Conscientious Objector

[layoutshooter]

This is not a thread to argue the pros-cons or the right or wrong of the abortion issue. It is however a thread to discuss whether or not those of us who object to the proceedure, should be forced to pay for it. As far back as WW1, maybe furture I don't know for sure, it was possible to forgo military service if your religion/morals forbid you to fight. The term for a person like that was a conscientious objector. It is difficult to get that status but the government recognizes the importance of the beliefs of the individual. Obama has lifted the ban on giving tax dollars to groups that offer abortions or abortion counselling I find my self in the position of conscientious objection. Why should I be forced to pay for a proceedure that is against my moral beliefs and is against the teaching of my life long religion? I see no difference between the two things. My beliefs on abortion are no less valid than a person who does not believe in going to war. Where do people like me get to appeal? I fear no where. I will have to make a choice to break the tax laws so as not to support abortion or pay for them against my every belief. No one should be in this position. Layoutshooter

 

[OntarioVanMan]

There is alot of things that our tax dollar supports we don't approve of personally....like welfare, SS, health care..and more...abortion is just one of them issues....

There was a case in Canada...the guy didn't want a portion of his union dues used to support a certain political party. He took it to court and they ruled in his favour that he could indeed "direct the portion of dues to a direction of his choice" The fact in a closed union shop your freedom of choice is limited.

I don't believe in using abortion as a means of birth control..that is just wrong...

A woman shouldn't have to look at the face of her rapist in the form of the baby or incestious relative...
and she shouldn't be forced to go thru the birth just to put it up for adoption to the above example.
She shouldn't have to decide her life or the babies if she is in danger of a bad birth for health reasons...

 

[layoutshooter]

I do agree that everyone pays for things through things that they don't like with thier tax dollars. In the case of abortion I have religious and moral objections. The other things I object to because of the waste and what I believe to be detramental effects. Like welfare. That is not the case with the abortion issue. To use a term not used much in this age of "if it feels good do it" I believe it is a very serious sin. I believe that abortion for non-medical reasons is murder of an innocent human being. My religion teaches that. Layoutshooter

 

[OntarioVanMan]

non-medical reasons is murder of an innocent human being. My religion teaches that.

I am not big on brick and morter religions...but my internal sense of morality also says it's wrong.

 

[layoutshooter]

Again, I did not want to argue whether the beleif is right or wrong. It is my belief and that of my religion. I see no difference in that and a Quaker not serving in the miltary since one of the tenants of that religion is not fighting in the military. I think that this debate on using tax dollars for this will become a really big issue. It goes to the very beliefs of the Nation. Like freedom of religion and the right to practice your beliefs and not be forced to go against your beliefs. Layoutshooter

 

[OntarioVanMan]

Conscientious Objector...to come back to this in war time...did you agree? or did you think he/she was a coward? Unpatriotic?

did the objector not have the same rights your claiming now?

And have them same rights on the same grounds but different issue?

I am thinking of the Jimmy Stewart movie...Sgt York.....

 

[OntarioVanMan]

Again, I did not want to argue whether the beleif is right or wrong. It is my belief and that of my religion. I see no difference in that and a Quaker not serving in the miltary since one of the tenants of that religion is not fighting in the military. I think that this debate on using tax dollars for this will become a really big issue. It goes to the very beliefs of the Nation. Like freedom of religion and the right to practice your beliefs and not be forced to go against your beliefs. Layoutshooter

The only course of action I can see is maybe a class action suit with some that believe as you do...the right to direct a portion of your tax dollars away from this cause??

 

[layoutshooter]

I totally agree with the right of conscientious objection. That is part of freedom. The practice of a honest belief is not cowardece. I don't mean the popular version like we saw during Viet Nam where a lot of the objectors where doing so because it was in style. I am talking about true moral conviction. The Quakers have a centuries old belief and stick with it. It is nothing to be lightly taken. That is why it is so difficult to get the status of conscientious objector, to weed out those who object out of fear or conveniance. Layoutshooter

 

[OntarioVanMan]

I totally agree with the right of conscientious objection. That is part of freedom. The practice of a honest belief is not cowardece. I don't mean the popular version like we saw during Viet Nam where a lot of the objectors where doing so because it was in style. I am talking about true moral conviction. The Quakers have a centuries old belief and stick with it. It is nothing to be lightly taken. That is why it is so difficult to get the status of conscientious objector, to weed out those who object out of fear or conveniance. Layoutshooter

At least you are not a hypocrite that you can claim the high road but no one else can....

again

The only course of action I can see is maybe a class action suit with some that believe as you do...the right to direct a portion of your tax dollars away from this cause??

 

[layoutshooter]

I have no idea how to do what I believe. I have no represenation at the National level, all three are very liberal and I know will never hear such an arguement but I will try. I try not to be a hypocrite. Now off to church and then my younger brothers birthday bash. His name is "Dirt" He is younger than me and I am older than "Dirt" More later this evening. I wonder what the mighty Turtle thinks? Layoutshooter

 

[aristotle]

The allusion to "Sgt. York" was a good one. York, played by Gary Cooper, struggled mightily with his moral/religious convictions against war. Ultimately, he chose to fight.

I am reminded that a fellow Kentuckian, Mohammed Ali( then known as Cassius Clay) took a convenient religious conversion to Islam hoping to avoid the draft. It didn't work and he went to prison for failure to serve. In a fair draft, the humble and the mighty must serve. Remember Elvis Presley's induction?

Objecting to your tax dollars supporting abortion on demand is gonna be a tough nut to crack. Too many liberals entrenched in powerful government positions. They see abortion as a viable exit strategy when regrets settle in the morning after.

 

[chefdennis]

Its not all that hard to take yourself out of the tax "system", if you are willing to deal with whatever may come up later..and i can tell you the aking deals is NOT beyind the irs....

 

[letzrockexpress]

This is not a thread to argue the pros-cons or the right or wrong of the abortion issue. It is however a thread to discuss whether or not those of us who object to the proceedure, should be forced to pay for it. As far back as WW1, maybe furture I don't know for sure, it was possible to forgo military service if your religion/morals forbid you to fight. The term for a person like that was a conscientious objector. It is difficult to get that status but the government recognizes the importance of the beliefs of the individual. Obama has lifted the ban on giving tax dollars to groups that offer abortions or abortion counselling I find my self in the position of conscientious objection. Why should I be forced to pay for a proceedure that is against my moral beliefs and is against the teaching of my life long religion? I see no difference between the two things. My beliefs on abortion are no less valid than a person who does not believe in going to war. Where do people like me get to appeal? I fear no where. I will have to make a choice to break the tax laws so as not to support abortion or pay for them against my every belief. No one should be in this position. Layoutshooter

Thi seems quite fair to me. Though I consider myself pro-choice, I feel this is a serious enough issue that if someone feels they cannot morally contribute to such a practice, they should not have to.

 

[Turtle]

I'm not Pro Choice or Pro Life, I'm Pro Staying Out of the Mother's Business. If someone wants to get an abortion, no matter how you feel about it, it's none of your business. The only exception might the the one who got her pregnant, and even he takes a back seat to the mother.

Now, if you starting using tax dollars to pay for abortions, then it becomes my business, your business, everybody's business.

As for drawing a correlation between the direct decision of a conscientious objector to not fight in the military, and being able to conscientiously directly decide on where our elected representatives spend your tax dollars, there is simply no correlation to be drawn. If you opt out of the military for religious reasons, you still cannot prevent your tax dollars from being spent on the military. By the same token, if you oppose abortion, you're certainly free to not participate in one, but you aren't free to dictate that none of your tax dollars are to be spent on it.

The only way to effectively let your voice be heard is to call your Congressman and Senators and voice your opinions on the matter of how your tax dollars are spent, and lobby them to change the way those dollars are spent. If they refuse or are unable to get the job done, vote 'em out.

 

[Pilgrim]

When we fill out our tax forms every year, we are offered the option to check "yes" or "no" for the contribution to federal presidential election funds. Maybe we ought to have that same option for funding abortion clinics and their counselors. As previously suggested, this issue will probably wind up in court in the very near future.

 

[layoutshooter]

SO, I either have the choice of jail, death fighting going to jail or losing my soul for committing a sin of that magnitude. Petition John Dingell? Carl Levin? Debbie Stabenow? If I have those choices then no one should be allowed to opt out of anything. Many religions do not pay income tax on moral grounds. I don't believe in abortion, I believe it is vile and discusting. I will not support it. OK all you lefties who believe in anything goes, gonna protect my beliefs as I did yours for 20 years. Fat Chance. I have the right to NOT PAY for abortion, are you willing to jail or kill me for those beliefs? I did not change religions to last week, I have been what I am since birth. I believe I am right, think the ACLU will back me? LOL, right. Either I have the right to practice what my religious beliefs are under the First Amendment or I don't . I know Obama does not believe in the Constitution, do you?
Layoutshooter

 

[OntarioVanMan]

I don't know Joe...maybe some research on the web, maybe theres a user group with the same feelings as you....if you feel that strongly and feel that disgusted....its a cause worth fighting for.....it does have merit....

 

[layoutshooter]

Thank you for your support OVM, I am going to pursue this on a few fronts. I am sure I will lose then I will have to decide what my next move is but till then I will try. Layouthsooter

 

[OntarioVanMan]

Thank you for your support OVM, I am going to pursue this on a few fronts. I am sure I will lose then I will have to decide what my next move is but till then I will try. Layouthsooter

Ahh but Joe if you lose, you can say you fought the good fight...your mind will be clear of any guilt....

if you don't try, you'll always have doubts....

Remember you've been teaching me about the rights and freedoms of "Choice"

Don't go soft on me now....Good Luck buddy!!

 

[layoutshooter]

LOL, I have NEVER gone soft on anything. Layoutshooter