Moscow warns it could strike Poland over US missile shield

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
The risk of a new era of east-west confrontation triggered by Russia's invasion of Georgia heightened yesterday when Moscow reserved the right to launch a nuclear attack on Poland because it agreed to host US rockets as part of the Pentagon's missile shield.

As Washington accused Russia of "bullying and intimidation" in Georgia and demanded an immediate withdrawal of Russian forces from the small Black Sea neighbour, Russia's deputy chief of staff turned on Warsaw and said it was vulnerable to a Russian rocket attack because of Thursday's pact with the US on the missile defence project.

By deploying, Poland is exposing itself to a strike - 100%," warned Colonel General Anatoly Nogovitsyn. He added that Russia's security doctrine allowed it to use nuclear weapons against an active ally of a nuclear power such as America.

The warning worsened the already dismal mood in relations between Moscow and the west caused by the shock of post-Soviet Russia's first invasion of a foreign country

Angela Merkel, the German chancellor, met Russia's President Dmitry Medvedev on the Black Sea close to Georgia's borders and sent quite a different message, offering a mild rebuke of Moscow.

Some of Russia's actions were not proportionate," she said.

Unlike the Americans and some European states who are saying the Russians should face "consequences" for their invasion, Merkel said negotiations with Moscow on a whole range of issues would continue as before and spread the blame for the conflict. "It is rare that all the blame is on one side. In fact, both sides are probably to blame. That is very important to understand," she said

Rice was much more forthright, saying that the invasion had "profound implications for Russia ... This calls into question what role Russia really plans to play in international politics.

"You can't be a responsible member of institutions which are democratic and underscore democratic values and on the other hand act in this way against one of your neighbours."

The Russians have been refusing to pull back their forces in Georgia until President Mikheil Saakashvili signed the six-point ceasefire plan arranged by President Nicolas Sarkozy of France earlier this week, although the Russians had refused to sign it themselves.

Saakashvili signed yesterday, while accusing the Russians of being "evil" and "21st century barbarians". Rice said Medvedev had also signed it.

"Russia has every time been testing the reaction of the west. It's going to replicate what happened in Georgia elsewhere," said Saakashvili. "We are looking evil directly in the eye. Today this evil is very strong, and very dangerous for everybody, not just for us."

Rice's show of solidarity with Georgia's beleaguered president was theatrically undermined when Russia dispatched a column of armoured personnel carriers towards the Georgian capital.

As the talks were taking place, 10 armoured personnel carriers laden with Russian troops set off from Gori, penetrating to within 20 miles of Tbilisi.

"Georgia has been attacked. Russian forces need to leave Georgia at once," said Rice. The withdrawal "must take place, and take place now ... This is no longer 1968," she added in reference to the Soviet invasion of Czechoslovakia 40 years ago next week.

The ceasefire terms favour the Russians who routed the Georgians. But the secretary of state argued the plan would not affect negotiations over the central territorial dispute between Georgia and the two breakaway pro-Russian provinces of Abkhazia and South Ossetia. The deal allows Russian troops to remain in the two provinces and to mount patrols and "take additional security measures" on Georgian territory beyond the two enclaves.

Senior Russians continued to insist yesterday that Russian troops had not stepped outside South Ossetia and Abkhazia despite the fact they have been deep inside Georgian territory in several places all week.

"Our ground forces never crossed the border of the conflict zone," said Sergei Ivanov, the deputy prime minister.

Moscow also indicated it would resist possible European attempts to deploy international peacekeepers in the contested territories.

"We are not against international peacekeepers," the Russian president said. "But the problem is that the Abkhazians and the Ossetians do not trust anyone except Russian peacekeepers." He also attacked the agreement between Washington and Warsaw on the missile shield and said claims that the shield was aimed at Iran were "fairy tales"

"This clearly demonstrates the deployment of new anti-missile forces in Europe has as its aim the Russian Federation," said Medvedev. "The moment has been well chosen."

The timing of Thursday's agreement on missile defence means that tensions are soaring on Russia's southern and western borders.

Polish armed forces yesterday paraded in Warsaw to mark a rare defeat of the Russians 888 years ago and President Lech Kaczynski hailed the accord on the Pentagon project as a boost for Poland's security.

In return for hosting 10 interceptor rockets said to be intended to destroy any eventual ballistic missile attacks from Iran, Poland is to receive a battery of US Patriot missiles for its air defences and has won a mutual security pact with Washington.

This article appeared in the Guardian on Saturday August 16 2008
 

arkjarhead

Veteran Expediter
I hope they wouldn't be that stupid. As much as I hate to say it here this does sound like something out of the book of Revelations. Where it says you will hear of wars and rumors of wars (paraphrasing). I don't know exactly where it is located. I'll ask my pastor today at church. The Rev might be able to shed more light on the passage than I can.
 

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
I think it's also stupid to push the Russians like that...Maybe we should re-visit the Cuban Missile issue If the US thinks missiles in Poland is ok...then let the Russians put missiles in Cuba....it's the same scenerio...a trapped animal will fight back....
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
The missiles in Poland are NOT the same as the missiles in Cuba. The missles in Poland are part of a DEFENSIVE missile shield that the US in attempting to deploy to keep Iran etc from firing on the west. The system was offered to Russia at no charge. They would have the same protection as Poland. It would not upset the balance of power under the M.A.D. concept, which is what brought on the Anti-Ballistic Missle Treaty. The Cuban missles on the other hand were short range ballistic missles, nukes, targeted at the US and Canada. Yea, you guys too. They were also attempting at that time to build bases all over Central and South America. The short range stuff was emliminated in Europe under the Reagan Administration. The Short range ballistic missle treaty. That treaty got rid of one entire class of missles. Our Pershings and the Soviet SS20's. The treaty was ment to make Europes safer, at least on paper. It was mainly a political chess move on our part to show "good faith" to the Soviets. We were working VERY hard at that time to dis-arm. Yea, OVM, dis-arm. It did NOT make Europe any safer. The Soviets were always capable of "short launching" thier SS25 ICBM's. That missle system was far more accurate and powerful. Those SS25's were based east of the Urals. It prolonged the Cold War by at least two years. HOW? It elminated the huge cost of maintaining the SS20's and allowed them to concentrate on the newer SS25's. Both systems were road launched moble missles. How do I know all of this? I helped to write that treaty. Layoutshooter
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
On a side note, I was working counter-terrorism when "Slick Willy" started his gutting of our defenses. Those cuts were the cause of the intelligence failures that led to the attacks on 9/11. The first programs he cut were the counter-terrorism programs. WHy? They are VERY expensive. Life is not worth much to him. Just ask the babies. Layoutshooter
 

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
Layout...if I didn't post this stuff...how would you get your message out to the good membership? A lot read our goings on but never comment...but I betcha we stimulate thought or even discussions at home and in TS's...and this is a good thing..right?

I am not advocating either way...just putting up for discussion and debate...
 

chefdennis

Veteran Expediter
Thank you Layout. Excellent explaination based on your personal experience and facts.

Russia has no interest in a "Defensive" position in cuba or anywhere else for that matter, just look at their response to poland, it is simply a "aggressors" reaction.

Since russia has "rebuilt itself and as done a **** good job of that also, they now are reverting back to their old ways. The problem nw is that the US is not in a financial position to deal with them as we would have in the past and russia knows that.

Then take in the conspiricy theory that we made a deal with russia to let them " deal" with georgia so that they could gain access to the pipeline from the caspian sea, and they would let us "deal" with iran and uncle "iamadumdass" ...........

Ahh political life, it certainly has its up's and down's....
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Of course we have the finacial ablity to fight them. The problem is our country is suffering from an extreme form of cowerdice. The defense of the nation is the PRIMARY responsibility of the Federal Government. If nessesary we should cut out EVERY program NOT allowed by that document and fund what is required. No money problem then. Let's start by cutting out aid to Russia, Venesualia and anyone else of that mind set. Then all other monies to aid any other country. Then social programs here. In that order.
 

hdxpedx

Veteran Expediter
Fleet Owner
Obumer has bowed down to the BOTH clinton's!! McCLAIN said KGB,,maybe this is a blessing in DISGUISE! Europe understands a COLD winter breeze is a coming, maybe they will stand up against the BEAR! Now the loony tunes can justify a conspiracy losing to McClain because Russian/CHENEY BIG OIL bites them...
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
OVM, I just do not understand where this "STUFF" comes from. It is not correct, not even close. The real story is being surpressed. A VERY scary thing. I do not argue my point on emotion or political beliefs. I aurgue on fact alone. I was there. It took more than 3 years for the nightmares to stop after I quit the "Business" Unlike the majority of our political leaders I had to pass a criminal backround check and pass a polygraph to get my job and to keep it. Do you think Osama Obama could? Hillary? Slick Willy? Ted (kill only babies and women) Kennedy could? McCain was able too for the years he was in the military. I don't know if he could now though. Many died to give you the freedom to say whatever. Many are still dieing today. The average age of death at the "Agency" was 52 when I was there. Stress is a killer. Those people in those positions are ridiculed in the press as "bad". Makes me want to puke. Layoutshooter
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
I don't understand the hatred of Cheney either. All of my dealings with the man showed him to be intelligent, thoughtful and respectful of others. He NEVER looked down on his subordinates. (unlike Clinton) He assumed that if you were assinged to a position that you knew what you were doing. When he had a hunting accident he did not run away. He accepted responibilty for his actions and handled it like a MAN would. Unlike Ted Kennedy. He just ran and hid so he would not have to be test for drunk driving. That is if it was an accident. I am tired of the garbage I hear. Just once I would like to see CNN or any other of our "fair and Unbaised" press tell the truth. And, OMG, give BOTH sides of a given story?
NEVER happen. Layoutshooter
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
Seeing many just don't get this I will have to repeat what I said on another forum.

1 - Putin is calling the shots, not the president or anyone else. He is old world KGB, not the Berea style but the Brezhnev style KGB so he has that modern old soviet attitude when it comes to who says what where within his chain of command.

2 - A soviet general would never ever speak out of turn, they would be removed and shot, and many have just disappeared. Even if he got his orders from above, they would be setting him up to get rid of him in the long run, blaming him for the embarrassment to Russia.

3 - Putin would do the same as the old leaders, he wants to keep his doors open, not have someone in the ranks below him work against him and put others in a position of being defensive and have others posturing to prevent an aggressive take over if their country. This is a guy kills people who speak out against him in public, so a general is not a problem for him.

4 - the idea that they would strike Poland is counter productive to their real goals - to regain power and territory. Causing Poland to glow will not only put a stop to gaining the goal but also cause them to contract in both power and territory just to protect themselves and Putin knows that if they weaken themselves to a point that they can't protect that south east border with China, China will walk right in.

Reality is Georgia is a test, first of many to see what reactions are. Many don’t care to understand the Soviet Union, many think it is dead while we should only think of the future.
 

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
The Chef said..."Russia has no interest in a "Defensive" position in cuba or anywhere else for that matter, just look at their response to poland, it is simply a "aggressors" reaction."

Huh....who's puttin nukes on whos front door?...no matter where "they say they are pointed"

It would seem more protective then anything....
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
GEEZ Greg, did you used to work in the "business"? The "purging" of Russian generals is not often taught in ANY history class and seldom if ever mentioned in open sources. Layoutshooter
 

iceroadtrucker

Veteran Expediter
Driver
Seeing many just don't get this I will have to repeat what I said on another forum.

1 - Putin is calling the shots, not the president or anyone else. He is old world KGB, not the Berea style but the Brezhnev style KGB so he has that modern old soviet attitude when it comes to who says what where within his chain of command.

2 - A soviet general would never ever speak out of turn, they would be removed and shot, and many have just disappeared. Even if he got his orders from above, they would be setting him up to get rid of him in the long run, blaming him for the embarrassment to Russia.

3 - Putin would do the same as the old leaders, he wants to keep his doors open, not have someone in the ranks below him work against him and put others in a position of being defensive and have others posturing to prevent an aggressive take over if their country. This is a guy kills people who speak out against him in public, so a general is not a problem for him.

4 - the idea that they would strike Poland is counter productive to their real goals - to regain power and territory. Causing Poland to glow will not only put a stop to gaining the goal but also cause them to contract in both power and territory just to protect themselves and Putin knows that if they weaken themselves to a point that they can't protect that south east border with China, China will walk right in.

Reality is Georgia is a test, first of many to see what reactions are. Many don’t care to understand the Soviet Union, many think it is dead while we should only think of the future.


Greg I agree on a few of the statements how mother russia supressed the freedom of speech on Generals and so forth
Now as far as the Bear being afarid of China Man U are in history man
China and Russaia have been doing military excercises since last year who do u think is givng russia the money
china wake up man by the way they are loaning us money as well now you have a nice day and please get outa the past
ROFLMAO
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
Well IRT,

Russia does fear China, they are both racing to secure all the oil in the world. Energy is the new power. Once we reach the threashold of not being able to produce our own (we are not there yet), we will face what Europe faces today.

We should maybe look at Georgia a little closer.
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Russia and china have been on again off again, allies and enemies for hundreds of years. For the most part they do not get along. They have "mixed it up" several times in the past and will do so again someday. My load got canceled. Bummer. Layoutshooter
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
Too bad about your load.

Yea the thing about the Chinese, they are even more patient than the Russians. They will wait generations to get something done where the Russians are a bit impatient.
 
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