Obama +1 point

LDB

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
I have said all along that if/when Obama earned and deserved it I'd recognize him for whatever it happens to be. In this case it is his statement denouncing anyone who denies the Holocaust actually took place. Unfortunately his speeches also included excessive apologies for America and to Muslims so overall he scored his usual borderline failing grade but on the Holocaust issue specifically he did well based on the report I heard.

Unlike those who can't express a thought that doesn't include Bush bashing at the 100% level I can and will give Obama positive credit if warranted. This time it was on that specific issue.
 

Rabbit

Expert Expediter
Near as I can tell, he apologized to them for us believing that democracy and our way of life is superior to the way they live and govern themselves. It's not something that can be quoted in a line or two, but IMO was clearly the tone of his speech as a whole. Many of his other speeches follow this line, as well.
 

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
Near as I can tell, he apologized to them for us believing that democracy and our way of life is superior to the way they live and govern themselves. It's not something that can be quoted in a line or two, but IMO was clearly the tone of his speech as a whole. Many of his other speeches follow this line, as well.

Boy I bet some of our, greater then thou, super Americans were ticked with that statement...:rolleyes:
 

LDB

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
The overall tone of his speeches and comments are apologetic to Muslims and undermine the fight against those who are intent on killing us all.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
The overall tone of his speeches and comments are apologetic to Muslims and undermine the fight against those who are intent on killing us all.
I dunno. Have you read his responses from Muslims (and Jews, for that matter). Reaction is a little mixed, except from the Taliban.


Obama speech to Muslims deceptive, Taliban says | World | Reuters

The Taliban said on Saturday that U.S. President Barack Obama's speech to the Muslim world was full of "deceptive slogans" and did nothing to change relations between America and Muslims.

"His occupation and transgressing forces continue to kill, torture and arrest Muslims in Afghanistan and Iraq, trample upon their deserved rights with their feet, mercilessly kill them for defending their rights and throw them in the most horrible prisons in the world."

Obama's address, lasting almost an hour, was merely the "continuation of the previous deceptive slogans of America", the message (on the Taliban's Web site) said.

No one will ever accuse the Taliban of waffling.
 

Dreammaker

Seasoned Expediter
I missed his apology to Muslims, what did he apologize for?

In answer to your question:



Printer Friendly

June 6, 2009
The Age of Middle East Atonement
Therapeutic efforts to disguise the truth never really work.
by Victor Davis Hanson
National Review Online

President Obama made an earnest effort — as is his way in matters of discord — to split the difference with the Islamic world. His speech essentially amounted to: “We did that, you did this, tit-for-tat, now we’re even, and can’t we all just get along?” He should be congratulated for expressing a desire for peace and for gently reminding the Muslim world of the way to reform, even if he did so while inflating Western sins.

But the problem with such moral equivalence is that it equates things that are, well, not equal — and therefore ends up not being moral at all.

To pull it off, one must distort both the past and the present for the presumed higher good of getting along. In the 1930s, British intellectuals performed feats of intellectual gymnastics in trying to contextualize Hitler’s complaints against the Versailles Treaty, assignment of guilt for the First World War, and French bellicosity — straining to overlook the intrinsic dangers of National Socialism for the higher good of avoiding another Somme. Over the short term, such revisionism worked; over the longer term, it ensured a highly destructive war.

Whatever a well-meaning President Obama thinks, occasional American outbursts against Muslims are not analogous with the terrorism directed at Westerners or the hostility toward Christianity shown in most of the Muslim world. Try flying into Saudi Arabia with a Bible, as compared to traveling to San Francisco with a Koran. One can easily forsake Christianity; one can never safely leave Islam. European worries about headscarves are not the equivalent of the Gulf states’ harassment of practicing Christians. Sorry, they’re just not.

Pace Obama, Arab learning in the Middle Ages, while impressive, did not really fuel either the Renaissance or the Enlightenment. If anything, the arrival in Europe of the learned of Byzantium fleeing Islam over two centuries was a far stronger catalyst for rediscovery of classical values, while enlightened European sympathy for Balkan peoples enslaved by the Ottomans rekindled romantic interest in Hellenism in the 18th and 19th centuries.

Colonialism and the Cold War — both of which have now been over for decades — do not account for present Arab pathologies. The far more pernicious Baathism, Nasserism, Pan-Arabism, and Islamism were all efforts, in varying degrees, to graft ideas of European socialism and Communism onto indigenous Arab and Muslim roots.

Today, Russia and China are much harder on Muslims than is the West. (Consider Russia’s actions in Chechnya and China’s treatment of the Uighurs.) Neither country pays any attention to Muslims’ grievances, and therefore Muslims respect and fear Russia and China far more than they do the United States.

There are no Arab coffeehouse discussions today about the nearly 1 million Muslims killed over two decades by the Soviets in Afghanistan and the Russian government in Chechnya, yet there is constant haranguing over Abu Ghraib, where not a single inmate was killed by rogue American guards. In short, neither logic nor morality is in abundance on the Arab Street, and conjuring up American felonies will not change that.

“On the one hand, on the other hand” — what Greek rhetoricians knew as men/de — when delivered in mellifluous tones, can suggest a path to reconciliation. But denial of fundamental differences leads nowhere. Our problems with the Middle East will dissipate, as have to varying degrees our problems with Japan, Southeast Asia, South Korea, and South America, when the region adopts, in part or in toto, open markets, consensual government, and human rights. Until then, we are in an uneasy and dangerous waiting period.

Conflating Western misdemeanors with Middle Eastern felonies is classical conflict-resolution theory, and laudably magnanimous. But privately the world knows that Muslims are treated better in the West than Christians are in Muslim countries. That Muslims migrate to the lands of Westerners, and not vice versa. That disputes over a border between Palestinians and Israelis do not explain the unhappiness of the Arab masses, suffering from state-caused poverty and wretchedness. That American military assistance to Afghanistan, Bosnia, Kosovo, Kuwait, and Somalia, direct aid to Egypt, Jordan, and the Palestinians, and moral condemnation of Chinese, Russian, and Balkan treatment of Muslims, coupled with a generous U.S. immigration policy, are not really cause for apology or atonement.

In short, few Arab leaders wish to give a “speech to the West.” They would have to take responsibility, directly or indirectly, for either fostering or appeasing radical Islam, while denying their culpability for its decades of mass murdering. They would also have to lament the global economic havoc caused in part by oil cartels and energy price-fixing.

President Obama’s intent is noble, but therapeutic efforts to disguise the truth never really work. We will see how the short-term good created by his therapeutic speechmaking compares to the long-term harm caused by telling the Muslim world, once again, that its problems were largely created by us — and, therefore, that we are largely responsible for providing the remedies.

Neither is true.

©2009 Victor Davis Hanson
 

LDB

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Come on Doug. You aren't that stupid. You've had four responses pointing out that his speeches and position are of an apologetic nature. He didn't hold a special press conference and say "Mr. and Mrs. Muslim, I apologize on behalf of myself, my family, Doug and the nation", at least that I know of. So please don't come in playing dumb and repeating yourself when you aren't that stupid.
 

Dreammaker

Seasoned Expediter
From dictionary.com:

apology

a⋅pol⋅o⋅gy
  /əˈpɒlədʒi/ [uh-pol-uh-jee]–noun, plural -gies.

1. a written or spoken expression of one's regret, remorse, or sorrow for having insulted, failed, injured, or wronged another

If you listen/view his speech and his earlier Al Arabiya interview just after he got elected, you will notice several instances of the above definition - particularly, his highlighting the U.S.'s 1953 involvement in the overthrow of the fledgling Iranian democratic government. If you read the story, All the Shah's Men, you will note the one of FDR's nephews was the CIA agent involved in that plot.

Here's the full story:

Obama admits US involvement in 1953 Iran coup

2 days ago

CAIRO (AFP) — US President Barack Obama made a major gesture of conciliation to Iran on Thursday when he admitted US involvement in the 1953 coup which overthrew the government of Prime Minister Mohammad Mossadegh.

"In the middle of the Cold War, the United States played a role in the overthrow of a democratically elected Iranian government," Obama said in a keynote speech to the Muslim world in Cairo.

It was the first time a serving US president had publicly admitted American involvement in the coup.

The US Central Intelligence Agency, with British backing, masterminded the coup after Mossadegh nationalised the oil industry, run until then by the British-owned Anglo-Iranian Oil Company.

For many Iranians, the coup demonstrated duplicity by the United States, which presented itself as a defender of freedom but did not hesitate to use underhand methods to get rid of a democratically elected government to suit its own economic and strategic interests.

Washington went on to become the major backer of Shah Mohammad Reza Pahlavi, who was overthrown in the Islamic revolution of 1979.

Relations between the two countries have been severed ever since the revolution's aftermath and former president George W. Bush made the Tehran government part of his "axis of evil" with Saddam Hussein's Iraq and Stalinist North Korea.

But since he took office earlier this year, Obama has made repeated overtures to Iran, offering it a dialogue on its nuclear programme and other outstanding issues.

On Thursday Obama did not conceal the extent of the differences between the two governments but emphasised his readiness to try to overcome them through diplomacy.

"For many years, Iran has defined itself in part by its opposition to my country, and there is in fact a tumultuous history between us," the US president said.

"Since the Islamic revolution, Iran has played a role in acts of hostage-taking and violence against US troops and civilians. This history is well known.

"Rather than remain trapped in the past, I've made it clear to Iran's leaders and people that my country is prepared to move forward. The question now is not what Iran is against, but rather what future it wants to build."

Shortly after Obama's inauguration on January 20, Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad demanded apologies for "crimes" he said the United States had committed against Iran, starting with the 1953 coup.

Arab American Institute President James Zogby said that although Obama's admission of US involvement in the coup added little to historical knowledge as it was already well known, it remained an important gesture to Iran.

"There is no surprise," Zogby said when asked about the fact of CIA involvement,

But he added that Obama's admission of it was a "very important statement, it's the beginning of closing the chapter."
 

Dreammaker

Seasoned Expediter
You tell me, Doug. I say Pakistan, you say pockistawn. Same longitudinal/latitudinal readings, different words. If it looks, smells, waddles, craps, and quacks like one, then it sure looks like it to me. But, you know, I've been wrong before and will be again. Something to do with available information and willingness to learn. So, I guess, in the end, we should call Barry and ask him what he meant. Until then we are wasting valuable internet bandwidth and personal time tilting at windmills. Great entertainment. Better than a grade B horror flick. Thanks for your zest. Don't ever give it up. Makes life interesting.
 

DougTravels

Not a Member
You tell me, Doug. I say Pakistan, you say pockistawn. Same longitudinal/latitudinal readings, different words. If it looks, smells, waddles, craps, and quacks like one, then it sure looks like it to me. But, you know, I've been wrong before and will be again. Something to do with available information and willingness to learn. So, I guess, in the end, we should call Barry and ask him what he meant. Until then we are wasting valuable internet bandwidth and personal time tilting at windmills. Great entertainment. Better than a grade B horror flick. Thanks for your zest. Don't ever give it up. Makes life interesting.

Admitting equals apology??

Bush admits we attacked Iraq does that he mean he is sorry?
We all know he should be but I am betting he is not.
 

DougTravels

Not a Member
I have said all along that if/when Obama earned and deserved it I'd recognize him for whatever it happens to be. In this case it is his statement denouncing anyone who denies the Holocaust actually took place. Unfortunately his speeches also included excessive apologies for America and to Muslims so overall he scored his usual borderline failing grade but on the Holocaust issue specifically he did well based on the report I heard.

Unlike those who can't express a thought that doesn't include Bush bashing at the 100% level I can and will give Obama positive credit if warranted. This time it was on that specific issue.

The thread starter says that there have been excessive apologies still haven't heard 1 apology excessive or otherwise.
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
Doug, you must be so deep in the hole of propaganda that you defend the undefendable.

He is trying to humble himself before the Arab world, not just the Muslim population and he is going to screw the country doing it.

I know you don't get this, but their culture is about respect, strength and power, which goes hand in hand. The will listen to people who wheeled the power and show respect to those who show strength and use their strength and power as a leverage for discussions (a good film to show this is Lawrence of Arabia because you need to see it) but when they have someone admit to things better left unsaid or making speeches with the purpose of bringing peace to a region or country, then they look at it as a weakness. You should go to Wayne state, enroll in some Middle Eastern studies classes and learn instead of acting like a blind follower.
 

DougTravels

Not a Member
Doug, you must be so deep in the hole of propaganda that you defend the undefendable.

Greg, your head is so far up your very own propaganda hole you can't see the light of day.

Are you really that afraid that Obama is going to fix your guys mess and make you look bad?

We had 8 years of your kind of thinking running things and guess what, it did not work.

Your guy left 2 wars a nearly bankrupted country, a shaky Wall Street, crippled Auto Industry, Feeble Banking, Oh yeah and Worldwide contempt for us.
You keep telling us how things should be, when a simple "I'm Sorry" is in order.

You have zero credibility on the issues Mr. George W. Bush supporter.
 

Tennesseahawk

Veteran Expediter
Greg, your head is so far up your very own propaganda hole you can't see the light of day.

Are you really that afraid that Obama is going to fix your guys mess and make you look bad?

Fix OUR guys' mess? Sorry... don't know anyone in here who was in Congress the last 8 years.

We had 8 years of your kind of thinking running things and guess what, it did not work.

Sorry again, but my kind of thinking hasn't been policy since Calvin Coolidge was in office.

Your guy left 2 wars a nearly bankrupted country, a shaky Wall Street, crippled Auto Industry, Feeble Banking, Oh yeah and Worldwide contempt for us.
You keep telling us how things should be, when a simple "I'm Sorry" is in order.

Sorry, but it was Carter, Reagan, Bush Sr, and Clinton who weakened the respect the Muslims have for us; therefore, bringing us 911. Clinton had practically made the intelligence fields inept, causing them to miss the 911 attacks. Do you think for one minute that the Arabs would EVER try that crap with Russia or China? He11 no! They'd get wiped off the face of the Earth! Yet, they'll do it with us, and other Western countries, because they know all we'll do is talk. Strength, AND THE WILLINGNESS TO USE IT, is the ONLY way to keep Arabs from doing what they are doing! At least W stood up for us AFTER the attacks. The best we could've hoped for with Gore is that he'd bore them to death with his global warming crap. :D

You have zero credibility on the issues Mr. George W. Bush supporter.

Sorry, but Bush supporters have a lot more credibility than "Hope and Change".

Sorry... but you're WRONG!!!

There... did I say sorry enough? :rolleyes:
 
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greg334

Veteran Expediter
First Doug, I meant that you fell down that hole everyone seems to fall down and you haven't figured that there is a ladder there to get out of. You have been repeating the same thing over and over and you don't get the part that it makes no difference, they are all the same.

No I am not afraid of anyone fixing the mess our congress and presidents left us. I wish someone would but it has been so far a fight between two political parties for party, they are so close to being one and the same that the people on the outside keep buying the propaganda that the other party is bad without waking up to the mess.

The sad thing is Doug, your list is also caused by the same exact people you put your belief in, there is no one party thought when there is such contempt and corruption. Why are you so set on believing in someone but not the country? Why don't you get that it is your children who are going to pay for Obama's mess, he is the one making it worst without any plan or hope to get it back on track. Remember Doug, saying you have a plan and having a plan are two completely different things.

If you want to talk about the auto companies, let's because I know you are clueless.

The first thing is it was Obama who decided that there will be strings attached on loans that should have never been offered in the first place to any company. It is Obama who put together an auto task force who have no knowledge of the real issues and charged someone to be the auto Czar. It is Obama who illegally intervened in the courts to pay the unions first with both GM and Chrysler. It was Obama who also illegally told a federal judge to make a decision on the sale of Chrysler to Fiat, which is now headed for the supreme court based on a separation of powers issue - the congress didn't approve the sale or the other things that was part of the president's intervention. It was Obama who forced GM to bankruptcy and forced them to sell off viable assets to make a 'leaner, greener GM'. It was Obama who has decided that the union, Canada and the government gets a share of GM but the first line creditors get pennies on the dollar shaking the confidence of our markets so much that there is a backlash over this in other industries that are hurting. It was Obama who has hurt the sales of GM and Chrysler by having the government be involved, most people will not buy a government manufactured vehicle. It Is Obama who thinks that GM will pay back the $120 Billion when it becomes profitable but forgets to tell us that that is impossible if they build cars people won't buy WHICH WAS THE PROBLEM IN THE FIRST PLACE - NO ONE WANTED TO BUY THE CARS THEY WERE BUILDING.
 
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