Obama gets standing ovation!

greg334

Veteran Expediter
....this is a forum with a GOP agenda.

Doug, why do you think it is a "GOP" agenda?

Many of us are not nor ever were followers of the GOP and this is where you and other liberals seem to lump into the same bucket anyone who doesn't agree with the democratic agenda.

DOn't make the mistake that others make, the GOP is a dead fish, stinks a lot and rotting away but a lot of people don't want deal with what democrats have in store for us, they are tired of the entire mess and you have to give a lot of people credit for being passionate.
 

DougTravels

Not a Member
Doug, why do you think it is a "GOP" agenda?

Many of us are not nor ever were followers of the GOP and this is where you and other liberals seem to lump into the same bucket anyone who doesn't agree with the democratic agenda.

DOn't make the mistake that others make, the GOP is a dead fish, stinks a lot and rotting away but a lot of people don't want deal with what democrats have in store for us, they are tired of the entire mess and you have to give a lot of people credit for being passionate.

Ok maybe GOP agenda was not quite the right wording, how about anti-Democrat, anti-Obama, anti-woman's right to choose, anti-gun control, pro tax cuts for the wealthiest Americans. Unless I missed someone, I believe all the mods that I have seen post share these views, oh wait that is the GOP agenda.
My point was LDB says in one thread NO PERSONAL ATTACKS then personally attacks me.

Greg you don't believe that there is an unbalanced amount of "Right Thinking" Mods here?
 

Poorboy

Expert Expediter
Ok maybe GOP agenda was not quite the right wording, how about anti-Democrat, anti-Obama, anti-woman's right to choose, anti-gun control, pro tax cuts for the wealthiest Americans. Unless I missed someone, I believe all the mods that I have seen post share these views, oh wait that is the GOP agenda.
My point was LDB says in one thread NO PERSONAL ATTACKS then personally attacks me.

Greg you don't believe that there is an unbalanced amount of "Right Thinking" Mods here?

It appears that you are Suffering from your last 8 lines in your Avatar Lol :D And NO, This is Not a Personal Attack
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
Ok maybe GOP agenda was not quite the right wording, how about anti-Democrat, anti-Obama, anti-woman's right to choose, anti-gun control, pro tax cuts for the wealthiest Americans. Unless I missed someone, I believe all the mods that I have seen post share these views, oh wait that is the GOP agenda.

Well Doug, the anti-democrat thing is alright. After years of anti-republican/everyone, the dems deserve some payback.

People don't like Obama just like many didn't like Bush but we are supposed to overlook human nature because it is racist or that is what many want us to feel like when we openly dislike the man and what he stands for. Right now everyone is falling over themselves with him, it is kind of sad when you look at the bigger picture and what level of intellegnece some of these people have. I don't come up with my position easily about Obama, I believe that he is smart but his past shaped him and he is like others I have studied. His opponent and Obama were too close alike and that is where I think Palin came in at - balance.

Anti-womens right to choose? well that's another thing - let me put it to you another way, I don't care and there is a reason why I don't care right now - I can't change it. I have seen first hand the aftermath of the procedures, if you want a detailed accounting, I can PM you and it may change your mind but I digress. I can't change a thing until my voice is heard again and my position is simple, the ruling that made abortion possible was privacy rights and if you have the same privacy rights with your doctor over some made up interpretation of the constitution, then it has to extend into other medical areas like doctor assisted suicide and medical records privacy but it doesn't. The rights of the person sits with the states, not the federal government and until that changes, I have no voice.

I am for this type of gun control Doug, nothing. I believe that our society is messed up and any controls put on the people will further mess it up. Instead I would like to see a real border, a large percentage of crime comes from the people who actually invade our country and I would like to see a return of Hard Labor and Real Punishment to deter criminals. That is crime control.

Doug have you ever been employed by a poor person? I would believe you could not be if it was possible. But I also believe that there is no reason why you should care what others pay, because if you did you would be screaming at the Hollywood crowd about the excessive amount of money they cheat the tax payers out of every year.

My point was LDB says in one thread NO PERSONAL ATTACKS then personally attacks me.
I don't know, I wasn't paying attention to the 'discussion' enough to chime in.

Greg you don't believe that there is an unbalanced amount of "Right Thinking" Mods here?

Actually maybe... possibly .....I think there is a point to be made about balance in everything, maybe even government.
 

wellarmed

Not a Member
I don't know Doug or LDB personally but I have noticed if doug says it's partly sunny LDB would say it's partly cloudy.
 

LDB

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Actually it's often partly sunny where I am. I just am unencumbered by glasses that cause me to think it's perfectly clear and sunny 100% of the time regardless of the true climatological conditions. I don't automatically disagree with Doug regardless of what some may think. I often do disagree with him because lately his posts are fawning over Obama to the extreme, beyond anything realistic. I recently posted a thread giving Obama credit for saying the right things about Israel and Iran. I frequently criticize Bush for certain of his actions and policies. Nobody gets an automatic 100% from me or an automatic 0 either. Everyone falls somewhere along that scale. Doug on the other hand gives Obama an automatic 382% and Bush an automatic -117%. Therein lies the difference.
 

cheri1122

Veteran Expediter
Driver
So, to Cheri, Doug, et, al, to criticize religion and the religious, and all that they represent as being the root of all things bad throughout history, to say that the world would be a better place without religion and the religious, and then to praise these same religious students as being "bright and educated" simply because to do so serves your own purpose, it's hardly a stretch at all to call that hypocritical. It's actually the definition of it.[/QUOTE]

The only thing I've ever said is the root of all evil is greed, not religion. I believe I've even said that I envy the comfort that religious folks find in their beliefs, but I can't simply manufacture faith - it's there, or it isn't.
I get pretty tired of being called a "Bush hater" and presumed to be a slavish devotee of Obama, when neither characterization is accurate.
I don't recall 'Bush haters' being around until after the man had proven himself incompetent, [though many were pretty upset about the Fla election results, and understandably so, in a state governed by Bush's brother] but Obama is reviled before he's had a chance to actually DO anything, and that's just wrong.
Maybe Obama will turn out to be a huge disappointment - he is, after all, a politician, but I wish folks would judge him on what he actually does, rather than what they believe he's going to do.
 

LDB

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
but Obama is reviled before he's had a chance to actually DO anything, and that's just wrong.

Actually, Obama is criticized based on his Senate career, his associations, his writings etc. and there's nothing wrong with that other than it's being applied to Obama, the media sweetheart, the messiah, the annointed one.
 

DougTravels

Not a Member
No, it was Sudan that offered him up to Clinton.

Could you please prove this in detail. I have heard this time and time again. I punched it in to fact chect.org and guess what, it is either not true or it did not matter at that time, do to no evidence against him.

From Fact Check.org

January 18, 2008
Q: Did Bill Clinton pass up a chance to kill Osama bin Laden?
Was Bill Clinton offered bin Laden on "a silver platter"? Did he refuse? Was there cause at the time?
A: Probably not, and it would not have mattered anyway as there was no evidence at the time that bin Laden had committed any crimes against American citizens.
Let’s start with what everyone agrees on: In April 1996, Osama bin Laden was an official guest of the radical Islamic government of Sudan – a government that had been implicated in the attacks on the World Trade Center in 1993. By 1996, with the international community treating Sudan as a pariah, the Sudanese government attempted to patch its relations with the United States. At a secret meeting in a Rosslyn, Va., hotel, the Sudanese minister of state for defense, Maj. Gen. Elfatih Erwa, met with CIA operatives, where, among other things, they discussed Osama bin Laden.

It is here that things get murky. Erwa claims that he offered to hand bin Laden over to the United States. Key American players – President Bill Clinton, then-National Security Adviser Sandy Berger and Director of Counterterrorism Richard Clarke among them – have testified there were no "credible offers" to hand over bin Laden. The 9/11 Commission found "no credible evidence" that Erwa had ever made such an offer. On the other hand, Lawrence Wright, in his Pulitzer Prize-winning "The Looming Tower," flatly states that Sudan did make such an offer. Wright bases his judgment on an interview with Erwa and notes that those who most prominently deny Erwa's claims were not in fact present for the meeting.

Wright and the 9/11 Commission do agree that the Clinton administration encouraged Sudan to deport bin Laden back to Saudi Arabia and spent 10 weeks trying to convince the Saudi government to accept him. One Clinton security official told The Washington Post that they had "a fantasy" that the Saudi government would quietly execute bin Laden. When the Saudis refused bin Laden’s return, Clinton officials convinced the Sudanese simply to expel him, hoping that the move would at least disrupt bin Laden’s activities.

Much of the controversy stems from claims that President Clinton made in a February 2002 speech and then retracted in his 2004 testimony to the 9/11 Commission. In the 2002 speech Clinton seems to admit that the Sudanese government offered to turn over bin Laden:

Clinton: So we tried to be quite aggressive with them [al Qaeda]. We got – well, Mr. bin Laden used to live in Sudan. He was expelled from Saudi Arabia in 1991, then he went to Sudan. And we'd been hearing that the Sudanese wanted America to start dealing with them again. They released him. At the time, 1996, he had committed no crime against America, so I did not bring him here because we had no basis on which to hold him, though we knew he wanted to commit crimes against America. So I pleaded with the Saudis to take him, 'cause they could have. But they thought it was a hot potato and they didn't and that's how he wound up in Afghanistan.

Clinton later claimed to have misspoken and stated that there had never been an offer to turn over bin Laden. It is clear, however, that Berger, at least, did consider the possibility of bringing bin Laden to the U.S., but, as he told The Washington Post in 2001, "The FBI did not believe we had enough evidence to indict bin Laden at that time, and therefore opposed bringing him to the United States." According to NewsMax.com, Berger later emphasized in an interview with WABC Radio that, while administration officials had discussed whether or not they had ample evidence to indict bin Laden, that decision "was not pursuant to an offer by the Sudanese."

So on one side, we have Clinton administration officials who say that there were no credible offers on the table, and on the other, we have claims by a Sudanese government that was (and still is) listed as an official state sponsor of terrorism. It’s possible, of course, that both sides are telling the truth: It could be that Erwa did make an offer, but the offer was completely disingenuous. What is clear is that the 9/11 Commission report totally discounts the Sudanese claims. Unless further evidence arises, that has to be the final word.

Ultimately, however, it doesn’t matter. What is not in dispute at all is the fact that, in early 1996, American officials regarded Osama bin Laden as a financier of terrorism and not as a mastermind largely because, at the time, there was no real evidence that bin Laden had harmed American citizens. So even if the Sudanese government really did offer to hand bin Laden over, the U.S. would have had no grounds for detaining him. In fact, the Justice Department did not secure an indictment against bin Laden until 1998 – at which point Clinton did order a cruise missile attack on an al Qaeda camp in an attempt to kill bin Laden.

We have to be careful about engaging in what historians call "Whig history," which is the practice of assuming that historical figures value exactly the same things that we do today. It's a fancy term for those "why didn't someone just shoot Hitler in 1930?" questions that one hears in dorm-room bull sessions. The answer, of course, is that no one knew quite how bad Hitler was in 1930. The same is true of bin Laden in 1996.

Correction: We originally answered this question with a flat 'yes' early this week, based on the account in "The Looming Tower," but an alert reader pointed out to us the more tangled history laid out in the 9/11 Commission report. We said flatly that Sudan had made such an offer. We have deleted our original answer and are posting this corrected version in its place.
 
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