Low prices are killing this month!ppl bending over like crazy!

[BigStickJr]

John Mueller, Terry need to pipe in on this one.

Or anyone else that officially wears a safety hat.

Right now, although I respect the people and ideas presented, it sounds like the counter of any large truck stop.
And that's not where I like to get my education.

 

[Turtle]

So you are saying, whether or not there is a subsequent HAZMAT load, the driver is required to log until 7 days have expired.

Nope. Not at all. The driver absolutely doesn't have to continue logging after dropping that HAZMAT load.

What I'm saying is the same thing the regulations say, namely that your logbook must show the previous 7 days. And it must be accurate.

If you weren't required to log at any time during the previous 7 days, then No Logs Required is 100% accurate.

If you hauled a HAZMAT load at any time within the previous 7 days, and then get another one, showing No Logs Required for the intervening days between is not accurate, is actually a falsification, because logs are in fact required for those days if you are performing any work whatsoever for compensation (as I already started in post #597).

To think otherwise is a complete misreading of what is a very clear and explicit regulation, not to mention thinking the FMCSA could possibly leave a loophole so big you could literally drive a truck though it.

The link Moot provided above to the definitions of the HOS status is one worth looking at closely. Under On Duty it includes in part:

(8) Performing any other work in the capacity, employ, or service of, a motor carrier; and

(9) Performing any compensated work for a person who is not a motor carrier.

In addition, under 395.8 Record of Duty Status, it states:

(2) Motor carriers, when using a driver for the first time or intermittently, shall obtain from the driver a signed statement giving the total time on duty during the immediately preceding 7 days and the time at which the driver was last relieved from duty prior to beginning work for the motor carriers.

 

[BigStickJr]

Anyone that logs has probably filled out a sheet documenting the previous seven days when changing carriers.
If cv drivers filled one out prior to starting a HM required log it would appear that the ten hours off would be required.
And if previous days were busy, the driver would have to check to see if he had the required hours to do said HM load.
Carriers have probably been very sloppy in this area. Those that have big trucks probably would be upset by taking a CSA hit over this.
And, in our litigious society, that stupid little word liability comes back into play.
As if they don't already have enough headaches.

 

[Turtle]

Anyone that logs has probably filled out a sheet documenting the previous seven days when changing carriers.

As doing so is an FMCSA requirement. I think you're right.

If cv drivers filled one out prior to starting a HM required log it would appear that the ten hours off would be required.

It is. Or you could just put OOS as they have no reason to doubt you and no way to verify than a driver of an unregulated vehicle was driving.

And if previous days were busy, the driver would have to check to see if he had the required hours to do said HM load.

That's why I said if you think you will take another HAZMAT load within 7 days, it's better just to keep the logs even on the days you aren't required to log, since you have to keep track of them anyway.

Carriers have probably been very sloppy in this area.

Oh, an FMCSA audit usually cleans that right up.

 

[BigStickJr]

It is. Or you could just put OOS as they have no reason to doubt you and no way to verify than a driver of an unregulated vehicle was driving.

Oh, in today's technical age I believe it'd be pretty easy to prove you were driving.
The time and effort wouldn't be used unless there was a major reason to do so. Like a fatality accident, large HM spill, etc.

When that driver pulled his semi in front of that Amtrak train near Mokena Illinois years ago Illinois State Investigators drove a route they assumed he ran on an unlogged trip and proved he paid cash for fuel in Ohio at the time he claimed to be home in bed.

 

[Turtle]

Oh, in today's technical age I believe it'd be pretty easy to prove you were driving.
The time and effort wouldn't be used unless there was a major reason to do so. Like a fatality accident, large HM spill, etc.

Well, now you've introduced an entirely new premise far beyond that of handing your logbook to a DOT officer at a scale house.

Clearly, if there is any question, doubt or reticence, then you should either go ahead and log all the time in case you get a HAZMAT load, or just fill out and sign a Hours of Service Certificate and ensure you have enough hours to haul the placarded load.

All I know is, I used to intermittently haul a lot of HAZMAT in a cargo van and despite having my logbook inspected at virtually every scale house I entered, I never received a single logbook violation nor did I ever receive a violation from an in-house carrier logbook audit. If in the previous 7 days of having a placarded load I did not have another placarded load, "Off Duty" being shown for each of the 7 previous 24 hours was never once questioned. On those occasions where I hauled more than one placarded load within the last 7 days, the days in which I was not placarded but still showed each change of duty status, as per the regulations, they were also not questioned, even if it showed two or three days in a row as "Off Duty."

 

[GuyUpNorth]

If you drop a run, NO LOGS REQUIRED, and pick up a HM load (w/o 10 hrs off) it's got to be falsification to show going into the HM load with a fresh 11/14.

Stated this way it makes perfect sense that continuing to log would be the thing to do. Unfortunately, continuing to log for an additional 7 days would almost certainly end in an HOS violation or a turn down to avoid being in violation. Lots of good information, however, lots of room left for interpretation in the law as well.

 

[OntarioVanMan]

How in the world would a trooper know you ran a hazmat load 1-2 days ago unless you opened your mouth?

 

[akkshole]

How in the world would a trooper know you ran a hazmat load 1-2 days ago unless you opened your mouth?

THANK YOU!

This has become 40 pages of what if's and but if's...and you wonder why noone has to ever worry about drivers uniting. You guys will split hairs to the point where it's about your own ego and not about the subject...

Please agree to disagree at some point or like OVM said...who knows unless you throw yourself under the bus...and he is Canadian...they are known for being overly honest and helpful. (No offense ken)

 

[Turtle]

who knows unless you throw yourself under the bus...

Throwing yourself under the bus is one way to go, I guess. Certainly a lot easier than taking on the burden of reading the regulations.

 

[OntarioVanMan]

THANK YOU!

This has become 40 pages of what if's and but if's...and you wonder why noone has to ever worry about drivers uniting. You guys will split hairs to the point where it's about your own ego and not about the subject...

Please agree to disagree at some point or like OVM said...who knows unless you throw yourself under the bus...and he is Canadian...they are known for being overly honest and helpful. (No offense ken)

None taken.....

split hairs? in here? unheard of....someone puts 1 issue out there and you'll get 1001 different ideas, responses and then the responses to responses and so forth.....you just have to filter out what you don't need and discard the rest...
some can do it and some get irritated and can't or won't do it and end up leaving the site or,,,,they get banned because they expect a perfect world...in my case knowing whats coming makes it easier....I am sure not perfect and don't expect perfection in return....

Relax enjoy the site for what it is....have some fun and make some friends....with the understanding we ALL run our businesses a little different....what may seem like a barb tossed your way at times....is just members trying to understand your decisions and they'll toss in their opinion......I've done it to ya...with no offense meant. Just interested of what lead you to that decision is all....
Enjoy.....Ken aka OVM

(sorry for ramble and off topic)

 

[BigStickJr]

How in the world would a trooper know you ran a hazmat load 1-2 days ago unless you opened your mouth?

If you've met many drivers you know some like to open their mouths.

Or if you're in an incident and your paperwork from 1-2 days ago is still in your cab.

Or if for whatever reason there's a HM audit being done and all HM loads are compared to logs.
Oops! Looks like this group of trucks isn't logging.

I guess there are more ways than we know.

Split hairs? I do. Makes me think and sometimes I do it to make others think.

There were two or three different good ideas on how to handle this, but there is probably only one proper way. The good news for all of us is due to man power shortages, audits are pretty rare. My guess is when they do an audit, they only expect to just being close to being compliant. If you do most of the stuff properly most of the time, I think they give you a few hints on how to improve and move on. When they find a carrier that makes little or no effort to be compliant, that's when you read about that carrier in Overdrive.

 

[OntarioVanMan]

If you've met many drivers you know some like to open their mouths.

Or if you're in an incident and your paperwork from 1-2 days ago is still in your cab.

Or if for whatever reason there's a HM audit being done and all HM loads are compared to logs.
Oops! Looks like this group of trucks isn't logging.

I guess there are more ways than we know.

Split hairs? I do. Makes me think and sometimes I do it to make others think.

There were two or three different good ideas on how to handle this, but there is probably only one proper way. The good news for all of us is due to man power shortages, audits are pretty rare. My guess is when they do an audit, they only expect to just being close to being compliant. If you do most of the stuff properly most of the time, I think they give you a few hints on how to improve and move on. When they find a carrier that makes little or no effort to be compliant, that's when you read about that carrier in Overdrive.

splitting hairs can be a good thing to a point....different ideas and points of view are put out there that one may not have even considered....

 

[Turtle]

I prefer to split hares. Then I read the regs.

 

[GuyUpNorth]

How in the world would a trooper know you ran a hazmat load 1-2 days ago unless you opened your mouth?

My first thoughts about this were loose leaf logs and a trash can would solve any issues.Then I thought if there were ever an accident or some sort of environmental spill or something they would definately be looking to put everything on the driver.

 

[Ragman]

I prefer to split hares. Then I read the regs.

 

[OntarioVanMan]

My first thoughts about this were loose leaf logs and a trash can would solve any issues.Then I thought if there were ever an accident or some sort of environmental spill or something they would definately be looking to put everything on the driver.

That's exactly what the state trooper told me ... They want to know the route you took and the times and location of any stops on route till delivery...

 

[andrew sterling]

I love seeing how far off topic these things can go.. haha