Georgia vs. Russia

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
awe...I see now..all this is predicated on the assumption of countrys with social programs are bad....

guess we'll see how this spins out...Its hard to believe the worlds all wrong and the U.S is right....
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
Layout,
Here is the problem, the EU is shaking in their slippers. They depend on Russia for energy and electricity, France being the exception right now. If they as the EU opposed Russia, they may face some sort of terrorist attack on the pipelines supplying the energy to EU.

I think one real issue is our power with Nato, we put the most money into Nato and when we want to see a country join Nato, we should have enough clout to get it done. If Georgia was in Nato, I doubt that there would be the severity of the attack that happened.

Testing others defenses takes time. You know how the Ruskis work, they have the patients and time on their side.
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
OVM, The Soviets "force" thier will on everyone they can. They develope thier power base at the point of a gun. Again, you had better read some history. It IS starting again. Greg was right, they have time on thier side. Time and people that think that they are nice people. The United States gets along with MOST but not all of the Socialist states. We do fine with England, Canada, Germany, France (for the most part) all of Scandinavia and so one. We have not "forced" them into capitolism. They do not kill millions of thier people to keep them in line. It is kind of easy in Europe since they have never really had a history of freedom and self determination. They have been "ruled" for hundreds of years. They had really stupid things like "Kings and Queens". The idea that a person can run your life just because he or she is born into a incestuis family is absurd. Just how stupid must a person be to accept that. That is why I hate Socialism. It takes away my right to self-determination. Only I know what is best for me. Only I know who is the best doctor for me. No one is going to rule me. They will have to kill me to control me. If my mother could not control me what make anyone else think they can. I AM FREE and will stay that way. New Hampshire's state motto says it best, LIVE FREE OR DIE!!!! I agree with that to my last breath. Layoutshooter.
 

chefdennis

Veteran Expediter
Now here is a "take' i haven't seen discussed on this topic:

From The Times
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle4535173.ece
August 15, 2008

Kremlin dusts off Cold War lexicon to make US villain in Georgia


Charles Bremner in Moscow

Russians were told over breakfast yesterday what really happened in Georgia: the conflict in South Ossetia was part of a plot by Dick Cheney, the Vice-President, to stop Barak Obama being elected president of the United States.

The line came on the main news of Vesti FM, a state radio station that — like the Government and much of Russia's media — has reverted to the old habits of Soviet years, in which a sinister American hand was held to lie behind every conflict, especially those embarrassing to Moscow. Modern Russia may be plugged into the internet and the global marketplace but in the battle for world opinion the Kremlin is replaying the old black-and-white movie.

The Obama angle is getting wide play. It was aired on Wednesday by Sergei Markov, a senior political scientist who is close to Vladimir Putin, the Prime Minister and power behind President Medvedev.

“George Bush's Administration is promoting interests of candidate John McCain,” said Dr Markov. “Defeated by Barak Obama on all fronts, McCain has one last card to play yet - the creation of a virtual Cold War with Russia . . . Bush himself did not want a war in South Ossetia but his Republican Party did not leave him any choice.” The Americans were now engineering an armed conflict between Ukraine and Russia, Dr Markov added.

The Establishment and its media supporters are dusting off favourites from the Cold War shelf. Sergei Lavrov, the Foreign Minister, accused Washington of playing dangerous games. The West was guilty of “adventurism”, supporting aggression against peace-loving Russian forces who are engaged on a humanitarian mission to protect human life.

Yesterday's headline in Commersant, a generally admired newspaper, announced with old-style sarcasm the imminent American “Military Humanitarian Landing” in Georgia.

A classic of Soviet-speak also came from Vasili Lickhachev, a former Russian Ambassador to the EU. “The West has spent a lot of time, energy and money to teach Georgia the tricks of the trade . . . to make the country look like a democracy,” he said.

“We and many other nations see through this deceit. We understand that the seditious tactics of the so-called colour revolutions are a real threat to international law and the source of global legal nihilism.”

These grooves from the Cold War grave are shrugged off by many Russians but they strike a chord in a nation ready once again to see itself as the victim of outside conspiracy. Blogs everywhere attract conspiracy lovers but Russian blogs have been exceptionally rich this week in theories of Western skulduggery over Georgia.

The old thinking finds more fertile ground now because, in the view of disillusioned Russians, President Bush relaunched the ideological war through a compliant American media, especially at the time of the invasion of Iraq.

“In the old days under Soviet rule we didn't believe a word of our own propaganda but we thought that information was free in the West and we longed for it,” said Katya, a middle-aged Muscovite. “But we have learnt since that the West has its own propaganda and in some ways it is more powerful because people believe it.”

Moscow is using novel methods to spread a very unsubtle, Cold War version of the Caucasian conflict to the world. Chief among them is Russia Today, a state 24-hour news channel that is fronted much of the time by cheery British and other English-speaking television professionals.

The smiles and studio banter could come from BBC World or CNN but the story is unrelentingly the Kremlin version. Banners flash along at the bottom of the screen saying such things as “genocide” and “aggression” or “city turns into human hell, many people still trapped under rubble”.

Recapping the conflict yesterday RT's presenter said that Georgia's “brutal assault” had killed 1,600 civilians in its breakaway province in a campaign that destroyed 70 per cent of the buildings in Tskhinvali, its capital.

Russian forces had moved in only to bring peace as Georgian forces killed women and children who were trying to flee, it said. Throughout its rolling cover of alleged Georgian atrocities, there was no mention of the heavy Russian military offensive.

The coverage goes down well in developing countries that want an alternative to CNN and BBC World Service, a Russian official said. “We have learnt from Western TV how to simplify the narrative.”

The Soviet crackdown

— In January 1968 Alexander Dubcek became First Secretary of the Czechoslovak Communist Party, instituting the “Prague Spring” liberalising reforms

— In August the Soviet-led Warsaw Pact invaded, below, claiming that its assistance had been requested by Communist Party leaders. Dubcek was arrested

— Lyndon Johnson, the US President, declared the invasion in violation of the United Nations Charter, but America was in the middle of a presidential election campaign and a war in Vietnam. The West took no action

— In 1988 mass demonstrations marked the anniversary

— The Communists were finally ousted in 1989 and Václav Havel was elected President in what became known as the Velvet Revolution. Soviet forces withdrew in 1991
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
Layout,
The really sad thing is people seem to forget what the Soviet Union was all about. Many are clueless and other (younger people) don't or can't get a real education to know what it was like. So I would assume that many would not understand what the big deal is with Putin.

The other thing that comes to mind is the internal propaganda that we used to fight here in this country. Once before the late 60's it was all kept in check but since then, it is a right.
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
You are right Greq, as long as everyone has thier "Brewskis" and the favorite (insert your favorite sport here) on TV they just don't care about anything else. Besides, they only go after things that arn't important, nothing I like to do. And the government SHOULD take care of me, I am entitled. Who cares what happens to the "other" guy, the "Mean" (insert your most hated big company here) or those selfish rich people who don't pay thier share (which has to be at least 20 times what they pay.) of taxes. The commies have most likely won already. I have to decided where "FA" Free America will be and move there before Osama Obama and his henchmen take over. You can bet your boots your neighbors will be turning in every malcontent that they can, for the reward of course. We already have "thought crimes" and police them. You know, hate crimes. We already have "food crimes" being proposed and the FDA will be impowered to inforce "eating crimes". Why I wasted my life protecting these people is beyond me. I feel as though I wasted my life. Layoutshooter
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
I have specific reasons to be concern with the idea of going down that path of domestic terror in the form of an all seeing/all knowing government. The point is that if we decide to go down that path of everything is done for our betterment, than we loss what we had. I see that with Obama and in many ways with McCain.

I also think that we can count on the parallels between us and Georgia, we may see the same type of issues they have in the past with Russia but our problem will be with China.
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
China concerns me as well. They, as a people, have one saving grace. They love to work for themselfs and reap the benifits. One of the reasons that we engaged China in the way that we did is that we thought that once the people got a taste of what a free market could do for them they would force thier government into change. It still might happen. The average worker is starting to have things. It might just grow on them. Marxism in reverse. The developement of a huge middle class who want to keep more of what they earn might, just might, stem that tide. My dad was in China during WW2. One thing he remembers was how the Chineese pesents would start little businesses when the American troops came into an area. Laundry service, barbers, he even had young boys turning the generator cranks for him. They would work for cigarettes, food and what money they could get. The more they made the harder they worked. It impressed my dad. Russia has no such backround. Who knows what will happen? If they come around Russia will not even try anything. They know that if that ever happens they are toast!!! Layoutshooter
 

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
Question...Layout.and pundits....

You say socialism doesn't work
A true democracy doesn't work

The forefathers came up with a twink and created a Republic Democracy.

Here it is 250 yrs later a the system has evolved into choas...
Politicians have devised a way thru layers of government and little rules to almost be untouchable...
Lobby groups, special interest groups...
Campaign contributions...
The politicians all owe favors to these "interest"
Government can't do anything...

It's been going bad since created.

Maybe ..just maybe...the Repubic Democracy won't work either???
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
Well the problem with Russia is that when the Soviet Union collapsed, we were not around. We celebrated, we cheered and than went home. We let them just fall and not really inspired them to clean up their society and put in place a real government.

I know a few who left after the fall and a couple who came here in the early '80s and they all agree with the former KGB people in power, the new style Stalin days are just around the corner.

I said this before that they fell too fast.
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
OVM, you are right, NO government works forever. All will become oppressive. All will fall into tyranny. Jefferson (I think it was him) said it was the DUTY of every free man to over throw thier government every 200 years. We are well past that point. The problem with socialism is that the entire idea is wrong. It assumes that man cannot take care of himself. It assumes that a select few are smarter and can take of things better than the individule can. It assumes stupidity of the masses. It is not much different than a monarchy. They just assumed they were better because of blood lines. I believe that only I can handle my problems. I assume that I know whats best for me and my family. I assume that government sucks at best and is for the most part evil. Power corrupts. Absolute power leads to absolute corruption. Socialism demands absolute power. That was the reason for the right to bear arms. To insure that the government could NOT have absolute power. The ulitmate check and balance. I will remain free. Those people in my post on what our leaders are NOT are solid proof they the vast majority of people can take care of themselfs. They were only a few of hundreds that I know like that. They are the only kind of people that I hang around with. Winners. Hard working and proud. They ask for nothing and give back everything. True Americans. Not whinny, not malcontents. They just DO!!! My kind of people. Socialism will destroy them, and me. It hates independence.

Greg, you are right for the most part leaving Russia alone. We have been sending them billions every year in aid. We did try to engage them economically but they are not into what it takes to suceed in a free market. All the years that the Russian people were oppressed, first by the Czars and then by socialism have taken thier toll. The majority of the Russian people are drones, worker bees. They are taught what we called "applied mediachraty". The dumber you are the easier you are to control. That theroy works well. Just look what our publics school have done here. Layoutshooter
 

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
Now you guys everytime I say something y all just ignore what you don't like...
Canada has a managed healthcare...NOT free either, employers pay a %age on thier payroll totals..and I paid on my self-employment income...
The Health Act was not forced on people...they WANTED it...If we didn't want it we could have defeated the sitting government. There are now private clinics allowed for the first time for people who can afford it to help ease the burden and free up time to accelerate the care...There are waiting lines for some procedures but at least they are trying....People now have a choice...

They expect the government to actually do something with our dollars and work for thiers...governing ain't just about the next war or worrying about what everyone else is doing...it's doing for your own people...

and apart from that the 2 countrys are the same....Welfare, unemployment and pension.
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Most of the Candians that I know left Canada to get away from the health care system. They got tired of the high taxes and the poor health care. Just the ones I know. About 50 or so. I hunt with two Canadian business owners, one is VERY succesfull. He comes to Michigan to hunt because of all the restriction on gun ownership in Canada. He keeps all his guns at a friends house. He told me last season that he will retire soon, sell his business, and move to the States so he can own a gun without living in fear of the government. Little does he know what is going to happen here. In this country it will be forced on us. We will have to pay the crippling taxes whether we want to use it or not. You can have government health care if you want it, under these circumstances only. 1. Only those who use it pay for it. NO TAX INCREASE TO PAY FOR IT!!!!!! NO NEW TAXES AT ALL!!!! 2. The health care is determined by doctors, NOT the government. ONLY the patients doctor can determine what treatment, what drugs, whaterver. NO allowed drug lists. NO long waiting lists for treatment. DO NOT CHANGE MY SITUATION IN ANYWAY SHAPE OR FORM!!!!!!!!!!!!! I WILL NOT PAY THE TAX!!!!!!!!! I WILL NOT ACCEPT ANY MORE GOVERNMENT CONTROL OVER MY LIFE!!!!!!!! PERIOD!!!!!!!! I will no longer have my life dictated to me by the losers that are our governments. It is not the smartest or the most honest running this country. It is not the cream that is floating to the top. I am fed up with the lies about our country, the lies about how great government controls are. I have more power than anyone can imagine. 1. I am a driver, dirvers could shut down this zoo in a hearth beat. 2. A gun owner, we represent the largest standing army on the face of the planet. 3. I own a pen, that pen writes out my tax payments. It will soon run out of ink!!! I pay more in taxes now than I pay for housing, food, health insurance and our health care COMBINED!!!! Enough is enough. I will care for my self and my wife. I will care for family that needs it. I WILL NOT PAY FOR ANYONE ELSE. I have given enough. NO MORE. Layoutshooter
 

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
This debate could go on forever...we both know people that have opposing views of thier respective countries...I have many people say, What you left Canada? you crazy? *LOL* and on and on it goes...
THAT said.....Layout....truce? am I still welcome for some wobbly pop????:D
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
I am not mad, just determined. One thing to think about. Osama Obama and Billery have BOTH said that there will be ENFORCEMENT involed in the National Health system. It is being designed not to provide health care as much as it is being designed to nationalize 30% of the economy. It will be used to "enforce" the leftest ideas. Like, heavy tax on fast food, already proposed by some Dems, outlawing of private gun ownership, tried in SEVERAL big cities already, on public health grounds, all by Demacratic mayors. It is about control here. I don't know what or how Canada's system is like. All I know is it controled by the government and not the doctors. Just look into the debate up there about the treatment of Hepitias B. Ontario will only approve the use of 30 year old, ineffective methods, the primary one being Interfearon. It is seldom effective. The anti-virals that work much better, the primary treatment here, are said to be too exspensive for Ontario. As to the wobbly pop, I think it is a fine idea, and some fried beer battered walleye, marinatted venison steaks, home fries, home made potato salad. I have not had lunch yet, if you can't tell. LOL Layoutshooter
 

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
*LOL* Layout..I am afraid if we get some beer in our belly it could be the War of 1812 all over again....and you might win it this time!!....*dig-dig*;)
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
We might!!! Hey, a little story about that war, very interesting. At that time the Lake Erie Lake levels were far lower than what they are today. In the year 2000 Lake Erie hit it's low point in this particular low cycle. Low and behold, the ends of a wooden road appeared on each side of Brest Bay near Monroe MI. The center of the road was still covered by water. The road was built by US forces to move supplies around the Great Black Swamp that covered most of the area from southern Wayne County MI to a little south of Toledo OH. It was a huge beautiful wetlands that has now all but gone. Only about 4300 acres left in MI. I just love my Great Lakes and the history that goes with them. I can show you what looks like a rook pile just south of where the Detroit River joins the lake. On some days that pile holds a number of small mouth bass. That rock pile, which is several hundred feet off shore, is the remains of the foundation of a farm house. That house was still being lived in at least into the late 1940's maybe longer. It is now often under 3 feet of water. That is how much higher Lake Erie is now. I often layout hunt near those rocks. Layoutshooter
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
Layout,
Off of Jefferson, where atwater and those streets were before the city 'cleared' them out, the original street level is four feet below the present level. It was raised up because of constent flooding and dock improvements and a big increase in the level because of the 1912/13 storms. I owned one warehouse lot after they tore down the warehouse and later my partner bought three others which we striped and reclaimed a lot of material out of. The city came in one day and ripped the docks and street up, going down almost five feet to find the end of the street 'improvements'. We got all the brick, the cobble stone (which included a large quantity of trolley tracks), three sets of very well preserved road planks and all kinds of neat old stuff from the fire at fort Detroit. Oh when we got into the group of warehouses, we found a lot of prints, survey maps, rail maps, ships logs and newspapers from the mid-1850s.
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
That is sooo cool. When we were first married we were renting the upper flat in an old house in Wyandotte. It was on Seventh street a couple of blocks off of Biddle (Jefferson). I was snooping around up the in attic one day and found the original deed to the house. It was not listed as Wyandotte MI but as Detroit Subdivision such and such. I forget the number. I also know an Indian ( I cannot rememeber his name right now to save my life) who has all of the original documents from President Monroe deeding everything south of Detroit to the Ohio line over to the State of Michigan. His (I forget how many greats) Grandfather was one of the signers of that treaty. I see him every year at the Pointe Moullie waterfowl festival. His grandson is really good in the River events. The water level cylces of the Great Lakes are one of the greatest mysteries in geology. No one knows to this day way they have these cycles. They appear to be a 80-200 year cycle, depending on who you talk too. The high cycle that started in about 1966-67 and went to around 1995 was one of the highest on record, or at least we think it is. It is kind of hard to say. With so many wetlands and wet prarie gone we really don't know how far inland Lake Erie used to go in the high cycle years. I know in Monroe county it went as far inland as Petersburg. Talk to Joe Robison, head DNR waterfowl bioligist for SE Michigan. He knows the whats and were fors about Lake levels better than most anyone I know. Dick Whitwam, Chairman of the Pointe Moullie Waterfowl Festival knew the farmer that lived in the house I was talking about in a prior post. Dick (RiverWolf) was a "waterman" on the side. His main job was with Chrysler. He was a layout (duck hunting) guide on the river for 22 years. He also was a commercial fisherman etc. He can tell you lots of interesting things about the area. Layoutshooter
 
Top