Israel attacks Gaza, 195 reported killed

chefdennis

Veteran Expediter
OVM wrote:

Would you sing the same song if it were your own citizens being "collateral damage"

I personally am not talking about "collateral damage" i am simply talking about kiing everything that moves in gaza... thats not "collateral". If people want to stay, in and area they know is or at anytime can be a war zone, such is life.

But then we have terrorist issues that produced "collateral damage" (how soon we forget) here like "9-11", "the okla. city bombing of the Murrah building in 1995" ,and the "1st NYC Trade Center bombings in 1993." So yea we have had "collateral damage" here also, and we will have more..............

So my tune is the same now even with those issues and When (and it will) it comes to my neighborhood, i'll deal with it then too.........
 

chefdennis

Veteran Expediter
relent wrote:

Well ..... I dunno what you mean by "islamic muslims" ..... is that any Muslim that practices Islam ? (sorta a redundant statement ....)

Well since not alot of people understand islam beyond what the MSM feeds them, or uness they have a family member that is a devout muslim (such as yourself) most won't know that "islamic muslum" is NOT a redundant statement.. if seems to even have missed you.

You see there are muslums of the faith and of the heart, early Muslims judged between the muslums, who has "submitted" and does the bare minimum required to be considered a part of the community (simply faith), and the muslum, the believer, who has given himself or herself to the faith heart and soul.

Now many will say this is of the outdated practices BUT, the fundamenalist or extremeist have used this as a measuring stick to draw the there members and to show the devotion to their cause, the contro of the world as they feel islam is the ony religion and the allah is the only God and his instructions through mohamhad were to convert of kill those not of islam. Then you have muslums that turn away from the faith in bth heart and practice and do DENONANCE islam as it is practiced by the extremist. The Apostates, they are more then often found to support the faith, but not the actions. There is hugh group of these that are working in Germany and make no reference to being "islamic muslums" themselves, but refer to themselves as "Germen muslums" that practice islam.

So no the term isn't redundant.

Now woud i offer asylum to those that wanted to leave gaza to be safe? Asylum to our country? Absolutly not. Now that has nothing to do with them being islamic muslums, I personally wouldn't allow another foreign person seeking asylum or even citizenship to our country to come here at all for a long time. We have enough issues with illegals and those coming hrere legally that do not want to assimulate to our country, we don't have room for those that don't want to be "AMERICANS", we don't need "Hyphenated Americans". Youdon't need to take that from me, you might want to checkout Teddy Roosevelt on that topic when he was President. Its too bad we have let what has happened with those coming here happen......but thats another topic.

Now as for the asylum for those wishing to leave gaza to be safe. Israel made their intensions know before the current bombings, they just lead them to believe it wouldn't happen when it did, so people had the chance to make any oves they wanted to, and didn't for the most part. Now me personally, I'd prefer to cover the area with "leaflet" drops for low flying planes letting the citizens know, "we are coming, its just a matter of time", those that want to leave, can, and those that want to seek asylum with any country that will take them, even the US, (as i said, i am not for it, but alas) they are more then welcome to do so, it is their option.

Now the fact that was pointed out by Pilgram pointed out that hamas has the military "plants", rocket lauching pads and even bases within the populace including in schools or next to playgrounds, kind of shows just how concerned they are about women and children dying.....War is hell people die and are killed, it want man does and ALWAYS will....

As for your explanation of the <snips>, none was needed, i totally understand, and yes i meant everyword of it. If anyone wants to denonce hamas, hezzballah, islamic muslum extremists and get out with or without help, more power to them and I'd offer a helping hand, but if you stay, and continue in the ways of those that populate the area , ive there, die there.

And yes i'll give you all bimbing is in a way indiscriminate, and you can say it is even intended to be, but again thats the way of war, look what we did to germany and japan, it happens and will happen again, its the way of war......

Look, as "TN Hawk" said and I can agree, to an extent, but i'll change what he said a bit, SOME don't deserves to die, some do. But if you don't help yourself by removing yourself from the danger that may come your way, or you remain silent about those that are corrupting your religon and stay amoun them and allow them to be the ruling party of your country (hamas (a known and recoginized by the rest of the world terrorist group)was voted into power by the paleastinians) then you are as guity as those that need to die and if you do, so be it...Those that are there understand the form of government is run by a terrorist group, if they don't agree with it, they might want to get out....

I think we have beat this horse to death and no point is being made, we are just countering each other, you are welcome to continue. But while it was fun and i repsect you and your position , we don't see eye to eye and im pretty sure we never will. So I'll take my comments back to the origina post and the invasion and state that i feel that Israe is certainly well within its right to defend itself against the over 1300 rocket attacks against its countrymen and its about time they returned fire and set the margin for hamas to try and follow, but that won't happen , hamas doesn't have the firepower to match israel...wel not without the help of oh say IRAN!!! No there is a very interesting line to follow!! One can only hope!!!!

And yes, it has gotten worse and wil get worse daiy until israel decides to stop or hamas says "ok we give", and sign another peace treaty, but they will break another treat soon enough, so whats the since............
 

chefdennis

Veteran Expediter
I certainly hope they **** well mean this and keep going as they say!!

Barak: This is 'all out war' on Hamas

Dec 29, 2008 13:13 | Updated Dec 29, 2008 21:10
By JPOST.COM STAFF

Defense Minister and Labor chairman Ehud Barak on Monday said that Israel would expand its military operation in the Gaza Strip until all the goals were achieved.

He spoke at a special Knesset session attended, among others, by Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni and opposition leader Binyamin Netanyahu.

"This operation will be extended and deepened as we find necessary. Our goal is to strike Hamas and stop the attacks on Israel. Hamas controls Gaza and is responsible for everything happening there and for all attacks carried out from within the Strip. The goals of this operation are to stop Hamas from attacking our citizens and soldiers," said Barak.

"I would like to remind the world that Israel withdrew from the entire Gaza Strip more than three years ago. We gave a chance for a new reality, and all we've seen is Hamas firing rockets and missiles on our citizens and carrying out attacks against Israel," he noted.

Barak added that the IDF was targeting Hamas leadership and its allies in Gaza, asserting that the operation would be "all out war."

"We have nothing against the citizens of Gaza, but we must fight against the Hamas leadership. We are making great efforts to prevent civilian casualties… We are not preventing humanitarian aid from entering the Gaza Strip."

The defense minister told Knesset members that he was not sorry for Israel's restraint in previous months and noted that Operation Cast Lead had been planned by the security establishment long ago.

"I'm not sorry for the restraint we showed until the beginning of Operation Cast Lead...now is the time to act, we are not willing to let this situation continue," the defense minister said.

Barak stressed that Israel was not interested in violence but would not allow a situation in which its citizens were under fire.

"I never believed war was the best option...I'm the defense minister, not the war minister," he said. "As a fighter and commander I know personally what it feels like to lose a fellow combatant. I'm not trigger happy, maybe even the opposite."

However, Barak added that although Israel was not interested in war, it had come to the conclusion that a military operation was necessary.

"I want to make it clear that we did not set out on this military operation because of revenge or rage... The security establishment has been preparing for such an operation for many months," he said.

Livni, who spoke after Barak, also stressed Hamas's responsibility for the situation in Gaza and said that while Israel wants peace and was interested in continuing the peace process, the Jewish state "must fight against those who want to prevent us from living in peace."

"To all those criticizing us we say that Hamas is an extremist terror group that does not represent the Palestinians...We have decided to hold a peace process with those who are truly committed to living in peace, side by side," Livni said, referring to Israel's negotiations with the Fatah leadership in the West Bank.

Livni's statements were somewhat dampened, however, by the Palestinian Authority's top negotiator Ahmed Qurei, who said Monday that negotiations could not continue as long as Israel was attacking Gaza.

Netanyahu, meanwhile, criticized the government's policy of restraint and said that Israel had taken too long to strike Hamas.

"For firing at citizens, hiding behind citizens, causing suffering to our citizens to their own citizens, we will strike Hamas...No country in the world would do otherwise, and no nation would restrain itself for so long, for too long," the opposition leader said at the meeting.

He also noted that the military operation should also be aimed at toppling the Hamas regime in Gaza.

"Our goal should be twofold - stopping the attacks on our cities and eliminating the threat of rocket attacks from the Gaza Strip," said Netanyahu. "Stopping the attacks can be done within a short period of time, while eliminating the threat of rocket attacks from Gaza will entail toppling the Hamas rule over the Strip and uprooting the Iranian base there."

Netanyahu went on to call on all the citizens of Israel, Arab and Jewish, to "remain loyal to the state of Israel during this just war against our enemy."

"We stand united in this war. Not every citizen must automatically support every move the government makes, but it is unacceptable for Israeli citizens to support our enemies," he said.

The opposition leader urged Arab Israelis to condemn fundamentalism in their communities, and said that Israel would act forcefully against Israeli Hamas supporters.

Netanyahu also called on Prime Minister Ehud Olmert to dismiss Science, Culture and Sport Minister Ghaleb Majadle from the government for boycotting Sunday's cabinet meeting in protest of the Gaza operation.

"A minister must serve the state of Israel and cannot boycott a cabinet meeting in a time of war," said Netanyahu.

During Netanyahu's address, Knesset Speaker Dalia Itzik expelled two Arab Israeli MKs from the special meeting, after they repeatedly interrupted his speech.

The first MK to be expelled from the meeting was Muhammad Barakei (Hadash), who called out, "How many wars are on your menu, Bibi?" as Netanyahu began his address to the Knesset. MK Gideon Sa'ar (Likud) told Barakei that he should go to Gaza to show his support, to which Barakei responded, "I would if only I could."

MK Taleb A-Sanaa (United Arab List) was also expelled from the meeting.

Both MKs were warned three times before Itzik ordered that they be removed from the meeting.
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satelli...cle/ShowFull
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
I certainly hope they **** well mean this and keep going as they say!!
I don't think they mean it.

Among the many chants of, "Death to Israel," and "At your service, Gaza!" the tens of thousands of Lebanese Hezbollah supporters thronged a huge square and nearby streets in the militant group's stronghold south of Beirut, carrying Palestinian, Lebanese and yellow Hezbollah flags and banners supporting the Palestinian people. The rally was by far the largest protest in the Arab world, where outrage over Israel's air strikes continued into a third day.

Not a lot of Arab outrage over the daily rocket and mortar fire by Gaza militants towards Israel, tho.

Seems to me that Israel, if they were serious about this thing, wouldn't have let such a golden opportunity pass by.

bce1e7ac-f6a4-451c-98f9-a8c06d4e0e16.rp350x350.jpg
 

Pilgrim

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
It's easy to envision a big red bulls-eye superimposed over that picture, and my prediction for the new year is that we'll see Israel bombing Hamas rocket positions in Lebanon in the not-too-distant future. They will soon have Gaza under control, so the Hamas terrorists will simply relocate their rocket launching locations to Lebanon, where they have plenty of support from the population and lots of places to hide their assets. It's about time somebody took the gloves off and got serious with these Islamic radicals, and hopefully other countries will follow the example being set by the Jews. If these terrorists try to hide in schools or mosques, or launch rockets from playgrounds - blow them up! It won't take long for the population that doesn't sympathize with Hamas to quit supporting them.
 

hdxpedx

Veteran Expediter
Fleet Owner
[ It's about time somebody took the gloves off and got serious with these Islamic radicals, and hopefully other countries will follow the example being set by the Jews.

Not this incoming lib lefty's.. they will SURRENDER ISRAEL to HAMAS(IRAN) THRU CNN WORLD NEWS-LIKE YOU SEE TODAY-- ISRAEL HEAD'S SERVED ON A PLATTER!! That's why Israel didn't ask ANYBODY'S PERMISSION!! NEXT OIL will be sky-rocketing once attacked by Israel..ALWAYS straight to MY overhead..you obumer VOTERS change change change-- here it is.. PC correction--JEWS BAD-MUSLIMS GOOD..
 
Last edited:

Pilgrim

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter

From the above article:

"...To recap: For most of the six months of the cease-fire, relative quiet prevailed, and life returned to near-normal for the residents of Sderot and environs (though not for Gazans, who remained under siege)..."

The author of this article seems oblivious to the fact that in spite of the cease-fire Hamas continued to pour rockets into Southern Israel, with Sderot being one of their primary targets. The above quote is not only ridiculous, but patently false. The author also completely ignores the fact that Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005 in a concession that was supposed to show their willingness to further offer land for peace.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/08/10/AR2005081000713.html

In return for this sacrifice, all they got was Hamas using Gaza as a launching pad for their rockets aimed at southern Israel. Indeed, it was Israel that was under siege - not Gaza. After suffering over 300 rockets during the eight-day period following the cease-fire expiration the Israelis decided they'd had enough of Hamas' harrasment and that it was time to put them out of business. Perhaps the media should give equal time and exposure to the damages and terrorism inflicted on Israel by the continual rocket attacks from Hamas. If both sides of the story were presented equally, perhaps there wouldn't be so much misplaced sympathy for these Iranian backed terrorists.
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
The author of this article seems oblivious to the fact that in spite of the cease-fire Hamas continued to pour rockets into Southern Israel, with Sderot being one of their primary targets.
Well .... I dunno there Pilgrim ..... seems like he might just a little better informed on what's going on over there .... than some expediter in the Midwest:

"During the Barak Government, he worked in the Israeli Prime Minister's Office as special adviser and head of Jerusalem Affairs, following which Daniel worked as senior policy adviser to then Israeli Minister of Justice, Yossi Beilin. In this capacity he was responsible for coordinating policy on various issues including peace negotiations, civil and human rights, and the Palestinian minority in Israel. Daniel was a member of the official Israeli delegation to the Taba negotiations with the Palestinians in January 2001, and previously served on the Israeli negotiating team to the "Oslo B" Agreement from May to September 1995, under Prime Minister Rabin. He also served as the lead Israeli drafter of the Geneva Initiative, a joint Israeli-Palestinian effort that suggests a detailed model for a peace agreement to end the Israeli-Palestinian conflict."

Whatcha think ?

The above quote is not only ridiculous, but patently false.
No, actually, it isn't - it's accurate - see the timeline at the following link - it's a highly detailed accounting of the actions of various parties involved in the conflict over a number of years - and the resultant consequences to the innocents who are inevitably affected:

List of rocket and mortar attacks in Israel in 2008

If you have any specific data (and not just some generalized statement or commentary of your own) that actually refutes the timeline linked above, please do provide it.

One highlight culled from the above link:

The first break in the cease-fire, on June 20 (a day after it starts), is reported to be by an Israeli settler, Gilad Herman, who, while attempting to launch homemade rocket into the Palestinian West Bank, almost unintentionally hits an Israeli solider.

The author also completely ignores the fact that Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005 in a concession that was supposed to show their willingness to further offer land for peace.
No, he doesn't ignore it - it's just not relevant to the point that he's trying to make (that there is no military solution) - and he just happens to understand the entire context of the situation and the conflict - and the actions and resultant reactions on both sides - probably far better than you or I.

In return for this sacrifice, all they got was Hamas using Gaza as a launching pad for their rockets aimed at southern Israel.
Not true - the above is a glib statement which attempts to render as simple, something which is highly complex.

Indeed, it was Israel that was under siege - not Gaza.
They were both under siege - from each other.

It's war ..... and war, by definition, is an insane activity

Perhaps the media should give equal time and exposure to the damages and terrorism inflicted on Israel by the continual rocket attacks from Hamas.
Are ya really sure ya wanna compare numbers on this ? Be careful - you might actually find out which party has the greater amount of blood on it's hands ...

For starters, the total sum of Israeli casualties from Qassam rocket attacks in the period from 2001 to May 2008 has been ... 23 deaths and 433 injured.

While a single death or injury is one too many, the number above is small when you compare it to the overall casualties on both sides over the entire conflict (figures below thru part of 2007):

Israelies - Palestinian Fatalities

If both sides of the story were presented equally, perhaps there wouldn't be so much misplaced sympathy for these Iranian backed terrorists.
Well then, why don't you try present it equally then ..... instead continually trying to carry only Israel's water ..... ?

I think they (the political entities and whack-jobs on both sides) are both at fault for the situation they find themselves in ..... both are equally as nuts as the other.

And for the diplomatic geniuses that seem to frequent this site, please riddle me this:

If the solution is just wipe out all the residents in the West Bank and Gaza, does that better the situation with Israel's neighbors and their inhabitants - or just aggravate it ?

You figure that such an action will "calm the Arab street" ..... or inflame it into further actions against what they perceive to be their enemies ?
 

Pilgrim

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Well .... I dunno there Pilgrim ..... seems like he might just a little better informed on what's going on over there .... than some expediter in the Midwest:

"During the Barak Government, he worked in the Israeli Prime Minister's Office as special adviser and head of Jerusalem Affairs, following which Daniel worked as senior policy adviser to then Israeli Minister of Justice, Yossi Beilin. In this capacity he was responsible for coordinating policy on various issues including peace negotiations, civil and human rights, and the Palestinian minority in Israel. Daniel was a member of the official Israeli delegation to the Taba negotiations with the Palestinians in January 2001, and previously served on the Israeli negotiating team to the "Oslo B" Agreement from May to September 1995, under Prime Minister Rabin. He also served as the lead Israeli drafter of the Geneva Initiative, a joint Israeli-Palestinian effort that suggests a detailed model for a peace agreement to end the Israeli-Palestinian conflict."

Whatcha think ?

I think he is indeed well informed, and is promoting the liberal viewpoint that has in the past encouraged the land-for-peace deals that are not necessarily in Israel's best interest.

No, actually, it isn't - it's accurate - see the timeline at the following link - it's a highly detailed accounting of the actions of various parties involved in the conflict over a number of years - and the resultant consequences to the innocents who are inevitably affected:

List of rocket and mortar attacks in Israel in 2008

If you have any specific data (and not just some generalized statement or commentary of your own) that actually refutes the timeline linked above, please do provide it.

I don't need any more specific data because your link to this Wikipedia article (which for argument's sake we'll assume is accurate) proves my point. There were 71 rocket/mortar attacks in December prior to the cease-fire expiration on the 18th; add to that the 169 attacks during the month of November. Do you think the residents of Southern Israel considered this harassment to be consistent with the "relative quiet" and "near normal" conditions he describes? He implies that the Israelis were living normally while the Palestinians continued to be "under siege". Evidently, he doesn't consider 169 rocket attacks during a month's time worthy of description as siege. All the while, Hamas was restocking their armaments during this so-called "cease fire".

Are ya really sure ya wanna compare numbers on this ? Be careful - you might actually find out which party has the greater amount of blood on it's hands ...

For starters, the total sum of Israeli casualties from Qassam rocket attacks in the period from 2001 to May 2008 has been ... 23 deaths and 433 injured.

To compare numbers of casualties is not the point. The fact is that Hamas subjected Southern Israel to continual attacks in spite of the cease-fire, and would have inflicted more damage if they had access to better weapons. The key point here is that Hamas is a terrorist organization committed to the destruction of Israel. They are prepared to create civilian casualties and use the deaths of these innocents to create sympathy in the media. They are quite adept at gathering photos of bloody women and children, and the mainstream media is all too willing to help spread their propoganda. Consider also that Israel botched the conflict with Hezbollah in Lebanon by not viciously crushing them - they don't intend to make that mistake again.

Well then, why don't you try present it equally then ..... instead continually trying to carry only Israel's water ..... ?

I'm not a news reporter, so my posts don't have to be balanced. My opinions in this matter are one-sided, conservative and pro-Israel. I am decidedly for the destruction of Hamas because they are terrorists that are not interested in peace with the Jews, or the Americans for that matter. Remember, the Palestinians have embraced Hamas and supported them. Who can forget the footage of the Palestinians celebrating in the streets immediately after the 911 attacks? The Israelis are our allies in this region - the Palestinians are not.

If the solution is just wipe out all the residents in the West Bank and Gaza, does that better the situation with Israel's neighbors and their inhabitants - or just aggravate it ?
You figure that such an action will "calm the Arab street" ..... or inflame it into further actions against what they perceive to be their enemies ?

Who knows if there is a solution? There probably is none. However, one thing is certain - there will be no "calming the Arab street" as long as these radical Islamic fascists are allowed to spread their message of hate and intolerance along with their commitment to killing anyone who isn't them. That's why Hamas, Hezbollah and others like them have to be defeated, not appeased.
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
Pilgrim,

I'm going to give you a detailed respond to your post above - but it's probably going to take awhile - because dealing with the actual truth of the matter doesn't lend itself to broad, generalized statements - it requires specificity - looking at all the facts in regards to the situation.
 
Top