Should we worry?

[greg334]

Hitler could have and should have been stopped. I know how and why he was able to come to power. I understand the situation in post WWI Germany that led to a Hitler.

Well not really.

We all know Hitler was bluffing when he decided to ignore the treaties and rearm the military and the same went for the militarization of the Ruhr Valley but outside of that France was the only country capable of actually holding them back and they were indecisive within their government to do much of anything, let alone deal with Germany. Italy and parts of Poland were pro-german, so the war happened because of us crapping on Germany by allowing France bleed them and humiliate them. If we didn't agree with the treaty, if we supported disarment without the demand that Germany becomes a Democracy, then maybe Hilter would not have come to power but instead a worst evil would have.

Remember that a lot of scholars in England have closely examined the issues leading up to and during the first wolrd war and a number of them agree that both England and the US should not have gotten involved with the war between central powers and France. It led to a widening of issues post war, which Hitler was just one of them.

Many in Europe saw what was going on in Russia after the 1917 revolt. What was worse was allowing it to continue AFTER WWII. Europe, and the United States, COULD have put an end to it.

Part of the reason that did not happen was that Europe was tired of wars, for good reason. Part of the problem was that in Europe, and the U.S. to a lesser degree, there was support for Soviet style rule.

Well not really. We did try to help out but European leaders, which were monarchs and all related, didn't do anything - they were arguing among themselves. The revolution was not just a problem for Russia but for Europe because if it spread like the 1847 revolutions, it would mean the end of many countries.

The "communist" movement was greatly entrenched in Europe by that time. There are always people who want to have power over others. The "sheeple" tend to allow themselves to be controlled.

well that last statement means a lot. First off you don't get this part - the European experience is not like ours, they tend to allow themselves to be controlled by their very culture. Even France where Liberty is supposed to be a great asset, Liberty still means you need approval to open a business or do something else.

Communism, which the Russians never achieved, was the mindset of many, but it wasn't what we have seen. Socialism is what you mentioned in the next quote but even that is a lot different.

We see it here now. The more "socialist" we become, the more our "kindly government" does for us, the lazier we are and the more "control" we are willing to accept. We have many in this country now who have become SO dependent on government that they are no longer able to function on their own. Many in my family are like that. I am sure you know many as well. They would not have the sense NOT to just blindly march into the chambers.

What puzzles me is this,

knowing and growing up with Soviet citizens, I never got the impression nor heard of a lazy soviet. Everyone seemed to work - like it or not. Everyone had to pay taxes, regardless who they were and everyone had a duty to fulfill. It wasn't as what we experience today. What we have is a mix of entitlement culture with elitism trying to control everything, not socialism.

Becoming or depending on government is not what seems to be happening when you apply socialism, if that was the case, then many who come here from Russia or a former Soviet bloc country would be sitting on their a** collecting welfare but that's not the case.

I honestly think there is two issues here, one is our culture is divided up by race and then we justify the laziness of one or a couple races through guilt.

 

[layoutshooter]

Well not really.

We all know Hitler was bluffing when he decided to ignore the treaties and rearm the military and the same went for the militarization of the Ruhr Valley but outside of that France was the only country capable of actually holding them back and they were indecisive within their government to do much of anything, let alone deal with Germany. Italy and parts of Poland were pro-german, so the war happened because of us crapping on Germany by allowing France bleed them and humiliate them. If we didn't agree with the treaty, if we supported disarment without the demand that Germany becomes a Democracy, then maybe Hilter would not have come to power but instead a worst evil would have.

Remember that a lot of scholars in England have closely examined the issues leading up to and during the first wolrd war and a number of them agree that both England and the US should not have gotten involved with the war between central powers and France. It led to a widening of issues post war, which Hitler was just one of them.



Well not really. We did try to help out but European leaders, which were monarchs and all related, didn't do anything - they were arguing among themselves. The revolution was not just a problem for Russia but for Europe because if it spread like the 1847 revolutions, it would mean the end of many countries.



well that last statement means a lot. First off you don't get this part - the European experience is not like ours, they tend to allow themselves to be controlled by their very culture. Even France where Liberty is supposed to be a great asset, Liberty still means you need approval to open a business or do something else.

Communism, which the Russians never achieved, was the mindset of many, but it wasn't what we have seen. Socialism is what you mentioned in the next quote but even that is a lot different.



What puzzles me is this,

knowing and growing up with Soviet citizens, I never got the impression nor heard of a lazy soviet. Everyone seemed to work - like it or not. Everyone had to pay taxes, regardless who they were and everyone had a duty to fulfill. It wasn't as what we experience today. What we have is a mix of entitlement culture with elitism trying to control everything, not socialism.

Becoming or depending on government is not what seems to be happening when you apply socialism, if that was the case, then many who come here from Russia or a former Soviet bloc country would be sitting on their a** collecting welfare but that's not the case.

I honestly think there is two issues here, one is our culture is divided up by race and then we justify the laziness of one or a couple races through guilt.

No, Soviet citizens work, they HAVE too. Many do NOT do good work, they only do what is required to live. They tend, at least over there, to show little drive. It is often taught out of them.

I don't get the "race" thing you are talking about. ALL of the welfare rangers and medicade mamma's in my family are of one race. They are the ONLY ones that I personally know.

I do know that there are many of other races too. I just don't know any. Lazy in the United States transcends race. Dependence on government for every thing does as well. All you have to do is go to a UAW meeting to see that.


I agree, we should have stayed OUT of WWI. Once we were involved we should have done more, although it might not have been possible, to make the treaty far less harsh on Germany.

 

[TonyG]

So Sue how far away from Robin Gibb did you live?

Hi Greg

I lived in the same small town of Thame LOL.
You can walk around the whole of Thame in 10 minutes

I see he is fighting the good fight there at the mo - 'cos they are wanting to build more houses on farmland with no thought to adding to the infrastruture.

Left there last October to marry Tony and "settle" in NC (I think we have been back to house Oh at least 6 times LOL

I am finding this thread really interesting inasmuch as what is known concerning Europe and/or the individual Countries within Europe.

It does make me smile when I hear, especially at truckstops, guys talking about England as a Socialist Country - makes it sound like I lived behind the Iron Curtain or something LOL.

Best Regards

Sue

 

[layoutshooter]

Hi Greg

I lived in the same small town of Thame LOL.
You can walk around the whole of Thame in 10 minutes

I see he is fighting the good fight there at the mo - 'cos they are wanting to build more houses on farmland with no thought to adding to the infrastruture.

Left there last October to marry Tony and "settle" in NC (I think we have been back to house Oh at least 6 times LOL

I am finding this thread really interesting inasmuch as what is known concerning Europe and/or the individual Countries within Europe.

It does make me smile when I hear, especially at truckstops, guys talking about England as a Socialist Country - makes it sound like I lived behind the Iron Curtain or something LOL.

Best Regards

Sue

Hey Sue, you need to get your own log on!! The more the merrier!!!

Of course England is socialist, in a more benign way than some, but socialist none the less. Just as we are becoming socialist in this country. Social Security, Obama Care, welfare etc are ALL socialist programs.

 

[TonyG]

Hey Sue, you need to get your own log on!! The more the merrier!!!


Of course England is socialist, in a more benign way than some, but socialist none the less. Just as we are becoming socialist in this country. Social Security, Obama Care, welfare etc are ALL socialist programs.

LOL there's a thought - I will have to think of a very proper name


You see, I don't look at it like that all - its the way its always been for me ( and I'm no spring chicken LOL).

Yes there is a lot of things that are not right in UK politics - but isn't that the case everywhere - every party knows better, can do better - but never actually does.

The most difficult thing for me to understand here in the US is healthcare - Healthcare is not just for those who can afford it - to me that's wrong (my personal opinion - so please don't get angry)

As you know we have the NHS and ok it isn't perfect by any means, but you do have your own doctor (your choice), that you can see at anytime - no charge, you can have a consultant visit - no charge, hospital - x-rays, physio, etc - no charge, you can have an operation - no charge, precriptions filled - a small charge (and I mean a few dollars)
Even visitors to the UK have all the above.
And, if you want to, you can have your own private health insurance aswell, it does not stop you from using the NHS - but if anything should go awry for you (for example you need an operation) you can go through your private insurance to lessen the waiting period.

 

[layoutshooter]

LOL there's a thought - I will have to think of a very proper name


You see, I don't look at it like that all - its the way its always been for me ( and I'm no spring chicken LOL).

Yes there is a lot of things that are not right in UK politics - but isn't that the case everywhere - every party knows better, can do better - but never actually does.

The most difficult thing for me to understand here in the US is healthcare - Healthcare is not just for those who can afford it - to me that's wrong (my personal opinion - so please don't get angry)

As you know we have the NHS and ok it isn't perfect by any means, but you do have your own doctor (your choice), that you can see at anytime - no charge, you can have a consultant visit - no charge, hospital - x-rays, physio, etc - no charge, you can have an operation - no charge, precriptions filled - a small charge (and I mean a few dollars)
Even visitors to the UK have all the above.
And, if you want to, you can have your own private health insurance aswell, it does not stop you from using the NHS - but if anything should go awry for you (for example you need an operation) you can go through your private insurance to lessen the waiting period.

I look forward to seeing your own sign on.

I would not get angry at your opinion and yes, it is how you were raised. I was not.

I did live under the NHS. I saw the good sides AND the bad sides of it. NO system is perfect. I prefer the freedom of ours PRIOR to government control.

There is NO such thing as a "no charge" hospital. You pay as much or more under NHS. All you have done was change the point that you pay for it. TAXES, VERY HIGH taxes cover your costs.

They were higher when I lived there, they dropped a bit while I lived there. I knew many "tax lazy" Brits for lack of a better term. They would work up to a certain wage for the week then take the rest of the week off due to the tax hit if they earned any more. That system tends to stifle productivity. At least, that is what I saw when I lived there. One of my friends was a "silver smith" and jewelry maker. He was good. He did a lot of work for the Royal family. He often would only work one or two days a week due the the tax hit. High tax rates are business killers and almost always lead to reduced revenues.

Your history is very different from ours. You are, or were, a British "subject". We have never been subjects here. We are NOT subject to rule of a "family" or government. Here we, at least we used too, control our government. Europe has been subject to the rule of basically the same royal family for centuries.

It is hard to compare mindsets. Totally different. That is NOT meant to put you down or anything like that. It just is how it is.
Many of us just think differently. Different histories.

 

[TonyG]

I look forward to seeing your own sign on.

I would not get angry at your opinion and yes, it is how you were raised. I was not.

I did live under the NHS. I saw the good sides AND the bad sides of it. NO system is perfect. I prefer the freedom of ours PRIOR to government control.

There is NO such thing as a "no charge" hospital. You pay as much or more under NHS. All you have done was change the point that you pay for it. TAXES, VERY HIGH taxes cover your costs.

They were higher when I lived there, they dropped a bit while I lived there. I knew many "tax lazy" Brits for lack of a better term. They would work up to a certain wage for the week then take the rest of the week off due to the tax hit if they earned any more. That system tends to stifle productivity. At least, that is what I saw when I lived there. One of my friends was a "silver smith" and jewelry maker. He was good. He did a lot of work for the Royal family. He often would only work one or two days a week due the the tax hit. High tax rates are business killers and almost always lead to reduced revenues.

Your history is very different from ours. You are, or were, a British "subject". We have never been subjects here. We are NOT subject to rule of a "family" or government. Here we, at least we used too, control our government. Europe has been subject to the rule of basically the same royal family for centuries.

It is hard to compare mindsets. Totally different. That is NOT meant to put you down or anything like that. It just is how it is.
Many of us just think differently. Different histories.

I agree on many of your points - and Hey we are all friends here, nothing said here is meant to offend anyone -so its all good
(see I'm learning some American terms LOL)

What I was trying to point out, & not very well , is that there is no charge at point of contact for anyone.

Thus meaning that the un-employed, visitors, pre-existing conditions, teenagers who have yet to find employment, whoever it is - does not need to worry about getting healthcare - its there when needed.
To me that is reassuring , not socialist, communist or anything else 'ist LOL


How about "From across the pond" for my tag LOL

 

[greg334]

Hi Greg

I lived in the same small town of Thame LOL.
You can walk around the whole of Thame in 10 minutes

I see he is fighting the good fight there at the mo - 'cos they are wanting to build more houses on farmland with no thought to adding to the infrastruture.

Hi Sue.

I understand there are some weird problems going on there and up north in the country too.

What really surprises me about development over there are cases like this while fighting the green laning issue with off roaders. Was invited to Cornwall last year, about to get on the plane and got a call the event as cancelled due to the argument going on between the landowner and the environmentalist.

Left there last October to marry Tony and "settle" in NC (I think we have been back to house Oh at least 6 times LOL

Congrats. Hope you like it here.

I am finding this thread really interesting inasmuch as what is known concerning Europe and/or the individual Countries within Europe.

Well the history is interesting, the differences are striking at times but Europe is not the Europe that my grandparents left.

It does make me smile when I hear, especially at truckstops, guys talking about England as a Socialist Country - makes it sound like I lived behind the Iron Curtain or something LOL.

BUT it is, isn't it?

The thing is a lot of people seem not to see is a difference between socialist in Russia and those in England or France, many assume it is all the same but it is not. Russia for example never reached communism, but they were socialist with a totalitarian government where England has representation of the people. The thing that gets me is many on this side of the pond think when Attlee got health care passed, it was the start of socialism in England. It seems George got a lot done and so did Gladstone a couple decades earlier.

No, Soviet citizens work, they HAVE too. Many do NOT do good work, they only do what is required to live. They tend, at least over there, to show little drive. It is often taught out of them.

Actually there is a lot more to it than that. It wasn't just a simple work or die command but there was a lot who did better themselves and did show drive. If the laziness was ingrained in their culture, then when they got here, it would have been the same thing but wasn't.

I don't get the "race" thing you are talking about. ALL of the welfare rangers and medicade mamma's in my family are of one race. They are the ONLY ones that I personally know.

Well I won't get into it, it would offend a lot of people here, one in particular and I may be banned. There fact is that we justify a lot of things and use stereotypes to illustrate problems through our misplaced guilt like welfare but in truth there seems to be a clear problem within some groups who are jealous of the other equal groups who are working hard to achieve the real American dream and keep it.

I do know that there are many of other races too. I just don't know any. Lazy in the United States transcends race. Dependence on government for every thing does as well. All you have to do is go to a UAW meeting to see that.

BUT the UAW is not the government and that is one point that supports my position, the UAW member is just a group who think they are special and have become dependent on others to decide and do a lot of the work for them.

I agree, we should have stayed OUT of WWI. Once we were involved we should have done more, although it might not have been possible, to make the treaty far less harsh on Germany.

Well Wilson was part of the problem, and the idea we needed to spread democracy was the other. It was like a self-imposed doctrine of Democracy that we followed.

I think if we didn't consider our 'victory' a victory but put it in context to the real reason Germany sued for peace, AND told France (the aggressor in reality during the peace) to stick it with some of these terms or we will go to war with them, we would have been a lot better off. We had more troops and supplies there and would have easily won any war with France. Don't forget this was the start of our middle east problems too.

 

[layoutshooter]

I agree on many of your points - and Hey we are all friends here, nothing said here is meant to offend anyone -so its all good
(see I'm learning some American terms LOL)

What I was trying to point out, & not very well , is that there is no charge at point of contact for anyone.

Thus meaning that the un-employed, visitors, pre-existing conditions, teenagers who have yet to find employment, whoever it is - does not need to worry about getting healthcare - its there when needed.
To me that is reassuring , not socialist, communist or anything else 'ist LOL


How about "From across the pond" for my tag LOL

That might be a good name, think on it for a bit. No need to hurry.

There are a few misconceptions here, enhanced by our press, about our health care, or lack of it. NO one is turned away from an emergency room, not even illegal trespassers.

Many in this country CHOSE not to have health care. They prefer to party, smoke, do drugs, drink or get tattoo's with their money rather then buy insurance. Three cars, mini-mansions, multiple cell phones, cable tv are all more important to many.

I know only one thing, due to the passage of Obama care, for the first time in my adult life, I might NOT be able to afford insurance for my wife and my self. We have paid all or most of the cost of our insurance since we were married in 1973.

Our systems is not perfect and I don't pretend to think it is. A British style NHS won't work here without a LOT of "heavy handed" government intervention. It is just not our way. At least, that is how I see it.

Welcome to the country by the way! Keep up with the "location" threads, we will likely meet up someday!! I can no longer speak any "Yorkshire" so we will have to stick with 'Merican, I don't speak English very well!!

 

[layoutshooter]

I agree on many of your points - and Hey we are all friends here, nothing said here is meant to offend anyone -so its all good
(see I'm learning some American terms LOL)

What I was trying to point out, & not very well , is that there is no charge at point of contact for anyone.

Thus meaning that the un-employed, visitors, pre-existing conditions, teenagers who have yet to find employment, whoever it is - does not need to worry about getting healthcare - its there when needed.
To me that is reassuring , not socialist, communist or anything else 'ist LOL


How about "From across the pond" for my tag LOL

That might be a good name, think on it for a bit. No need to hurry.

There are a few misconceptions here, enhanced by our press, about our health care, or lack of it. NO one is turned away from an emergency room, not even illegal trespassers.

Many in this country CHOSE not to have health care. They prefer to party, smoke, do drugs, drink or get tattoo's with their money rather then buy insurance. Three cars, mini-mansions, multiple cell phones, cable tv are all more important to many.

I know only one thing, due to the passage of Obama care, for the first time in my adult life, I might NOT be able to afford insurance for my wife and my self. We have paid all or most of the cost of our insurance since we were married in 1973.

Our systems is not perfect and I don't pretend to think it is. A British style NHS won't work here without a LOT of "heavy handed" government intervention. It is just not our way. At least, that is how I see it.

Welcome to the country by the way! Keep up with the "location" threads, we will likely meet up someday!! I can no longer speak any "Yorkshire" so we will have to stick with 'Merican, I don't speak English very well!!

 

[EnglishLady]

That might be a good name, think on it for a bit. No need to hurry.


Welcome to the country by the way! Keep up with the "location" threads, we will likely meet up someday!! I can no longer speak any "Yorkshire" so we will have to stick with 'Merican, I don't speak English very well!!

Thank you

With Tony's help we came up with this name for me

I'm glad you don't speak with a Yorkshire accent anymore 'cos I couldn't understand them anyway LOL.

Looking forward to meeting up

Regards

Sue

 

[layoutshooter]

Thank you

With Tony's help we came up with this name for me

I'm glad you don't speak with a Yorkshire accent anymore 'cos I couldn't understand them anyway LOL.

Looking forward to meeting up

Regards

Sue

I knew who this was as soon as I seen the name pop up!! Good choice. Now, if you only have a good recipe for triffle.

 

[EnglishLady]

Hi Sue.

Was invited to Cornwall last year, about to get on the plane and got a call the event as cancelled due to the argument going on between the landowner and the environmentalist.



Congrats. Hope you like it here.

Thank you Greg.

When you were in Cornwall did you have a Cream Tea? The cream from Devon is way better LOL.
See we have our own little "war" with Cornwall

Regards

Sue

 

[layoutshooter]

I remember now, I used to fish near Winchester when I fished the Itchen. Remembering takes SO much longer these days!

 

[EnglishLady]

I knew who this was as soon as I seen the name pop up!! Good choice. Now, if you only have a good recipe for triffle.

ROFL

I think you mean Trifle - and I make a mean trifle though I do say so myself

 

[layoutshooter]

ROFL

I think you mean Trifle - and I make a mean trifle though I do say so myself

Yeah WELL, who ever said spelling was my strong suit!! That was one of our favorites when we lived there!!

 

[EnglishLady]

Yeah WELL, who ever said spelling was my strong suit!! That was one of our favorites when we lived there!!

High tea with cakes, sandwiches, TRIFLE, and of course Earl Grey Tea

Oh btw Tony reminds me that we are way off thread here LOL

 

[layoutshooter]

High tea with cakes, sandwiches, TRIFLE, and of course Earl Grey Tea

Oh btw Tony reminds me that we are way off thread here LOL

Oh well, I am FAMOUS for getting off track on threads. A good cheese and port for desert was something else I enjoyed. I really liked Stilton.

 

[EnglishLady]

Oh well, I am FAMOUS for getting off track on threads. A good cheese and port for desert was something else I enjoyed. I really liked Stilton.

LOL with as many posts as you have done it had to happen I suppose LOL

Port yes, stilton YUK

Good old farmhouse mature cheddar - that's the ticket

Actually found some mature cheddar from DEVON in Giant Eagle grocery store in Ohio I think.
Great place - had a whole aisle of English foods - Tony's wallet went flat

 

[layoutshooter]

If you find yourself in Erie, PA, sometime try to stop in this place. It is VERY unique. Fun and crazy. They have a LONG wall of international cheeses in there and the prices at this place are quite good.


Erie County Farms

814-456-1459
2256 Broad St
Erie, PA 16503