Legal rights

S

sucbadriver

Guest
Panther doesn't want part time drivers. If your taking only half of the loads they offer you then you are working part time. Panther aslo tells you that when you are going through Orientation' If you are pulling a trailer they are paying for that trailer and if you arent going to use it they dont need you.
 
G

guest

Guest
ok guys ... lol...forget about Panther... if you remember the subject ..was do we have any legal rights? Ideea is an Independent Contractor can be fired?

In determining whether the person providing service is an employee or an independent contractor, all information that provides evidence of the degree of control and independence must be considered.

It is critical that you, the employer, correctly determine whether the individuals providing services are employees or independent contractors. Generally, you must withhold income taxes, withhold and pay Social Security and Medicare taxes, and pay unemployment tax on wages paid to an employee. You do not generally have to withhold or pay any taxes on payments to independent contractors.

Caution: If you incorrectly classify an employee as an independent contractor, you can be held liable for employment taxes for that worker, plus a penalty.

That's the law in USA.. http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/article/0,,id=99921,00.html
 

Jefferson3000

Expert Expediter
Well, I know if I refused to take 46% of the runs offered to me, my clients would go elsewhere. If you are an independent contractor, then according to the IRS, you are a small business. Your business is to take care of the needs of your customer, which in your case is Panther. Unless your lease agreement states differently, you really have no leg to stand on legally. Your client (Panther) has the legal right to take their business elsewhere.

With all of that said, here is the big question: Would you rather them tell you that your services are not working out for them and that you should try somewhere else, or just put you on their trouble list and just slowly ignore you unless absolutely necessary? It looks like they've done you a favor by releasing you from your contract.


Drive Safe!

Jeff

Driver for 15 years
O/O for 13 years
OOIDA #829119

[em]"Let us be thankful for the fools. But for them the rest of us could not succeed." --Mark Twain[/em]
 

Critter Truckin

Expert Expediter
>Hate to be an a** about this, but for all you who live in
>Michigan and have trouble getting out, why don't you push to
>recall the governor and Levin?
>
>I mean these two are the real failure of the state, Granholm
>is screwing the state up even more and Levin has yet to
>produce one job for the state - he has only been concern
>with Iraq.
>
>Ok I'm done.

Greg, I'm all for recalling the people in the Congress that don't get it done... however, we don't have the right of recall when it comes to federally elected officials. But, I would love to get rid of Comrade CocoPuff.
 

x06col

Veteran Expediter
Charter Member
Retired Expediter
US Army
Probably, AFTER they put you on the "list", and you didn't go away.
 

highway star

Veteran Expediter
Owner/Operator
What rights are you concerned about? Do you feel that you have the right to remain contracted to them regardless of how satisfied they are with your performance? Do you feel obligated to stay with a company no matter how well they treat you? They give you the option to leave if you feel you need to. Remember, this is contractual wording that you agreed to.
 

RichM

Veteran Expediter
Charter Member
54% while not good is usually not bad enough to terminate your lease. There may be other reasons in addition to the 54%.
 

Jefferson3000

Expert Expediter
RichM makes a good point. My question is, did Panther actually terminate your contract, or did someone merely suggest that you leave if you are not happy with the way things are done? Because from the original wording, it sounds like the latter is what happened.

Drive Safe!

Jeff

Driver for 15 years
O/O for 13 years
OOIDA #829119

[em]"Let us be thankful for the fools. But for them the rest of us could not succeed." --Mark Twain[/em]
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
Greg, I'm all for recalling the people in the Congress that don't get it done... however, we don't have the right of recall when it comes to federally elected officials. But, I would love to get rid of Comrade CocoPuff.

Jay you are too d*mn funny, I wrote a rather extensive article for a blog this spring on this very subject and for some reason no one ever learns that many states can recall their own representatives, many not all.

In the case of Michigan there is a procedure that is there that simply states that if a group of people file for a petition to recall with the Michigan AG, a petition is issued, there is a gathering of signatures that is a percentage of the actual votes that were cast for that person at the last election, the signatures need to be gathered within a time limit that is set in the law (I think it is 32% and 90 days) and the signatures are confirmed as registered voters, the recall takes place immediately. This is for every elected official in Michigan, including the Attorney General, senators, congressman and governors - judges are excluded of course, they have to be recalled by the Michigan legislature.

In the case of Levin, he is a senior senator and he has done less for the state than any other senator we have had. There are military centric jobs that are going to Mass, Connecticut, New York and Arkansas while at the same time we are bleeding to death as a state with no one at the helm of our state. Granholm wants to raise taxes and give it to the schools instead of promoting the state, nothing good about her and anyone who voted for her is a fool.

Well enough about that…

You know it gets tiring to hear about the contractor vs. the employee stuff. Many of you read about this stuff, you don’t like the idea of a company that tells you to do this or that and many more think that just because you are being told something, it takes the independence out of the equation, WRONG.

As I stated before and as other have too, the idea of a contractor is not what you make it out to be, you have a requirement to fulfill the needs of a company that can terminate your contract for any reason at ant time – believe me I have done it with a number of contractors before because I just didn’t like them.

The idea that the IRS is the only agency that oversee this is wrong, the department of Labor has something to say about it, the IRS is only concern with taxes, not employee rights and by thinking you can use the common-law determination questions as a contractor, you better have a d*mn good idea what you are talking about if you approach a company with the attitude that you are an employee and back it up with a lawyer who does nothing but labor issues. Been through a few things on both sides of the fence and had to deal with both the IRS and DOL on this very issue. Labor Law is very complex and sometimes hard to get a grasp of.

For me, I heard all of this from the IT people I would contract to do specific work and both the contracting house and my company knew what we could and could not do, the biggest thing was educating the people who did not have specific skill sets needed to complete complex projects. I have had in the past not only tell people what to do but how to do and when to do things, this never violated any government policies. Also I had required contractors who were on site at customer’s locations to be dressed either in uniforms or proper apparel, again not violating anything.

But the difference here is very simple and clear;
1- You as an O/O are to do your due diligence when you are offered the contract (you know that a company is required by law to allow you to see the contract before you have to sign it so you can have it reviewed?), which means you read the contract and/or have a lawyer go over it with you so there are no problems with expectations and such. Again you are contracted to do a specific job within a specific area of the company for the company and the customer and maintain the company’s ability to keep the customer and show a positive image as a representative of that company – make sense?

2 – and you have to have a clear understanding that you are not, by any means completely independent because of the requirements of the company and the customers they serve. Being independent can be construed as not needing to follow specific instructions, being part of the company image or maintaining that company image and a whole bunch of other things but in fact it is no where near the meaning that has been determined by the courts and other laws. Independence is about performance and your ability to make judgment calls, like how to load your truck, how to drive in traffic and so on.

The last thing I have to throw into this is that because we all have CDL’s there are added factors involved to the equation that many who worked in the IT industry have never faced or understand. There is a difference between a CDL and a MCSE and CISSP certification with a masters degree, the latter is not regulated by the federal government.
 

lanier1

Seasoned Expediter
Bottom line is they have the right to quit you just like you have the right to quit them. Personally I don't see anything wrong with you taking only 56% of the loads offered. It is your decision and yours alone to accept or decline any load. I don't think that makes you part time either. That stat doesn't mean you are only working 56% of the time. So what if all the so called vets on here disagree with it. Thats why you buy your own truck and make your own decisions. Who cares what anyone else, me included, thinks? Sounds to me like you need to find a carrier that suits your way of doing business.
 

davekc

Senior Moderator
Staff member
Fleet Owner
What I find interesting is that the DOL refers to the 20 step IRS plan for guidance in determining status. There are a few other variables by individual state, but not too many. Sure the IRS is a very integral part of the equation for the purposes of assigning tax liability.
There are some gray areas, and I believe that is what brings on these lawsuits we are see today. It will be interesting to see what happens.

www.dol.gov has some information, but is somewhat limited.

On Laniers comments, I wouldn't say I agree or don't because there isn't enough information to make a judgement. On one extreme he may turn down profitable loads consistantly, or he could have been offered poor loads 46 percent of the time.










Davekc
owner
23 years
PantherII
EO moderator
 

Fr8 Shaker

Veteran Expediter
Seems to me NON-FORCED dispatch should mean exactly that, NON-FORCED Dispatch. If for whatever reason you do or do not except a load should be entirely up to you. It should not matter to panther because it doesn't cost them anything for your van to be parked, whether your sitting at home or in a parking lot. Lord knows they have enough vans or trucks to cover a load whether YOU take the load or not, and if everyone is turning the load down that must tell you something. As far as taking one for the team, I could see doing that back in the day when the truck was getting the majority of the money for the load usually between 58 and 70 percent depending on the company, but now with this flat rate per mile it just isn't as feasible. To take a load with 50 miles D/H to go 100 or less miles to a non-freight area only to D/H back to where you started, as compared to D/H 50 miles to go 100 miles or less which takes you to a better area,theres a big difference. and other variables, ie: board position , time of day, number of loads and so on. So i believe it should be up to the driver to deem if it is profitable to them whether or not they should accept any load, because we're in this to make a living not lose money to haul someones freight. I always said if I wanted to work for my health I'd get a job at Bally's !
 

nightcreacher

Veteran Expediter
Im not one to argue about load turn downs,people that know me,I turn down my share,but we all have to learn one thing, in are own companies,if we all keep turning down all the short loads,what do you think will happen to the long loads.My being on percentage sure makes a difference when offered these short runs.Also if your in a not so hot area,it just might be the best thing to take that short load and get out.If your on a mileage contract,you just might dig yourself a big hole.
There is also another way to look at the loads your turning down,the more you turn down,the more trucks a company has to maintain to satisfy their customers,so it becomes a catch 22,turn the loads down,have more trucks to compete with,for the same amount of freight.
Its your choice
 

davekc

Senior Moderator
Staff member
Fleet Owner
Milage or percentage have nothing to do with whether a short load is profitable or not. Just depends on whether it is "enough".
I run both, so I see pros and cons to both.
Just depends on what the paid per mile is, or what the percentage amount is based on.








Davekc
owner
23 years
PantherII
EO moderator
 

Teflon

Seasoned Expediter
“Doing One for the Teamâ€â€¦.what team?
I believe that the majority of people in expediting are, by nature, very independent and self reliant. Me and my wife have endured over 2 years in this business because of the independence and flexibility we did not enjoy in our previous jobs. When we read that an “independent contractor†is released from contract for a low acceptance percentage, we realize that there are some arbitrary rules that can restrict our flexibility.

To me, a load offer has to fit my criteria or it will be rejected. If anyone or any company feels that I am “obligated to take a load or else†then I will remind them that, as an independent business person, I make all decisions when it come to my business.
Some carriers recruit using the “no forced dispatch ploy†then force loads based on minimum acceptance. I have a friend who works for Schneider National. He has to take whatever is thrown at him, but he also gets a retirement plan, a matching 401K, full major medical/dental, workers comp, and he has not one penny invested in a truck. We decided not to go the company driver route so that we could maintain our independence and flexibility, but if we are “forced†for any reason to take that unprofitable load, then we will change carriers or be out of this business pronto.

I know it has been said in many previous post, but if a carrier wants all loads covered, then it can buy the truck, hire an “employee†and pay the benefits. But as everyone knows, these open ended, easy out, no fault contracts, combined with minimum acceptance rules, gives the carrier the upper hand. And that will probably not change.

The smarter business plan should be based on productivity, not acceptance.(LandStar) Example:
We know a truck owner who has been with our carrier for 7 years. He and his wife have their truck in service for 4 maybe 5 months a year. They go in service, take short mileage trips that will get them back to their farm without too much deadhead. They generated a little over $60,000 to the truck last year. On the other hand my wife and I stay in service almost 100%, only taking one week vacation and whatever it takes for maintenance downtime. We generated $186,000 to the truck, although at times our acceptance dropped below 40%. That puts us in the “firing range†but you tell me who is more productive?
 
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