Government Sponsored Healthcare

arkjarhead

Veteran Expediter
I know we have been talking about this off and on for some time, but I wanted to bring up another aspect of this. I'm not real knowledgeable on what these people are wanting to see and I will admit that. What I wanted to bring up was the fact that we have a system in place now, I know at least in Arkansas, where people without insurance can get minor health care at little to no cost depending on income. It's called something like the County Health Department. Where I live it would be the Jefferson County Health Department. When I was a kid my mom took us there for our shots. We were a "low income" family so we got them for a cheaper price than say going to a peditrician. If these polticians really want to do something why not improve on this? I mean women can go there and get there exams, and birth control at little to no cost. Anyone can walk in and get a free bag of condoms. Which in my opoinon it's worth giving some of these people free or subsidized birth control because if you don't they will multiply like jackrabbits and the kids will get taken care of by the governement. Last time I checked birth control is cheaper than raising a kid.

So my main question is this. If we already have this system in place why not improve on it? Doesn't that make more sense than coming out with something that is completely new that will have to go through the trail and error period that could take forever?
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
Ark,
One word – bureaucracy

As defined “bureaucracy is governmental officialism or inflexible routine”

See Ark, the system is inherently flawed by the fact that it is government run. No government agency at any level runs like a business, and the money that is spent is not well spent or spent in the best interest of the parties that it is providing services to.

A fact that the amount of money being used for administration of these systems from the intake of the money to where it gets to the people is almost 80 cents per every dollar and this is where the problem is.

Can you imagine if we allow a chuch, non-profit or other organization to do the work that cost can be reduced to as low as 5 cents on every dollar, giving 95 cents to help people with?

Some of the cause is the administration or management of these programs but one of the bigger contributors is the people working in these programs and how they are complacent in their jobs. The average government worker is not going to improve services because of a fear of losing their job or worst become accountable for their actions, so the losses that we tax payer incur and the poor performance of the services rendered are directly related to the system that can’t stand on its own if it was a business.

Now I am not saying that all these people are lazy but if you look at some of the facts surrounding welfare for example, you will see the problems clearer than you would if you used the system. For example, many of the case workers here are represented by the union and their union is the biggest contributors (through their PAC) to political parties, PACs and 527s. This union outstrips all others by 20% in all political contributions and the only reason they are there is to keep in place and expand welfare and health care to create more jobs. The next one in line is the teachers union and we all know about them. Make sense?

I read a really good manuscript (book?) on Kennedy and his proposed welfare system of 1961/62. It really has a lot of info on what went on with Kennedy’s administration and their push for welfare. Somewhere in the manuscript is a chapter about the systematical dismantling of religious based aid in America in the late 60’s to ensure that nothing interferes with the welfare state and you may have noticed that the present administrations funding of faith based social programs are called all failures but look closely at the rhetoric.

In this manuscript, there was an interview by the author with Senator Lausche in early 1962 and he made a few predictions that have come true. He said that the welfare state proposals “….the idea that we will start reliving poverty in our country is missed by the authors of the White House State Welfare proposal. In fact we may end up creating an underclass we will never be able to eliminate and perpetually will need to maintain this underclass that may go beyond what we feel would be any reasonable measure to limit or eliminate poverty.” In late ’62, there was another interview about Kennedy’s welfare state proposal of ’63 “the use of the peace corp internally would make more sense at this time than to have the federal government create a new system to deal with poverty and the problems some Americans face” He continued “…. that we have no system or a failing system in not true and the White House knows that we already have a volunteer system that works quite well but are lacking in areas where there are few volunteers for consistent work. Expanding the Peace Corp would alleviate the problem and would expand the already 17 million Americans who do charity work to a level that would benefit America without the cost or the bureaucracy. Last year we accepted 13,000 Cuban children into America and we lack the means to cover them. President Kennedy has indicated any relief for them but Americans have helped.”

I love the most recent stab at government involvement is “Don’t worry Hank, the government will take care of me”:p

Also read this

PublicEye.org - Decades of Distortion
 
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arkjarhead

Veteran Expediter
Well I guess I can't say anything about welfare because I'm on VA disabilty. There is one difference between myself and alot of others. I'm in a program where I'm going to school so I can re-enter the work force. As young as I am Uncle Sam will get all the money back he spent to put me through school through me paying taxes. I have no problem with that. What I have a problem with are the people who are on welfare just because they don't want to work. My daddy always told me lazy wasn't a disability and you can't take a pill for it. I listen to it all day long at school. Some of these people get free tution and books, gas vouchers, utilites paid, and food stamps all becuase they got knocked up outside of wed lock. Then they have the nerve to complain and say they are hard up. You got to be kidding me right?

Now I'm about to get off topic a little to get something off my chest. I hear alot of talk about people being on welfare and what not because there are no jobs where they live. What ever happened to moving to where the jobs are at? Back in the late 40s my daddy's daddy went out to California to work on a dam project in southern California.Not because he already had a job on the project, he just read a flyer saying they needed men and it said where to report so he took himself and my grandma and went. When that was over he went up north of Bakersfeild and worked as an assitant manager at a place that made crates for produce to be shipped in. When that ran out he came back to Arkansas. My grandma had two brothers who hoboed their way to Washington state to pick apples back in the 30s. Then another time they hoboed up to West Virginia to work in the coal mines until it blew up and one got killed the other was pinned inside with his brother's dead body for 2 days. The point I'm trying to make is what has happened to America's strength and endurance? People just lay down anytime anything bad happens. Just before I had to quit driving I received a really good job offer in Wyoming and was getting ready to take it. Is their some new law I don't know about that says you have to die where you were born? Move, find a dang job, and go home and visit on vacation. My rant is over and I feel better.
 

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
Your absolutely right tho Joe....where's the wanna??? Wheres the fight?, where's the spirit?
Great rant!! :)
Off topic here....I see ole Glory flying in a stiff wind and ya know ya got one good looking flag there!! It instills something in me!!
 

arkjarhead

Veteran Expediter
Well I guess people have gotten the attitude why bother busting my butt if the government will take care of me. Someone I know personally has a job with no insurance. I tried to help him get on at 2 different places where he could make more per hour plus have insurance. There was only one catch though. He would have had to really work instead of halfway do things like where he is currently employed. His wife is pregnant now, but he isn't worried because she got on Medicade and has a WIC interview coming up.
 

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
Well Joe..here's my take.....The Canadian system isn't all that bad as some have said..there's always exceptions to the norm...I've never had a problem getting to a specialist bout 4-6 weeks if it weren't life threatening...One can take better care of themselves generally because they aren't scared to get the big bill and don't have insurance companies to deal with.
My wife when she moved to Canada got nutrition counselling for type2 diabetes. lab tests by the dozens and now her condition is under control. In Maryland she had some coverage but insurance cancelled her upon renewal....
Down here you guys got a bum deal....a real bum deal....the sales tax in most states is approaching double digits and we get nothing to show for it....In Canada, the National sales tax GST has dropped from 7 to 5 % in the last 2 years. Canada has now conceded to private clinics if one has the bucks...so one now has a choice....doctors and nurses aren't flooding out of the country like they used to....the tide has turned....The common patient doesn't see the beuracratic stuff as greg mentioned....its all at the top end.
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
Well Joe..here's my take.....The Canadian system isn't all that bad as some have said..there's always exceptions to the norm...I've never had a problem getting to a specialist bout 4-6 weeks if it weren't life threatening...One can take better care of themselves generally because they aren't scared to get the big bill and don't have insurance companies to deal with.

Yes OVM, the Canadian system is good for general practice issues where the costs can be kept under control but it is the catastrophic care that the system fails miserably. Living in a Border city, I seen more Canadians at my doctors office then I did any other people. My wife works with a lot of Canadian patients who come here for treatment. But the other thing is if people are worried about the 'big' bills and working with the insurance companies, they that is their fault. Outside of a few common situations, most people don't ever read the insurance information that they get nor do they know how (not who) to call and ask questions - because they don't want to read the information.


My wife when she moved to Canada got nutrition counselling for type2 diabetes. lab tests by the dozens and now her condition is under control. In Maryland she had some coverage but insurance cancelled her upon renewal....

I think both the UK and Canada have recognized prevention, which is some thing we are so so lacking. We should have free programs for nutrition, excersize and other issue and reward the people with their work maintaining a good lifestyle. BUT also be more liberal with the checkups and routine examines - this is not for the government to institute but the insurance companies.


Down here you guys got a bum deal....a real bum deal....the sales tax in most states is approaching double digits and we get nothing to show for it....In Canada, the National sales tax GST has dropped from 7 to 5 % in the last 2 years. Canada has now conceded to private clinics if one has the bucks...so one now has a choice....doctors and nurses aren't flooding out of the country like they used to....the tide has turned....The common patient doesn't see the beuracratic stuff as greg mentioned....its all at the top end.

I agree but one reason we have such high sales tax in the states is the way the money flows into and out of Washington. If we didn't have to send it through the federal government for welfare programs and the roads, then we would not have any problems.

But why should a person have to have a set income to gain access to clinics?
 

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
Anyone can go to a clinic if they have the money or private insurance.....

I suppose it's like any huge program it's a work in progress....it's changing constantly to changing social lifestyles and needs.....Nothing stays the same always moving forward one would hope...a program as big as this can never be cast in stone. Now that I am here, I'll just have to accept a different way of doing things.
The horror stories go both ways...when growing up in Canada we read about so many going broke, losing life savings and all that, we thanked our lucky stars that can never happen to us....Its the Canadian way, not the wrong way just different then the U.S way....and thats ok too. But there are some here that infer that if's not the U.S way it's not right...to them I say "fuddleduddle"
 

Robsdad

Seasoned Expediter
Here's how I see it.
I am 59 retired, company canceled out retirement insurance. After my doctor's consultation I was informed I would have to pay 40% up front of a 30k operation, hospital stay and rehab. I have a credit score of near 800. I pay my bills. But no special payment plan here. Now you guys see why there are government programs. The private sector could give a shi* about the health of the citizens, they are like the rest of us. They are in it for the money. Sure there are those out there that abuse the system. But imagine a world without county health departments. The disease would run rampant because underprivileged people would be left without. Sorry guys thats the way I see it.
 

arkjarhead

Veteran Expediter
I just don't see where universal health care should be a presidential nominee's top priority. I think there are many more important things. I know many people who have health issues. I go to school with a gy whose mother has a rare form of pancreatitis. She is going to have to go to Charleston,SC to see a doctor. Her church has rallied behind her with fundraisers and what not to help her with the costs. In the township where I live a couple gave birth to a premie. Everyone banded together and gave what they could. I'm afraid you will be let down if this universal health care does take affect. Plus I hear Hillary wants to penalize people financially if they choose not to take part in her program. She must have got the blue print for this program the former USSR.
 

Robsdad

Seasoned Expediter
Ark:
I for one do not believe either of these plans will ever get through congress. I also do not believe that Hillary will be the nominee. I believe it will be between Obama and the war machine McCain. We spend 9 billion a month in Iraq. 100 more years and the Repubs are worrying about the cost of Gov. Health Care. I guess if you care more about foreigners than Americans that would be a great party to be affiliated with. thanks but no thanks. I denounce my status. I will vote Democrat this election. Regardless of which of them gets the nomination.
 

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
Interesting way to look at it Rob....spend more on war and foriegn policy then spend on your own citizens.....ummm

My mind wanders at times...I know someone will correct me here in this line of thought...BUT why is it the U.S. is one of the lone almost standalone countries without a defined type of healthcare plan? There are those that naysay and want to go it on thier own and be in control of thier care....thats fine, thats your right, BUT why chastize those who want some sort of comprehensive healthcare system.
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
OVM, you take care of your citizens by doing what you are supposed to do, follow the constitution and allow them to make choices, make money and let them decide what is good for them. When you start as a government putting restrictions on the citizens and try to take care of them in their every day lives, then you become a dictator - no other way around it.

As you will read, I use the word Freedom. It really is the solution not the cause for the problems.


Sorry OVM and Robsdad, but there are a lot of reasons why the US has not gone to any socialized medical program.


1 – Comparing other countries to the US is wrong. There are cultural differences, philosophical differences and there is a stark difference in how freedom is defined. For example, freedom in the UK is not the same as our freedom where we define freedom as both civil and financial freedom. In the EU it is something that has little to do with financial freedoms but the freedom to move around and so on.

2 – Taking Canada for instance, our GDP is 10 times their size, our population is 10 times their size so any program that is to cover a large portion of the population is a great undertaking and may cost more than it is worth. For many it would seem to be a given that a country our size could provide free everything but in truth the larger the country, the more costly and complex the system has to be and the more far reaching effects it would have on the people it is there to serve – just look at the welfare system here, the VA health care system and Social Security. We have yet provided good health care for our veterans and their numbers are less then 4 million the last I heard and you really expect to have a system that will be able to take care of 313 million? Our biggest expense to our country is not the war, not the roads, not the largest employer in the world but Social Security. It cost us more to administer alone it than any other program we have, the cost of running it is so high that we can take all that money we collect and pay our debt down in 15 years. The solution is to eliminate it by phasing it out in 20 or 30 years but no one wants to do that. Oh ....and spending 9 billion on the war and another 3 billion a day on foreign aid is STILL a lot less than what is spent domestically.

3 – Our economy is completely different, even though it seems that we are the same, we are not. Our economy is driven by the small businesses, not the big corporation, Canada and the EU larger business seem to be the focus, but I may be wrong with Canada. The EU for example has a highly regulated economic system that is teetering on Fascist control measures all in order to produce an equal footing for all to maximize revenue for the EU to operate. We here in the US tend to look at regulations as a road block, taxes as a way to stifle growth and government intervention as un-American. This all goes hand in hand with Freedom, the individualism that the country was built on. See one very large problem is we have the worst tax system in the world here, we have the most punitive tax system and people fall for the big business is controlling everything BS because they can’t see what is going on in our government or understand that a candidate should not be speaking of communist type programs but ways of helping all of us without destroying the country.

4 – Our golden age was not today but it was exactly 100 years ago. At that time we had a balance of health care, public aid and access for all. We had reforms going on, anti-trust suits and a government that was working. Then we got income tax that was sold to us as a punishment of the rich for being rich and then our civil freedoms were restricted. Until the ‘30s, many of the working class looked for health care from local doctors who they can trust that lived in the community and that sometimes were paid for by corporate welfare. We didn’t have people dying in mass because there was no insurance or there was no government health plan. But thanks to the ‘30s, we ended up going from a “can do” attitude to an “I want it because” attitude. Culturally we are not fit to have the government do a thing for us and the fact that we watch the pandering to desperate people who in many cases can’t or won’t be responsible, we end up with more problems than solutions.

The solutions are few but they can work if we want them to but if you think that government is the solution for your problems, think again. Everything is a mess now because of government. The biggest and best change we can make is with our tax system, go ahead and read about the Fair Tax.
 

highway star

Veteran Expediter
Owner/Operator
Well I guess I can't say anything about welfare because I'm on VA disabilty.

That's an apples to oranges comparison. You EARNED that with your service to our country and you deserve it! Welfare is a so called "entitlement" that people don't need to earn or, necessarily, deserve.
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
That's an apples to oranges comparison. You EARNED that with your service to our country and you deserve it! Welfare is a so called "entitlement" that people don't need to earn or, necessarily, deserve.

I agree 100%, there is more we can do for the vets but I feel we fail them.

Ark, I had a girlfriend on welfare with her two kids and she acted like it was her right to get it. I lined her up with a job, provided her a car and even made sure she had new clothes for the job. The job was really easy, all she had to do was to run errands for a law firm at the Ren Cen (where GM is now HQed at), it was part time with health and retirement and had flexible hours but the pay was like she had a full time job. It lasted three weeks because it was too hard. Too HARD! She carried a brief case, she parked where ever she wanted to when she dealt with the city (which was most of the time), she could come in late (11am) or early and worked four hours a day if she wanted to but it was too hard. Her biggest complaint was that her welfare would be cut off, to nothing.The amount of money she made form her job covered everything plus she could have saved for a house but nooooooo she had to stay on welfare. When she told me she quit, I told her I did too. I had the car picked up and sold it to the first person that came a long.

So please do not ever feel that you are not deserving of any benefit yo earned.
 

davekc

Senior Moderator
Staff member
Fleet Owner
Take the bureaucratic red tape out of health care and it would be affordable to most. Combine that with private insurance that actually guarantees coverage, and the problem is solved.
Woudn't hurt to put restraints on the free health care for immigrants and fraud.
Don't need free health care as it wouldn't be actually free. Premiums would just be higher and collected through the government.

The latest is Health Net getting their behind sued for 9 Mil because they dropped a lady's coverage because she got cancer. I get tired of insurance companies constantly trying to screw the public. That is where government intervention is needed.
 
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Robsdad

Seasoned Expediter
davekc:
I am glad you brought that up. I saw that yesterday and was floored. This is why some of us cannot afford health insurance. A travesty. The judge and jury should have their sack split and run their foot through it. Sorry about the french but that's the way I feel.
 

davekc

Senior Moderator
Staff member
Fleet Owner
I agree. This is where the intervention is needed. I hope it is a wave of things to come.
I heard on the news that they are also being sued for dropping 1600 other people in CA for this kind of crap.
A day couldn't come sooner to see this actually dealt with.

The wife's dad who is a physician has a local clinic and it is totally ridiculous that half of the employees are there just for billing and insurance.
 

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
Greg...I understand about the logistics of trying to manage such a huge white elephant such as healthcare and SS....In Canada with the acceptance of private clinics it's helping take some of the load off the public system....it's a mix of both systems...
And Greg....Canadians let the government manage thier healthcare long time ago....it was a choice not a dictation...
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
Greg...I understand about the logistics of trying to manage such a huge white elephant such as healthcare and SS....In Canada with the acceptance of private clinics it's helping take some of the load off the public system....it's a mix of both systems...
And Greg....Canadians let the government manage thier healthcare long time ago....it was a choice not a dictation...

So...

1 - the problem is that Canada has been moving towards more private services, it never started out that way. The Canadian Government, for all it's glory has decided to provide financial disincentives for private doctors and clinics until recently when they realized that the quality level has dropped among their doctors and that the knowledge pool has gone away. You don't have to take my word for it, my sister works with a lot of Canadian doctors who can not practice in Windsor.

2 - Everyone I know has said the same thing, it was not their choice to have or want. Many feel that even though the government kicks in most of the cost, there are still a lot of issues. For me Canada's system is a better system than the UK but not as good as the US or Germany.

3 - Also didn't one of your MP's come here for surgery? A liberal MP? Why come here to the states?

4 - the real issue is not taking care of people, it is controlling 15% of the US GDP. We still outspend and are still on the cutting edge of medical care in the country. As Dave eluded, the issue is really the doctors/hospital cost, if we want to straighten it all up, it can't be by the government.

5 - And in the UK, they are cutting back on medical care for a lot of people. Dental work, which was never the brit's highest concern was the first to go in rural areas - clinics closing due to a shortage of funding.
 
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