B-load Blues...

[Tennesseahawk]

Hearing tiredofsittin, and numerous others, complain on how bad it's been for vans lately, got me thinking. I was gonna just post it in the "How Dependant is Expediting" thread, but I decided to start a new one just on this topic.

Tired, you've been having a bad streak lately. It doesn't help that you're in a van, cause the industry is saturated with them. I don't know many on here who have vans, but I have an idea looking at the archives as to why it's saturated.

First of all, there are too many ppl who have cdls, but choose to drive a van cause of the ease. No logs, no weigh stations, little DOT interference. Well... you got what you wanted, but now you want those like you to stop taking your loads. Pity.

Second are retirees wanting to make a little extra money. As this is a touchy subject, I'm bound to get criticism for saying so. Those who need the money, fine. Those who have money and are doing so because they're bored, shame on you. You're taking jobs from those who need to make a living. And that goes with more areas than just expediting. You want something to do and travel? Get a motorhome.

Vans are just bad to get into right now, period. It only got worse when sprinters were introduced. Nearly everyone on here tries to convince a newbie not to get into vans or sprinters, but you know how that goes. Of course, most think there's a living to be made in a van. There is... IF you play your cards right. However, better cards are played by paying $10k to get a seat at the World Series of Poker tournament. That's just my opinion.

Tired, and all those who feel they aren't making a living driving a van... start taking a look at what you're doing, cause obviously it's not working. Reevaluate your situation and come up with ideas that would make more money. If you have a cdl, think about moving up on the food chain. There are tons of D&E loads out there. If you don't have a cdl, think about getting one. If you don't think you're suited for expediting, don't stay in it. And if you're a jerk (I'm not pointing fingers, but they know who they are), change your attitude! Dispatchers remember jerks, and are as likely to overlook them than not.

That's my two cents. Complaints can be made at the front desk. ;-)

 

[geo]

guess i will add to fire,
i have had a cdl sents i was 21 year's old , have drove from the time i could reach the brake and gas pedtal's on my grandfather ford tractor one of those small ford's ,love trucks and boats sents i couldn't have a boat settle for a truck, drove in navy as much as i could as i didn't like sitting in a office like the open road
and as the higher you advance in navy , things you like to do you now aren't able to do
so when i retired in 89 tried two 8-4 job's they were boring
it's not your job or not in contract you can't do that
so roberts express was at a job fair in newport news va
and they were looking for trucks had a cdl so bought a truck in 92 and been at it ever since
being retired navy is still not that much money you still have to work
and for 20 years you were told when and how and where you would be
now i have a choice come go as i please

i ran the roads for 11 year's and roberts express / fedexcc now egl
i like what i do
it's kind of like this this life style is not for everyone and like navy some people should have never tried it and same for trucking
for people who think i'm taking a job away from someone because i'm retired military don't real care as i have always march to my own drum beat even in navy did

as my two grandfather's use to day if there is trouble look for the mcdonald or hogkinson behind it, and they said dam you related to both of us so guess you are always in trouble

 

[Tennesseahawk]

Now that's what I'm talkin about. My sis retired from the Marines after 22 years, and she still has to work. Military retirement doesn't pay squat. I totally understand where you're coming from. Also, you've been in this for almost as long as expediting itself. My beef is with those who have a substantial retirement, can easily live without another job, yet choose to work cause it's all they know or they're bored. To me, that's selfish. There comes a time when you're supposed to leave the workplace and let someone else come in. Believe me... when that day comes, I'll be kickin back and breathin the mountain air.

 

[tiredofsittn]

yeah im thinking of going local with a company i used to work for. driving a box truck for 500 hundred a week, home every weekend,maybe overnight 2 or 3 nights a week but they pay the hotel bill. good insurance their fuel, trying to get 750.over the last month thats about what i made weekly, 750, after fuel and food. had two breakdowns though, that hurt 500 hundred a pop.this is the busy season, i heard on the local news here in detroit that GM is going to work 24/7 to make up a lot of cars because they think delphi is going to strike. maybe its going to get better.

 

[TJ959]

Well I'm convinced that nothing in this business makes any sense. I was in a "D" truck for 2+ years and never seemed to be busy enough to justify the expense and hours invested. I moved to a Sprinter to lower my overhead and fixed expenses. Besides, I was tired of being micromanaged by uncle sam. At first I got almost no loads but then I changed carriers and things have been great.
Stop me here if I'm wrong but I think it's hard to make a living in a "D" truck if you drive single. So here's my theory. It's mostly in the company you choose. Some carriers prefer teams and aim their market strategy in that direction. Other companies prefer the big 18 wheelers at the expense of all the smaller trucks. Still, there are companies that load vans all day every day and the key to the whole thing is to get hooked up with the people that do what you do. I know that I'm over simplifying and it's hard to find the sweet spot but when it works it works.

 

[Tennesseahawk]

Tom, you're dead on about it being which company you go with. And yes, single D units have a rougher time getting loaded than teams in most companies. It's taken me almost 7 years to get where I finally understand the business... notice I didn't say companies. You can do well with most companies, and not necessarily know the business. I have been at my most profitable in this last month than I've been since I started. Granted, I've had better weeks as a team, but the other driver doesn't count in MY profit.

Now downgrading to a van isn't something I'd recommend to anyone, yet it worked for you. If you're making more profit in a van than in a D, more power to ya... you did something right. I wouldn't equate that to laziness that some van drivers are guilty of. In essence, t/t drivers could say the same thing about straight trucks. We're lazy cause we choose not to run with the big dogs. Personally for me, it's a matter of safety. Because otherwise, there's a ton more money to be made driving a big truck. That's not to say there's no money to be made in Ds, cause there's plenty... just gotta know how to do it.

I wrote this post to get ppl who are driving vans, or thinking of doing so, to think. Are they in this for the right reasons? Could they do things differently to actually succeed, whether it be move into a truck or work into another niche as Tom has doneand tiredofsittin is planning? Ppl have a natural tendency to follow the money... especially easy money. Well... unless you're extremely lucky, know someone, or know the business as well as the veterans, vans are no longer easy money.

I have no experience with vans, and have no intention of getting into that area. I wouldn't mind if Terry and some van vets chimed in as to their thoughts.

 

[truckerbuddy]

I am in a sprinter doing 1700 to 2500 miles a week if I stay out M-F
I do not work many weekends. I think that is busy and I have been doing these numbers for 2 years now. I was in a D unit before and I was not getting many loads except small ones because I was a single driver and could not take the long runs because of D.O.T laws. but I do something i bet most people dom't do if I sit more then 8 hours I move my van into a spot that needs a van so i deadhead 100-200 miles but then I am loaded and off again. I think most van drivers sit untel loaded if your that type of driver you will be sitting. I look at myself as a freight ambulance (I go were i am needed) so I spend a bit more in fuel to do so and I put a few more miles on my van but I am loaded everyday and I am having some fun too. I dont allways have to move my van because i have been luckey because the company I work for has a very good van/sprinter business.

truck 2884
owner/opp 5 years

 

[dragonrider]

Well the retired military,etc don't bother me.The retired auto workers,big union etc people,who get big money[more then i make a year] ,do PO me.I have been ask many times by workers making $25+ a hour about my work,saying how they can get a van cheap cause they will retire for a big 3 want to go into this to make fishing[hunting,beer etc] money.I tell them they will do better driving motor homes to dealers .Tell them how much more friendly the business is.
It also relates to what has been said before,Quit hauling 3000 lbs in vans!!!!!! It is dangerous,and stupid to risk peoples lives out there ,I still see all kinds of vans,"hunting racoons in trees" with there headlights going down the road at 70 mph.
Last yes the little c is still around,trying to pay it off and then going to a C unit for various resons

 

[tiredofsittn]

yeah your right about the weight thing. i went to a company website i was looking into and it said the vans in their fleet could haul upto 4000 lbs, i clicked off. i have been having trouble with my company doing that lately, stuffed in like sardines.i asked them why i wanted to do that for the same pay as a 1 or 2 pallet load 2000 lbs. and under. i told them no more for me. i have been looking into a route with frito lay, its bad when you can make more hauling potatoe chips than auto expedited freight.

 

[Broompilot]

Your all right about the company you choose that is totaly the secret of success or failure in this business... But a Van is gona utlimatley fail in my opinion ask the experienced drivers here (would you hop in one now starting over?) I know the answer and glad I asked before getting into this..

A D unit is the only money maker other than an E unit... Their I said it I feel for all of you Van operators and I do not understand the C units philsophy, but if they are making it than great. I remembered how infuriated the last carrier made me when they threatened me to classifly my D as a C as if only one out of every fifty loads was acutally over 12K but that was their rule. Mean time they told me it was totaly OK to purcahse a KW speced out like you all know as being a class D.

As for making a living you better have a great company behind you and the only two I know of accepting newbees or close to are Panther and Express One. Others you better have expierence elsewsher.

The reason there is no $ in vans is according to one great source on this Site who has been driving a Van longer than almost anyone in this industry is that many of you have the mind set to bid loads yourself thus shooting the golden goose before she lays the egg. If your guilty of this how much less are bidding loads below your current carrier??? If you did bid higher chances are youd get it anyway leaving $ on the table TERRIBLE BUSINESS PEOPLE...

I am called previous to any load offer to see if I am intrested, I am noticing more and more I am not getting an imm. return call as someone has underbid it and my company has one of the best reputations in the industry but $ is $ and free is free so go for it thats why vans are going under and it will only trickle up but I can and will wait until all of you fly by nighters underbidders are gone.

My two cents thank you for you time... Personally one of sick of seeing the posts regarding bidding loads myself....... Good luck and good riddence.... your time is limited as far as your profits will take you......

 

[tiredofsittn]

well i run for one of the cheapest outfits out here, i thought they would under bid everyone and get me a ton of miles. at first it was really good but now theyre saying theyre getting underbid, i think they are bidding the same if not more than everyone else and just underpaying us.

 

[Tennesseahawk]

That's very possible, tired. Brokers are notorious for being greedy (a good number of them anyways). But who bids on the loads for the companies? Is it dispatcher? If so, why would they bid the same in order to make more profit? Could they be getting a commission as well?

Broom, you're right about the jerks who undercut legit paying bids. I've bid relatively low to get out of an area, and the customer found it cheaper somewhere else? Sometimes it makes me wonder. Is someone underbidding, or is the broker trying to make more off my low bid? Broom... don't let it upset you. If I've been in NC for a couple days, and I get an offer going to within 200 mi of home, I guarantee I'm getting the load instead of you. You have to remember... load bids are sometimes just to get back into the zone. Only reason I got out of SC when I did was cause the load took every bit of my 28' box. Otherwise, I would've bid super low on Friday to get to OH, or browsed getloaded.

 

[RobA]

Are you straying from the "B Load Blues" theme of this thread?
I believe that the so called unbids are probably just going on LTL common carrier instead of by "B".
Have you ever looked at Yellow's rate structure?
They were advertising moving a set of doubles over certain lanes for a buck per mile. They would've moved a single pup for 60 cents per mile!
They can afford to take a low price on a reposition. Their regular rates are full of deep discounts; 50 % and 60% off the rate sheet if a shipper tenders enough freight.
Then there is the "Oh, it isn't THAT much of a rush anymore" syndrome.
Why ship it direct in a B van if no one is going to pay for the premium price?
The "bean-counters" (who are the people who truly run a company) will question too many higher priced shipments.
There are lots of reasons that loads fall through.


>That's very possible, tired. Brokers are notorious for being
>greedy (a good number of them anyways). But who bids on the
>loads for the companies? Is it dispatcher? If so, why would
>they bid the same in order to make more profit? Could they
>be getting a commission as well?
>
>Broom, you're right about the jerks who undercut legit
>paying bids. I've bid relatively low to get out of an area,
>and the customer found it cheaper somewhere else? Sometimes
>it makes me wonder. Is someone underbidding, or is the
>broker trying to make more off my low bid? Broom... don't
>let it upset you. If I've been in NC for a couple days, and
>I get an offer going to within 200 mi of home, I guarantee
>I'm getting the load instead of you. You have to remember...
>load bids are sometimes just to get back into the zone. Only
>reason I got out of SC when I did was cause the load took
>every bit of my 28' box. Otherwise, I would've bid super low
>on Friday to get to OH, or browsed getloaded.

 

[DannyD]

>Second are retirees wanting to make a little extra money. As
>this is a touchy subject, I'm bound to get criticism for
>saying so. Those who need the money, fine. Those who have
>money and are doing so because they're bored, shame on you.
>You're taking jobs from those who need to make a living. And
>that goes with more areas than just expediting. You want
>something to do and travel? Get a motorhome.


I've gotta disagree w/ ya on this one. If someone can add value, in this case by delivering freight, they should do it. A lot of retirees are bored out of their minds & if they can find something to do that makes them feel like a productive member of society I'm all for it.

>
>Vans are just bad to get into right now, period. It only got
>worse when sprinters were introduced. Nearly everyone on
>here tries to convince a newbie not to get into vans or
>sprinters, but you know how that goes. Of course, most think
>there's a living to be made in a van. There is... IF you
>play your cards right. However, better cards are played by
>paying $10k to get a seat at the World Series of Poker
>tournament. That's just my opinion.
>
>Tired, and all those who feel they aren't making a living
>driving a van... start taking a look at what you're doing,
>cause obviously it's not working. Reevaluate your situation
>and come up with ideas that would make more money. If you
>have a cdl, think about moving up on the food chain. There
>are tons of D&E loads out there. If you don't have a cdl,
>think about getting one. If you don't think you're suited
>for expediting, don't stay in it. And if you're a jerk (I'm
>not pointing fingers, but they know who they are), change
>your attitude! Dispatchers remember jerks, and are as likely
>to overlook them than not.

This part I agree on. You really have to be careful in your choices if you're going to try & make it on a van's income. I had a talk w/ a friend of mine not to long ago. I'm current on all my payments & my friend is struggling to make ends meet. The thing is, we make about the same amount of money. He's got a wife & a kid to support though. In the same sense I don't think a van income can support an owner & a hired driver I also think it would be tough to support an owner/operator & a family.

 

[TJ959]

I still think a single driver has a better chance making a living in a Sprinter than in a "D" truck. At least in my experience, I would sit empty forever while the team trucks got loaded or I'd be offered team loads that I could'nt possibly run legally. (yup I did take a few of those but I should'nt have) There's nothing more demoralizing than sitting in a truck stop in a good area and watching everyone else get loaded. I've been in a Sprinter for about 2 months and I've had more paid miles than I ever had before. This may be a fluke or my luck has changed but so far it's working for me. I'm not making a whole bunch of money but I'm busy and making ends meet.

 

[Tennesseahawk]

Tom, didn't you run solo with Panther? If so, then you have your answer why. While some solos do well with them, most just aren't getting the miles. If you're on with the right company, you can make a killing. I've just finished my best 9 day stretch solo in my career, and my second or third overall. So the freight is out there.

Rob, I thought the same thing about getting off topic. But as we're discussing what affects getting a van loaded, in essence, all the talk about load rates and brokers and such does tie into the topic.

About using expediting as a hobby for "fishing money" as one stated... I don't think our marketplace is set up for hobbyists. That's what 401ks were meant for. I'm not saying they CAN'T do it... I'm just saying it's bad taste to take the place of younger ppl trying to make a living. So, essentially, these ppl are taking jobs away from those who need them.

 

[RichM]

Hawk I have to disagree with you about the retirees that have some bucks but are still expediting in vans.
Lets say that a retiree quit and parked his/her van. Well in 99% of the cases the Compnay will just put another van on and not shrink their fleet. So the fleet size stays the same meaning the load or lack of loads stays the same.

Now in many instances the retiree driver will take more time off or go sightseeing which means more load opportunities for the remainder of the fleet that is in service. To my way of thinking that is an advantage to the contractor/driver that is working for the revenue needed.The fewer trucks in service the greater the opportunity for a load.

There are also retirees driving C and D units (wish I was one of them lol). When they do the tourist thing it means more oporrtunities for me.

 

[greg334]

OK I am going to open my big mouth and do some venting here.

After reading everything in this thread, sitting on my third day without freight and having a conversation with my dispatcher that really got me pissed off for the second time this week, I have to add something.

At this moment I am actually making a change to the direction my business is going in and may talk about that another time if I get permission to talk about it. For now I am a van owner/operator and a business owner. One fact of life is I am competing with every van driver out there, including the part time retired person who has the money that I don’t. I am also competing with my own company but that is another story.

Like I said I am in business for myself. I, like all of you, have bills to pay, a family to support and goals I want to meet. You and any company I do/will/may work for will not take me by the hand and show me the way to the yellow brick road. I and I alone will have to do this and it takes a lot of work. If I have to bid on a load under what you may consider an unreasonable bid to move my truck at my cost, so what. If you think I am a bad businessman because I bid at my cost, so what. I am willing to take the loss to make money later on. Right now I don’t have the access or means but believe me I would not be sitting here if I did.

I always simplified things in my post and made it look like I know a lot of stuff, well I do know a lot of stuff but not about the expediting world; I am still learning a lot. I do know how to ask questions and know how to learn. While I was off, I took the time to learn what others should, how these customers think and why. I went to the BIG TWO and talked to people I know who introduced me to other decision makers. I won’t say much about what I learned and will share the good stuff with a select few but you know some of the companies that claim to have great reputations actually are lucky to get any business from these companies.

Companies like GM and Ford are looking for ways to save money; they know that shipping cost is part of business and that they making decisions right now in order to survive and we must follow their changes. One person said that she believes that many of these large expediting companies will not exist in the next few years simply because they have this attitude that “they must be like GM to do business with GM†and this business model is the wrong business model to have. She also said that it is funny that the smaller companies and even fleet owners are willing to work one on one to find solutions to save money but bigger companies are too lost in their bottom line to care.

I also went to a couple load boards and saw the freight, saw the bids and saw a few companies performance. This proves to me that the freight is there, which is opposite from what I keep hearing.

So that is all I have to say about this, back to watching my phone for a load.

Come on, ring.....please...

 

[Broompilot]

Not to get off of the subject. But T-Hawk N.C. is not a dead zone so discounting to get home??? This is what is killing the goose, upset no because my company always finds me loads out of here its a pretty hot freight lane.

We all have our business's to run, my past expierence with my last company showed me to never give it away. As past expirence tought me it always comes back to bite you the customer who wants it cheap than usually wanted more for less where as a well profitable co. respected my efforts and negioated in good faith for a good deal for both of us and let me in on the process. Now this aint cleaning but the bottom line in any business is profit, and the more people give it away the less you will have at Christmas time.

Sometimes its better to sit than to run for free..... or just payin my costs as OOIDA says SAY NO TO CHEAP FREIGHT... what a great philsophy.

 

[Tennesseahawk]

Having talked to you on the phone, you understand my philosophy. What I meant was that after sitting in NC (or anywhere else) for a few days, I will lower my asking price. That by no way means cheap freight. All I'm doing is slightly reducing my profit, not taking a loss for fuel OR time. I'm not big on LTLs, however they have their place... as a suppliment to an expedite load, or at least 2 put on my truck to get me back into the freight zone. One LTL won't cut it usually.

Getting back on topic, I think putting one LTL on a van is suicide. Usually they don't pay much more than .25/mi for one or two skids. One load on a straight truck may bring .80/mi, but in the end is it worth it? With luck, a 24' straight could get two on going the same direction. Only then would the "cheap freight" be worth it. LTLs can have too many things go wrong, which can make you miss expedite loads on the other end. You'll wish you had deadheaded.