paullud
Veteran Expediter
Are you saying that government dependents could care less they are hurting the country or that xiggi would deliver a van full of child porn to NAMBLA as long as he was paid $2/mile?
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For the Obama Supporters
- Thread starter davekc
- Start date
Are you saying that government dependents could care less they are hurting the country or that xiggi would deliver a van full of child porn to NAMBLA as long as he was paid $2/mile?
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Nice thought, but not reality. Negotiations have little value if the one you seek something from has nothing to give. Once you understand that, the rest will all make sense.
Marxists and socialists concept of "fairness" has no concern of the extreme damage their idea of "fairness" causes.
EXAMPLE:
My almost 90 year old father, on a VERY fixed income, now has a tax bill that is more than 4 times what his house payment was when he was working. That TAX bill is to cover the costs of teachers, that he has no control over, policeman, that he has not control over etc etc. HOW is draining HIS fixed income, to provide for others, FAIR?
And the "unions" and the "fairness" crowd does NOT give a FLIP who's lives they destroy. They ALL use "Obama Math" 110 - 250 = 4000 for their members. As long as the printing presses have ink they can be happy. NO need to have any concern of "fairness" for others.
No matter who's lives they ruin in the pursuit of their power.
cubansammich
Not a Member
A tax bill that is four times more than what your father's house payment was when he purchased the home? How long ago did he do so? Would he sell that home today for what he paid for it? Most of us can either commiserate with him now or will be able to one day. Inflation never sleeps. It has little to do with policemen, the cost of teachers etc., other than the fact these people deal with the same issues as your father.
cubansammich
Not a Member
This unfortunately is correct most of the time. I view the UAW as incredibly evil. I won't get into the auto bailouts in this thread but suffice to say sharing ownership between the auto companies and the union is in effect a conspiracy between the two. This does not mean the concept of collective bargaining is wrong, it just means the current players need to be reeled in a little.
The value of that home has DROPPED by 40% over the last few years due to socialist programs that artificially inflated home prices.
It has EVERYTHING to do with today's employees. One cannot get raises when the people paying the bills are going in the hole.
It also does not matter what he paid back when he bought it. ARE the socialist and Marxists that drive him OUT of his house to pay for wages that cannot be sustained provide for his needs? I DOUBT that very much.
NO ONE CARES about what's fair for him. INCLUDING the "fairness bunch". Want me to give you his phone # so YOU can tell him how FAIR it is to lose his home? Somehow I doubt that too.
Teachers and fireman may or may not deal with the same issues. Some of that depends on the location. One one extreme they may be totally underpaid. On the other, they may well be overpaid. Look at California. You have a average taxpayer at 50k a year supporting teachers at 65k plus a pension and fireman at 200k a year with a pension.
Are they dealing with the same issue as the average 50k taxpayer. Maybe, maybe not.
Are they dealing with the same issue as the average 50k taxpayer. Maybe, maybe not.
In the area in which I live we have declining wages, declining home values, teachers and policemen DEMANDING wage INCREASES. There is NO money for that. Our firefighters are volunteers. MY kind of people. They understand the reality of life. ANY bets on how many of THEM have degrees? They are NOT in unions. THEY CARE about those they serve. Just as MRS. Layoutshooter and I did when WE volunteered.
Do you have a fleet? Each MAN should succeed, OR FAIL, on HIS own performance.
That's a nice theory, but the reality is that one man [or woman's] failure can endanger the success [and lives] of many others: soldiers, police/firefighters.
Unions by pass individual performance insuring lower standards.
Wrong. It's management that demands standards for performance, and mandates what the standards will be. Just as it's the carriers who determine how many miles we can drive in a specified period, and tell us when we 'should' arrive at the destination.
They 'protect' the lazy, the drunks, druggies and bums, to insure dues.
UH huh - jobs being so plentiful they need to worry about it....
They eliminate reward for superior performance.
They eliminate removing the failures, lowering the output of all.
Back to the first answer.
There are problems with unions [the whole us vs them thing, to start with], but not what you keep talking about - that's just popular myth and misconception.
bobwg
Expert Expediter
Y
Yes it should be mangement that demand and set standards but unions block them or make it impossible to fire some one that is not meeting those standards. One big example the teachers unions which continue to block setting teacher standards so we can get rid of those teachers that are not performing well and get good teachers that can perform wellDo you have a fleet? Each MAN should succeed, OR FAIL, on HIS own performance.
That's a nice theory, but the reality is that one man [or woman's] failure can endanger the success [and lives] of many others: soldiers, police/firefighters.
Unions by pass individual performance insuring lower standards.
Wrong. It's management that demands standards for performance, and mandates what the standards will be. Just as it's the carriers who determine how many miles we can drive in a specified period, and tell us when we 'should' arrive at the destination.
They 'protect' the lazy, the drunks, druggies and bums, to insure dues.
UH huh - jobs being so plentiful they need to worry about it....
They eliminate reward for superior performance.
They eliminate removing the failures, lowering the output of all.
Back to the first answer.
There are problems with unions [the whole us vs them thing, to start with], but not what you keep talking about - that's just popular myth and misconception.
cubansammich
Not a Member
Without trying to sound sarcastic isn't what you are describing the result of taking risks? In an earlier post you talked about how how each man should succeed or fail on his own performance. Choosing your place of residence was just that: a choice. Choice = Performance. This isn't to say you shouldn't have a reasonable expectation of moderate taxation and a responsible management of it. Having said that, home ownership is not and was not ever the best use of an individual's hard earned money. The return on investment is rarely more than a break even if that if one stays there too long. They sold people on the idea of it being the American Dream. Some dream!
Do you have a fleet? Each MAN should succeed, OR FAIL, on HIS own performance.
That's a nice theory, but the reality is that one man [or woman's] failure can endanger the success [and lives] of many others: soldiers, police/firefighters.
Unions by pass individual performance insuring lower standards.
Wrong. It's management that demands standards for performance, and mandates what the standards will be. Just as it's the carriers who determine how many miles we can drive in a specified period, and tell us when we 'should' arrive at the destination.
They 'protect' the lazy, the drunks, druggies and bums, to insure dues.
UH huh - jobs being so plentiful they need to worry about it....
They eliminate reward for superior performance.
They eliminate removing the failures, lowering the output of all.
Back to the first answer.
There are problems with unions [the whole us vs them thing, to start with], but not what you keep talking about - that's just popular myth and misconception.
Not sure where you are getting that management sets the standards? Not even close. Unions in most cases are trying to dictate the standards. Look at education. Teachers want NO performance evaluations. They also want tenure with no accountibilty. Shorter work weeks with higher pay and specific high end pensions. One has to look no further than the current Chicago school strike.
Going the other direction, Look at the UAW. Unions in just about every instance dictate what a job is, how it is done, and for how long. That is how you get a floor sweeper at 20 dollars an hour. Management isn't driving that. They are tolorating it and passing the cost.
Why does it take three people to unload a truck at the Ford plant when they use one at a Toyota plant. Simple. Union rules have one person running the tow motor, one person counting the load, and the other opening the dock door. That is a union requirement because one can't do the work of another. That is hardly a endorsed protocol from management.
Poor performance is protected by the unions. I have seen it my entire life. You can believe what ever you like. I am not going to be told what I can or cannot make by a union. IF I do more and better work I SHOULD be paid more than someone who does not. Drunks and those on drugs at work SHOULD be fired and NOT brought back. Same with thieves. No second chances.
As to soldiers and firefighters, we only want the best. BOTH in performance and team work. There is NO room for unions in the PUBLIC sector.
As to soldiers and firefighters, we only want the best. BOTH in performance and team work. There is NO room for unions in the PUBLIC sector.
cubansammich
Not a Member
Bob said:
Yes it should be mangement that demand and set standards but unions block them or make it impossible to fire some one that is not meeting those standards. One big example the teachers unions which continue to block setting teacher standards so we can get rid of those teachers that are not performing well and get good teachers that can perform well
I'm with you on that. There needs to be a code of standards or some way to measure the effectiveness of a teacher, unions or not.
Yes it should be mangement that demand and set standards but unions block them or make it impossible to fire some one that is not meeting those standards. One big example the teachers unions which continue to block setting teacher standards so we can get rid of those teachers that are not performing well and get good teachers that can perform well
I'm with you on that. There needs to be a code of standards or some way to measure the effectiveness of a teacher, unions or not.
cubansammich
Not a Member
Yes.
Unions do not bypass individual performance by design. I used to pick apples in the fall when I was a kid. For every 10 good apples there were probably 1 or 2 bad ones. It's just the nature of things but you are probably right because there is no such thing as a drunk or drug addict or a lazy person in an a non union shop.