nothing less than a bunch of lazy system suckers. According to the Frasure Institute, The welfare percentage for single parent households in 2007 was 55.8%! for unattached men it was 38.3 % and unattached women was 46.9%!! That's not crazy, that is insane! Add to that only about 20% of Candians bother to get educated beyond high school..I guess when you can suckle off the system , why bother?
Yeah, and your average household tax rate (Federal, Provincial and sales taxes together) is roughly double of what we pay here.
Healthcare reform is necessary, but not this kind of reform. This is a tax burden of mammoth proportions just waiting to happen. God help us all....
WOW Rocket!! I agree with everything you wrote in that last post!! This has been happening more and more lately!! It my be a trend!! In reality we often say the same thing just in different ways, like good cop, bad cop.
I tend to be MORE than a bit blunt. Some times it is called RANTING. So be it. Let's make one thing clear, I am NOT opposed to a minor reform to health care. It MUST be based on reality, not fear tactics. It MUST include TORT REFORM or it is NOT reform. I MUST include little or NO government money. Government is corrupt by nature and wasteful by choice.
The idea is to make it less oppressive for people to provide for their OWN care. That can be done with just a FEW minor changes to mainly STATE laws. The Federal Government has little authority to dictate ANYTHING.
The bills being considered will destroy our freedoms. Mark my word, they will use this so called "health care reform" to outlaw many things and to control your everyday actions. All in the name "saving health care dollars".
I tend to be MORE than a bit blunt. Some times it is called RANTING. So be it. Let's make one thing clear, I am NOT opposed to a minor reform to health care. It MUST be based on reality, not fear tactics. It MUST include TORT REFORM or it is NOT reform. I MUST include little or NO government money. Government is corrupt by nature and wasteful by choice.
The idea is to make it less oppressive for people to provide for their OWN care. That can be done with just a FEW minor changes to mainly STATE laws. The Federal Government has little authority to dictate ANYTHING.
The bills being considered will destroy our freedoms. Mark my word, they will use this so called "health care reform" to outlaw many things and to control your everyday actions. All in the name "saving health care dollars".
Amnesty will lead to citizenship as the road to apply as a landed immigrant will become wide open. Let's face it once these people are forgiven breaking the law many will want to become citizens and some bright spark in the govt is going to push for it. They'll see the possibility in the voting block. Not sure if your stats are like ours but immigrants vote more in elections than do people born and raised here. Many raised in a country gain a sort of apathy with the politicians and their stupidity and ideas and seldom come out and really show their displeasure as quite often there is no other decent choice. This happens even in countries where they have loads of parties (lots of losers to choose from) and of course they get a very fragmented vote.
Yeah constitution wise you do have one of the oldest. This is because most european countries were monarchies for years and did not have a constitution or otherwise declaring the setup of the government or the rights of the citizens etc. Your republic is older than France as a republic but not as a country (in one shape or another, Frances borders have changed over the centuries).
I can relate to not wanting something rammed down your throats as this health care thing is being done. Having said that you do have to realize that in order for this option to even have half a chance of working then the majority (or all) must contribute and therefore the govt has to make it so. However the govt is constantly forcing new regulations and laws and taxes and such on us. So this is another tax but supposedly one for the benefit of all.
Yeah constitution wise you do have one of the oldest. This is because most european countries were monarchies for years and did not have a constitution or otherwise declaring the setup of the government or the rights of the citizens etc. Your republic is older than France as a republic but not as a country (in one shape or another, Frances borders have changed over the centuries).
I can relate to not wanting something rammed down your throats as this health care thing is being done. Having said that you do have to realize that in order for this option to even have half a chance of working then the majority (or all) must contribute and therefore the govt has to make it so. However the govt is constantly forcing new regulations and laws and taxes and such on us. So this is another tax but supposedly one for the benefit of all.
Just keep in mind FSI53, this bill is NOT legal under our Constitution. Why then should we be FORCED to accept it?
The fact is, the more you do for people the LESS they will do for themselves. More welfare programs equals higher poverty rates.
Not ONE of the socialist programs in THIS country are doing what they were designed to do. They are chocked full of graft and corruption. They are ALL over budget and and the brink of becoming insolvent. The bills being debated, if passed, will NOT lower the cost of health care, just shift the place where it is paid for and they will INCREASE costs and lower care. That is OUR history.
You can accept these things in Canada if you like them. I think that you will find that a HUGE number of Americans are FAR more independent than that. Most Americans would rather do it on their own. At least for now. I do fear that as years go on that will change. We seem to be teaching dependence in our schools and turning this country into just ANOTHER country of worker bees and drones.
Many of us here, myself included will NOT accept this illegal take over of private industry. I think that is the one thing that you, as a Canadian, are not grasping. This is NOT legal!! Therefor, we are NOT bound by the laws and have every RIGHT to fight them.
If you want to lower health care costs in the United States you have to do it in such a way that government is NOT involved and the laws that are the main cause of our high health care costs are removed. I think you will find that IF a REAL study was done to find out WHY cost are high that the MAIN causes would be do to government interference and silly lawsuits. Change both of those things I would NOT be surprised to see costs fall by as much as 30% or more.
The fact is, the more you do for people the LESS they will do for themselves. More welfare programs equals higher poverty rates.
Not ONE of the socialist programs in THIS country are doing what they were designed to do. They are chocked full of graft and corruption. They are ALL over budget and and the brink of becoming insolvent. The bills being debated, if passed, will NOT lower the cost of health care, just shift the place where it is paid for and they will INCREASE costs and lower care. That is OUR history.
You can accept these things in Canada if you like them. I think that you will find that a HUGE number of Americans are FAR more independent than that. Most Americans would rather do it on their own. At least for now. I do fear that as years go on that will change. We seem to be teaching dependence in our schools and turning this country into just ANOTHER country of worker bees and drones.
Many of us here, myself included will NOT accept this illegal take over of private industry. I think that is the one thing that you, as a Canadian, are not grasping. This is NOT legal!! Therefor, we are NOT bound by the laws and have every RIGHT to fight them.
If you want to lower health care costs in the United States you have to do it in such a way that government is NOT involved and the laws that are the main cause of our high health care costs are removed. I think you will find that IF a REAL study was done to find out WHY cost are high that the MAIN causes would be do to government interference and silly lawsuits. Change both of those things I would NOT be surprised to see costs fall by as much as 30% or more.
letzrockexpress
Veteran Expediter
No question about it..It's the Pied Piper Syndrome.
I doubt it is the Pied Piper thing. I don't see YOU or I EVER being followers. 
That is a GOOD thing by the way.
That is a GOOD thing by the way.
In the unlikely event that the current form of this travesty gets passed and signed into law, it will most certainly be tested in court - especially the penalty for not buying govt. mandated health insurance. Just wait until the first person gets fined or better yet, sentenced to jail; they go straight to court and it gets struck down on constitutional grounds. The more the govt. appeals the decision, the worse they look in the eyes of the public. It's also possible that people might refuse to pay the taxes to fund this unconstitutional mandate. This type of intentional non-compliance will only be the beginnings of civil disobedience on the part of freedom loving Americans who refuse to be subjugated by a radical left-wing political party committed to a socialist agenda.
greg334
Veteran Expediter
Ummm ... Right ...
OK it may pass through the process of reconciliation with the house bill but it is a long way from being passed and then there is a serious question of constitutionality, there is a serious question of who's right it is to regulate health care contracts between the patient and the provider(s), which also means how are they going to handle the Roe v. wade question of privacy, seeing that part of the bill also regulates health care based on life style, age and other factors that are not within the realm of public's right to know - hence the government's right to know.
If this does pass, then there is a serious question for those abortion rights people that there is an overturning of Roe v. Wade due to the need for a goverment option or any federal regulations within the frame work of any reform. In other words this can nullify Roe v. Wade if it is forced on us.
Then we get Rob's point of view, which I understand where he is coming from completely. But there is a slight correction that needs to be made, our country is older than France and Germany. Their goverments ceased to exist a while ago and they went from monarcies to a near democracy (well france is supposed to be a republic but who knows what they was, I think they had 120 governments since their revolution).
OK it may pass through the process of reconciliation with the house bill but it is a long way from being passed and then there is a serious question of constitutionality, there is a serious question of who's right it is to regulate health care contracts between the patient and the provider(s), which also means how are they going to handle the Roe v. wade question of privacy, seeing that part of the bill also regulates health care based on life style, age and other factors that are not within the realm of public's right to know - hence the government's right to know.
If this does pass, then there is a serious question for those abortion rights people that there is an overturning of Roe v. Wade due to the need for a goverment option or any federal regulations within the frame work of any reform. In other words this can nullify Roe v. Wade if it is forced on us.
Then we get Rob's point of view, which I understand where he is coming from completely. But there is a slight correction that needs to be made, our country is older than France and Germany. Their goverments ceased to exist a while ago and they went from monarcies to a near democracy (well france is supposed to be a republic but who knows what they was, I think they had 120 governments since their revolution).
Oilerman1957
Expert Expediter
Just wondering>>> Is there anyone here AGAINST the public option that DOES NOT already have insurance?
I have a BCBS policy that costs quite a bit and has huge deductibles however if I needed a transplant or had cancer it would save me a lot. It does basically nothing for day to day or moderate illness. I am against the entire plan, not just the public option.
I am against the government reaching into your pocket to pay for anything for me.
I am against the government reaching into my pocket to pay for anything for you.
Any benefits to one individual from another individual should be voluntary through contributions to churches and other similar organizations that are more honest and more capable than government ever has been or ever will be.
I am against the government running any program dealing with anything since they are the most inept and most corrupt of anyone as well as being overloaded with lawyers. Look at how close to 100% the damocrats are to being lawyers.
I am against the government reaching into your pocket to pay for anything for me.
I am against the government reaching into my pocket to pay for anything for you.
Any benefits to one individual from another individual should be voluntary through contributions to churches and other similar organizations that are more honest and more capable than government ever has been or ever will be.
I am against the government running any program dealing with anything since they are the most inept and most corrupt of anyone as well as being overloaded with lawyers. Look at how close to 100% the damocrats are to being lawyers.
Last edited:
Oilerman1957
Expert Expediter
But they already reach into your pockets, and corrupt? You dont think private and public companies are corrupt? As well as being overloaded with lawyers? We already pay for the uninsured through higher preminiums. The unisured are reaching into your pockets so why not make them buy insurance?
letzrockexpress
Veteran Expediter
Speaking of overturning Roe V. Wade, I think there may be a new movement afoot....
American Baby Stands Up To Abortion Monger Barack Hussein Obama | ChristWire