Best Synthetic Oil??

[raynchk]

Through the years I've gone round and round on this.. but since its almost time for the first oil change in my new 07 Sprinter, its time to ask again:

What is the best oil to use? My Sprinter came from the factory with 5w-40 Mobil 1 and factory recommendations are to change it and filter every 10,000 miles.

My race car/motorcycle/Mercedes addicted buddy tells me the BEST oil to use is AMSOIL. I checked it out on their website and it sounds pretty good, but a little difficult to get everywhere.

Anyone had any experience with it?

Thanks

Drive Safe

 

[gojack]

Amsoil, tried it, its oil.

Amsoil is a marketing company like Amway
they sell motor oils and lots of other stuff that make increadable claims about...

ALTRUM Nutritional Supplements, AquaBrite Water Filters, Pure Power Laundry Detergent, AGGRAND Natural Fertilizer, and DZM - Longevity Enzymes... The Ultimate Anti-Aging Supplement.

My favorite is A.J.'s Male Power (DMP):7 :+ :+ :7 :+


You may want to check out http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/
Forums there are very informative.

Dave

 

[Turtle]

The 2002-2006 Sprinter Technical Service Manual (the one the Sprinter Techs at the dealers use) states:

"The engine manufacturer strongly recommends the use of synthetic engine oils, such as Mobil® 1 SAE 0W-40."

OK, a couple of things. One is, it is not an insignificant thing that a specific brand and weight of oil is mentioned by name in the manual. Most technical service manuals simply state something along the lines of, "Use a high quality oil," or, "Use an approved engine oil," or something along those lines. When a manual mentions a specific oil, do take note.

Second, you have to start thinking European when you own a Sprinter. With American cars and engines, when they say use 30 weight oil, most any ol' 10W-30 is gonna be fine. For example, you say your Sprinter came from the factory with Mobile 1 5W-40 as the initial fill (which may or may not be entirely accurate). You may be thinking, "OK, a really good synthetic 5W-40 and I'm good to go." And you'd be wrong. American cars have engines in them that are built to accommodate a wide range of motor oils. Not so with European engines. They are so tightly spec'd to the oil that they build the engine and then they engineer an oil to use in it.

The owner's manual will list all the approved oils. Stick with the list. Always stick with the list, especially with European engines. Regardless of what you think, what a friend, buddy, mechanic, me, or anyone else says, the manufacturer's opinion trumps everyone else. Stick with the list.

There is a small percentage of 2004 and 2005 Sprinters that had the initial fill done with Shell Rotella T dino oil. The rest had the initial fill done with Mobile 1 0W-40. Far as I know, the initial fill for the 2007 models is "Mobile 1 ESP Formula M 5W-40" (which is a way different animal than Mobile 1 5W-40). If you're going to switch to another oil at first oil change, then make sure it's an oil you want to use in there for the rest of its life. Engines wear differently with different oils, and the worst thing you can do is keep changing the brand of oil you use. And with many European engines, even changing the weight of synthetics around (summer or winter) can have the same effect over time. Pick an oil from the list, always stick with the list, and then stick with that oil. Forever. So pick a good one. hehe

The main consideration, at least initially, as to which oil to use is not the 0W, 5W, 10W, or whatever number, or the API classification, it's the "BM Sheet" spec number. For 2005 Sprinters, for example, fully synthetic oil that meets certain other specs carries the MB Sheet - 229.5 classification. Somewhere on the bottle of oil it should say something like "MB Approved 229.5". Also approved for models earlier than 2007 are 228.3, 228.5, several others.

For the 2007 Sprinter, I think the only approved oil is MB 229.51. In addition to things like the engines having EURO 4 or Bluetec exhaust particulate filters, the 229.51 oils are designed for longer oil change intervals.

Use the Maintenance ASSYST computer, it'll tell you when to change the oil. First oil change, it's not a bad idea to do it at 10,000 miles, then after that follow the ASSYST. You're probably gonna get 15,000 to 20,000 miles between oil changes after the initial change. (20,000 kilometers, according to Mercedes).

I change the just the oil filter every 5000 miles, which extends my oil change intervals significantly.

Anyway, back to your original questions of what's best...
If it's on the list, it's best. They are interchangeable insofar as good, better and best. (That's not to say you can mix and match at an oil change, or use one brand at one oil change and then switch to another at the next oil change. You probably could, but it's not really advisable. Pick an oil and stick with it.)

Read this page carefully, especially the comments under each successive MB spec to see what the each spec is designed for. When you get to the bottom you'll really appreciate what the 229.51 spec means. Also pay attention to the listed oils that are [/i]not[/i] recommended. People who think "American" will be surprised.

http://www.whnet.com/4x4/oil.html

Pay little or no attention to the part where is says, "229.5 and 229.51 engine oils must be used with fleece oil filter when used with the Mercedes Maintenance System (MY2005+) in M112, M113, M272 and M273 engines. With FSS paper filters are fine," unless you have one of those engines (you don't) and you are using the Mercedes Maintenance System (you aren't). People read that and go all goofy trying to track down fleece filters. The Maintenance ASSYST Computer in the Sprinter makes all that moot.

Just use an oil on the list. (Incidentally, there are a few oils that were just added to the list as recently as last week.) The first AMSOIL that came out with the 229.5 spec (Mobile 1 0W-40 equivalent) had it on the bottle, but they, uhm, forgot to convince Mercedes to actually approve it first. Whoops. AMSOIL now has an actual approved 229.51 (for the 2007 Sprinters) that is true-blue and genuinely approved by Mercedes. So, on the list of 229.51 oils, you'll see both:

Amsoil European Car Formula 5W-40
Mobil 1 ESP Formula M 5W-40

Flip a coin. They're both best. But if I had to pick one over the other, I'd pick the one that the initial fill was done with, and/or the one that is mentioned by name (if, indeed, it is) in the 2007 Service Tech Manual.

On the other hand, if you're inclined to switch to Amsoil, which is a great oil, the first oil change is the perfect time to do it. Both oils will give superior protection and lubrication. The only questions, really, are which costs more, and will the more expensive one give you an increase in the oil change interval sufficient to warrant the added cost? I'm a huge proponent of regular filter changes between oil changes. I went to great pains (and expense) to once and for all prove it one way or the other (as well as to very the validity of the reliability of the ASSYST Computer). I change filters every 5000 miles, and as a result I get about 17,500 miles between oil changes versus 12,500 when not changing filters between the oil changes. That's an extra 5000 miles that cannot easily be dismissed. Will Amsoil give me even more miles between oil changes? I don't know, and I'm not likely to find out as I've picked my oil and I'm stickin' with it.

But, if you plan on changing oil every 10,000 like clockwork, no exceptions, then it's a no-brainer - use the cheaper of the two.

The vast majority of engine wear that occurs between oil changes occur within the first 3000 miles after the oil has been changed. People who change their oil every 3000 miles just crack me up.

 

[greg334]

Just to throw a few things in,

The first thing is I would stick to Mobil one.

Why?

Availability!

Mobil one you can buy a lot of places but Amsoil I haven’t seen it at Wal-Mart or a lot of autoparts stores. Being stuck out in no where with a need for oil or trying to get an oil change on the road could be the problem.

The second thing is I haven’t confirmed this (don't have a euro owners manual for the thing) but I understand the oil change cycle for a euro-sprinter is 15K, Turtle is this right?

The third thing is, changing oil at 3000 miles is a waste of oil, even at 5000 mile oil change is a waste.

 

[Turtle]

Greg, the Euro Sprinters are actually set for 20,000 kilometers as the recommendation (12,427 miles), which is pretty much what you'll get when you change the oil by the ASSYST computer. If you have a service tech reprogram your computer for metric, when the ASSYST is reset it'll reset to 20,000k, instead of the metric equivalent of 16,000k for the 10,000 miles setting we have here. But again, regardless of it being reset to 10,000 miles, if you follow the ASSYST, it'll tell you to change the oil right around the 12,500 mile mark.

If you use a MB 229.5 oil (Mobil 1 SuperSyn European Car Formula 0W-40 in the USA, or Mobil 1 Turbodiesel 0W-40 in Europe, among several others), the recommended interval is 30,000k for pre-2007 Sprinters.

Obviously, 2007 models must stick to the 229.51 oils, which retains the 20,000k interval recommendation. (but you can change the filter regularly and extend that )

My uncle is a retired Army colonel, spent almost his entire career in Germany, and has decided to retire and remain there, other than visits here to home 3 or 4 times a year. I've learned a lot about the Sprinter from him. He's got three of them, between him, his wife, and one of his daughters (his other daughter refuses to give up her Beeeeemer for a Sprinter, I can't imagine why.). He's got 4 other cars, too. He's kind of a car nut. There is something quite surreal about driving the Autoban in a BMW while listening to Vivaldi or Mozart at 200 KPH.

 

[greg334]

Turtle,
Have you ever thought of;

using a cleanable reusable filter, like an SpinnerII cleanable spin on filter instead of the regular can filter?

using a bypass filter also?

You may have mentioned this but...

 

[Jefferson3000]

Gojack,

I did check out that site, and AMSOIL actually has a great reputation on that site. I've never used it, but I know people who do and they swear by it. It's obviously not just ANY oil.

However, I do agree with Greg about the availability factor, whether it is about Amsoil or even Redline. It is difficult to find in a pinch, and Mobil is just much more handy.


Drive Safe!

Jeff

Driver for 15 years
O/O for 13 years
OOIDA #829119

 

[highway star]

I heard that Delvac has the same magical ingredient as Lucas?

 

[greg334]

Hey Turtle, another one for you

What is the real difference in the Euro Oil and our oil?

 

[Turtle]

Greg, there are many fundamental differences between European and American motor oil. Mainly, European engines tend to be smaller, and American engines tend to be larger with much larger displacements, so the oils will be different. In a nutshell, though, American oils are designed for better fuel economy, because the car manufacturers are so focused on it, and European oils are designed more for engine protection, in part because the oil drain intervals are longer.

Lemme back up a little. I guess the primary difference that's apparent to you and me and the average Joe is something called "shear stability". The shear stability is a measure of how much viscosity an oil loses over time. And the amount of viscosity in an oil kind of affects everything else down the line.

Since oil viscosity is critical, many European specifications require greater shear stability properties than U.S. oils. Better shear stability means the oil won't thin out and lose viscosity. In the U.S., most oils are not shear stable at all so they lose viscosity during use, but has the added side benefit of promoting better fuel economy. However, lower viscosity sacrifices protection. Building more shear stable oils typically costs more to make so price becomes a factor. It can be done in the US, but if you take a given oil and give it more shear stability, then the very wide range of engines that oil can be used in starts to narrow rather quickly.

When it comes to passenger car and truck motor oil, the U.S. system has one specification with multiple viscosity grades, almost all of them being backwards compatible (generally, the same oil that you use in your 2005 Camry can also be used in your 1968 'Stang). They also have separate specifications for gas and diesel engines. The ACEA system in Europe currently has seven light duty oil specifications that can be used for both gas and diesel engines. The individual vehicle manufacturer then selects one of the specifications then adds their own requirements for this or that specific engine, which are usually very different from the baseline specs. It's them up to the oil manufacturers to comply with the OEM's specs.

So, in America, they engineer oils to a wide range of specs, and the manufacturers build an engine that can use the oil that's already out there, more or less. In Europe, the oils are designed to meet the vehicle manufacturer specs, which are very stringent, with very being an understatement (which is why a non-approved oil additive, like Lucas, can just kill a European car or truck light duty engine). The European ACEA approval represents just the baseline entry level for the vehicle manufacturers. The market is very segmented and there is no push for backward compatibility, and as a result there is this massive list (always stick to the list!) of approved products for specific engines that do not ever get superseded or replaced.

Unlike in the US, there is no formal motor oil licensing body in Europe. To gain approval for use in Europe, the oil must be approved by the automobile manufacturer. Fini. If approved, the oil manufacturer is sent a letter of approval and the oil is put on the approved list. Once the manufacturer approves it, formal licensing is redundant, 'cause the only thing that matters is whether or not your OEM says it's good to go.

As you can imagine, the price of European oils is substantially higher than is oil in America (2,3 even 4 times what we pay here. Imagine $20 a quart. Yikes!). In Europe, an oil change can cost hundreds. You don't see very many Quick/Jiffy/Fast Lube places over there, either. With the oil drain intervals being anywhere from 25,000 to 50,000 kilometers (15,000-30,000 miles), and with each OEM having uber-specific requirements for its vehicles, those who do not change the oil themselves usually go to the dealer and have it done. Some service stations do oil changes, but they are generally more expensive than a dealer, because of the near-prohibitive costs involved in carrying a massive list of approved oils for any and all cars, whereas the dealer is gonna carry the oils for the vehicles they sell, and little else.

When I first got my Sprinter I was thinkin' like an American. I was all ready to begin using Lucas after a certain number of miles (because that's what you do with a diesel engine, right? duh!), and was fully prepared to use significantly cheaper dino oil (Rotella T, though, as it's on The List) instead of the recommended synthetic oil, even though mine had synthetic as the initial fill, and/or at the very least use a 5W or 10W instead of that thin, watery 0W stuff.

I was a little taken aback when my mechanic friend, the one who has the service contract for UPS and FedEx Sprinters, who is also a huge Lucas proponent, as well as being an Amsoil dealer, informed me that I should not use any oil additive in there, and I should not vary from the oil that's currently in the engine in any way, shape or form, unless I was prepared to switch to a different oil and stick with it forever. And because of how much I travel, and the real possibility of not finding Amsoil (or whatever) when I needed it, he recommended against changing brands and types of oil at all. Hence the beginning of my education, where I sat my self-assured and oh, so superior knowledge aside, and began to learn how to think differently. It's been quite an education.

So, for those of us driving Sprinters, or any other light duty European car or truck, it's critical that we know the basic differences between Euro and American oils, and why we have to think differently when it comes to servicing them.



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Hey! Sit down. The bell doesn't dismiss you. You are dismissed when I say you're dismissed.

OK, you're dismissed.

Oh, oh, and there will be a test on Monday!

Hey, hey,[font size=4] hey! Don't forgetttt.... Test on Mon[/font size=4]nnddaaayyy!

[font color="blue"]
hrmph! Kids!

 

[Turtle]

Greg, I forgot to answer about the Spinner II or the bypass filter. Whoops.

I considered it, and did quite a bit of research. One thing a bypass filter does is remove the microscopic particles of engine wear. The vast majority of metal loss with the Sprinter's aluminum engine happens within the first 10,000 miles, before that first oil change. Subsequent oil changes found dramatically less metal under oil analysis, to the point where when about 50,000 miles is reached, little additional metal is gonna be lost. For that reason, the benefits of a bypass filter are lessened as time goes on. If you're going to install a bypass into a Sprinter, it's best to do it the day you get the van.

That first oil analysis I had done, I freaked. I didn't have a few metal particles in my oil, I had a few drops of oil in my metal. But the lab said that's the norm with these MB aluminum engines, and that the metal count would dramatically drop with each oil change. It did. Second oil change showed less than a quarter of the amount of metal, and it went down from there with each change. The last analysis showed, essentially, no metal at all. Some, but certainly well under what was the norm for diesel engines.

Also, there are some issues with mounting the bypass filter, because of where the Sprinter's full flow filter is located. It sits on top of the engine, more or less. A single bypass filter can be installed, but it's a kind of a workaround kludge, and still can present a problem when trying to service other parts of the engine. On the MB 2.7 engine, there simply isn't room to mount a dual filter system. And as easy as the oil is to change, last thing I want to do is to mount a dual filter system on the frame under the van someplace.

The standard Sprinter filter has a bypass compartment inside, anyway, which according to oil analysis does a pretty decent job of removing what metal particles are still there. For those who want to mess with it, there is a MB fleece filter that is a hard coated fleece that is literally a bypass filter and regular filter in one, but it's expensive and not necessary with Sprinters (might be necessary with the 07 models, I'm not sure).

The standard filter doesn't remove a whole lot of soot, though. It tries, but there's only so much it can handle. A bypass filter will definitely help with that. When I change filters at 5000 miles it's loaded with soot and the oil looks more like crude oil than motor oil. But the analysis says it's fine. That last analysis I had done at 17,5000 had a soot content of about 1%, and anything up to 5% is fine, even 6%, really. Anything above 6% and it's coal tar sludge.

I know that with the right filtration, you can use synthetics for a long, long time between oil changes. But that may or may not be the case with the very thin synthetics, like the 0W 40. Acidity and thermal pressure, along with combustion by products, will break down a synthetic, and with the 0W-40 being so thin, you won't be adding that much replacement top off oil when changing the bypass filter, so you won't really be adding back in that much of the additives that are breaking down. (0W weight oil is what they use in American cars as a crankcase flush, and they do not recommend running the engine more than 15 minutes with 0W oil in it.) That Sprinter tech friend of mine who does the UPS and FedEx Sprinters is also an Amsoil dealer. He's found that even with an Amsoil bypass filtration system installed, and using Amsoil or Mobile 1 0W-40, that the ASSYST (and oil analysis) usually indicates an oil change right around 25,000 miles or so.

Soot is one of the major contributors to a loss of electro-conductivity, so you'd think that if the bypass filter takes out all the soot that that alone would dramatically increase the oil change interval. But it doesn't, at least not with the thin 229.5 MB sheet oils. It only adds roughly 7,000-10,000 miles. That's nothing to scoff at, but is it worth the hassle and cost of a bypass filter? The fact that the Sprinter MB 2.7 engine is a turbo probably has something to do with it, as well, since there is no much more heat and pressure that the oil must deal with. Either from the heat, pressure or the soot, something is breaking down the additives faster than the bypass filter can eliminate it from happening.

Incidentally, my brother pulls a flatbed and has been using a bypass filter for I dunno how long. Years, decades, centuries. He runs about 150,000 miles between full oil changes. Said he could go longer, but doesn't want to chance it much beyond that. He just got a new truck, too, a Peterbilt. A 389, I think, or something like that. Has a bypass filter factory installed.

I'm getting 17,500 miles just by changing the oil filter at 5000 miles now. With a bypass filter, I'd still have to change the regular filter at 5000 miles (or certainly every 10,000, anyway), plus the change bypass filter every 3000 miles or so. With gasoline engines you can probably get away with changing the bypass filter every 25,000 miles or so, and with and heavy non-turbo diesels, you can probably get away with changing it every 10,000 miles, anyway, but with a turbo diesel they recommend every 2000-3000 miles.

So, that was the process. For the Sprinter, all things considered, the additional cost and hassle of a bypass filter just didn't seem like a good fit. At lease for me. It just seemed like the added cost wouldn't pay off until the van was about 5 or 6 years old, and by then I'll probably be ready for a new one, anyway.

 

[terryandrene]

Turtle:

Thanks for the oils seminar. Very enlightening and useful info for all, particularly for the Sprinter owners.

 

[OntarioVanMan]

That goes with what I've been telling people out here all along in the TS's Its a Mercedes not a N.American deisel, you have to treat it different. I think thats why we are seeing the premature failure of some Sprinters...Between bad driving habits and poor PM.

 

[Turtle]

Just 2 days in beautiful downtown Houston (well, the Flying J east of town) ago I ran into another Sprinter owner who was proudly boasting about his rigid PM schedule. He changes the oil every 3000-5000 miles, and uses only SuperTech synthetic motor oil from Wal Mart. It's about $12 for a 5-quart jug. He was quite pleased with himself that he managed to figure out how to change his oil and filter more often for less money. He reasoned that while it's cheap oil, he changes it often enough that it doesn't matter, and since he changes it so often, it's actually much better for the engine because the oil is always fresh.

"It's the same oil as Mobile 1. It's made by Quaker State [which is wrong, actually]. Synthetic oil is synthetic oil. Everything else is marketing hype."

So simple a caveman can do it.

Ugh

 

[Packmule]

Wow....wish I had known that a long time ago. Look at all the money I could have saved and could have changed my oil more often!!!
Makes me want to buy a bigger truck to haul "B" freight in.

Lubrication 101....The rest of the story......Haa!!!!

Danny

 

[greg334]

OVM, you're funny.

"That goes with what I've been telling people out here all along in the TS's Its a Mercedes not a N.American deisel, you have to treat it different. I think thats why we are seeing the premature failure of some Sprinters...Between bad driving habits and poor PM."

A Mercedes a different engine?

When I had my training in Englewood, NJ the tech told all of us the Mercedes is not any different than a Cummins or Cat and he was right. After servicing about a hundred of MB finest oil engines, I have to agree with you that bad driving habits and poor PM will kill an MB before a gasser but as long as you just do the basic three, the engine will run forever. I did the basic three on a 1958 190D that had over 275K on it before the seals were broken to adjust the valves. The car was a rag but it was in top notch mechanical condition.

Oh as for sprinter failures I put some blame on D-C for their very poor training of their mechanics. Brother-in-law just got trained by D-C and from what he told me it was so far less in the training I got 25 years ago.

 

[OntarioVanMan]

Greg..ok I concede a diesel is a diesel...

But as for DC's fault I'd be hard pressed to blame them for a failure as I have only been in a dealer 3x's in almost 200,000 miles...I'd have to shoulder most of the blame...
So whats the 3 main items again?
Oil filter, oil change, fuel filter, turbo air filter...wait thats 4...

 

[greg334]

OVM,
Yep,
3 times in 200K, thats good.

My point is that if you get service from a D-C dealer, there is a chance that you may not get the thing fixed at all but go through what I went though. I have always had a distrust for dealer's mechanics since I owned an auto parts store.

The basic 3? You must be kidding me? just messing with you.

Air Oil and Fuel filters (of course you change the oil with the oil filter).

Back then filters were cheap and accessible, and the sad thing is that outside of the dependability that is needed for this work we do, a lot of those engines I worked on had easily accumulated 150K to 200K engines and many engines today just barely make that - PM is important.

 

[raynchk]

Thanks for all the replies. Turtle, your information on European engines was great! I decided to go ahead and use the Mobil 1 -- had the service done at the dealer in Fort Myers/Cape Coral FL. They put in 5W-30, "No Ash", saying that's the latest in the service bulletins from Dodge. I would've preferred the 0W-40, but they didn't have it.

 

[Turtle]

I haven't really been keeping up with the MY 2007's and the various requirements, but I'm pretty sure that the no ash 5W-40 is a 229.51 oil, which the 2007's require, and I don't think they have a 0W-40 oil that's 229.51, yet, at least not one that's available in the US. I think the no ash 5W-40 is the "Mobile 1 ESP Formula M 5W-40" oil.

I'm actually making a delivery to the Sprinter plant in SC in the morning, so I'll find out for sure.