A Different System

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
This is the Canada Pension Plan as you can with a little tinkering it can work. Many years ago it was like your SS and losing ground, but with a little work as you can see it self sustaining and making money with it's investments.
So in escense it is a social program in a capitolist market.

TORONTO, ON (May 22, 2008): The CPP Fund ended the fiscal 2008 year on March 31, 2008 at $122.7 billion, an increase of $6.1 billion from $116.6 billion at the close of the previous year.

Four-year Results
The CPP Investment Board reflects its long investment horizon by regularly reporting rolling four-year performance. The four-year annualized investment rate of return through March 31, 2008 was 9.0 per cent, which has added a cumulative $32.2 billion of assets to the CPP Fund and was well above the return required to sustain the Canada Pension Plan at its current contribution rate. The CPP Fund earned 12.9 per cent in fiscal 2007, 15.5 per cent in fiscal 2006 and 8.5 per cent in 2005.

To add employment insurance figures:

EI surpluses of several billion dollars per year, which were added to general government revenue. The cumulative EI surplus stood at $54.4 billion at March 31, 2007, about three times as high as necessary.

In addition The Canadian Constitution

Because of provincial powers, Canada does not have - and arguably cannot have - a national health care system.

The Constitution Act does give potential powers over elements of health care to the federal government through various clauses (e.g., quarantine),
 
Last edited:

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
Over 80 views and not one comment? Guess it's hard to understand why one works and the other is a disaster. I've got a theory...it's called commitment.

Ya see the US is not commited to any program because of the split between the tradtionalists...and the new generation. So what happens is you have a hodge podge mixed up attempt at these programs...

As you can see from the first post the top 2 are NOW actually self supporting and both in HUGE surpluses and add to government coffers...so much so that the federal sales tax...(GST) has been lowered from 7% to 5 % in the last 2 years...also Employment ins. contributions have been lowered for both employee and employer...

The health care well at least in Ontario it's to say the least in transition...but I am sure over the years it'll improve again...since health care is a provincial responsibilty depending on thier economy each will improve at a different rate...unlike Alberta that is covered by the profits of oil sales.

What I'd like to see down here for now is an insurance carrier have a list of services and let ME pick what I need and they give me a price on those services...instead of fixed packages that I don't feel that I want. You know customer service?
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
Over 80 views and not one comment? Guess it's hard to understand why one works and the other is a disaster. I've got a theory...it's called commitment.

I don’t agree. Commitment on the part of the government means that the person has no say in the treatment, the type of treatment or when they receive it.

I heard from my relatives for years how great the system is, until my cousin was diagnose with a brain tumor. He didn’t even bother to seek treatment, he just died and he explained that in Canada because of his age (70’s) and the limits they have, he would end up dying anyway. He worked in the health care industry there and is one of three who died from cancer over there. Just recently his daughter went through colon cancer treatment and will be operated on this week; she was on a waiting list for diagnostic procedures. She ended up coming here and seeing the same doc that treated my mother with her cancer and he made it clear that if Canada would get off their a** and start allowing scans on demand (take your pick of which letters to put in front of the word) than most of these things would be caught early. Instead, the lady is going to be operated on this week here in the states and will pay for the commitment by having most of her colon removed.

Ya see the US is not commited to any program because of the split between the tradtionalists...and the new generation. So what happens is you have a hodge podge mixed up attempt at these programs...

No the US should not be committed to any program, once a commitment takes place, then the controls are put in place to ensure that the power sits with the government and not the people. With these controls, the people who actually work for supporting the system will be the ones who get to use it the least because of their commitment to maintain their life style and the actual need to support their family.

Unless you are completely clueless, there is no real hodgepodge of anything.

Most of the complaints are from people who don’t care to take some responsibility for their health by being involved with it. It is not even a matter of trust, but of laziness on tier part, they want to see some super government to come in and solve all their problems so they can sit on their fat a** and eat themselves to death. I seen it a lot when I worked with hospitals, I seen it a lot when I would go to the docs, people didn’t care to ask questions but expected top drawer service with crappy insurance and not caring if they got over charged.

The health care well at least in Ontario it's to say the least in transition...but I am sure over the years it'll improve again...since health care is a provincial responsibilty depending on thier economy each will improve at a different rate...unlike Alberta that is covered by the profits of oil sales.


The problem with this is one word – Michigan. We as a state can not possibly provide state wide services without a complete overhaul of not only the insurance industry, the medical industry but also the state and federal level. The fact that the state already provides too much of unaccountable services to many who don’t need it, shows the lack of management skills in government alone and YOU want to hand them a blank check?

What I'd like to see down here for now is an insurance carrier have a list of services and let ME pick what I need and they give me a price on those services...instead of fixed packages that I don't feel that I want. You know customer service?

You know Ken the problem is government with mandates from the state. Many insurance companies have to deal with some mandates because they have state contracts.

If you want choices, it has to happen at the state level first, not the federal level. At the federal level, changing the tax system will help a lot, replacing the present system with something like the Fair Tax will giveback the control to the people with money and is a great start.

But the bigger problem really is the cost for some stuff. For example, my wife sees a lot of the procedures that are paid out by insurance companies, one such procedure is laser surgery. At $5000 a crack, there are a number of insurance companies who will pay for Tattoo removal at $5000 for EACH tattoo. She ran into one that she reviewed where a 17 year old had 5 of them removed – a total of $27,000 was billed to the insurance company and they paid it. I use the sex change operations and treatments, which I some insurance companies will pay for but it comes back to us, the people who pay the premiums, to foot the bill.

With any government controls that will have to be put into place, the cheaper procedures will be kept and the more expensive ones, like some highly costly cancer treatments, will be limited. They do this in England and in other parts of the EU where overall accountability falls on the patent through price and frequency controls. A known fact is Kidney Dialyses, and the age of the patient in England. They don’t give Dialyses to people in their late 60’s or 70’s. The same goes for the Netherlands where they can legally euthanize a patent who can not recover from certain problems and they are of an advanced age.

ALSO one last thing, the biggest problem with Medicare outside of having the monies pay for Medicaid is the fact that at that magic age, you have to take it as a primary insurance. If you can afford say BCBS as a primary instead, why not have BCBS as a primary?

OH and one last thing, Obama, the second coming of Christ guy has some ad out saying that McCain will completely eliminate all access to contraceptives to the public. Amazing the BS starts like this propaganda. Well this is one thing that many insurance companies pay for and so does Medicaid. I didn’t look into this yet but I would take a wild guess that McCain may want to put some controls on Medicaid payouts and get some more accountability into the system, not haul sales of any thing like this. I got to hand it to him about that part but since the Keating Five stuff, he has been a little more consistent on finance accountability issues.
 

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
Well the US and State governments better get busy and get this crap straightened out...Wanna go tit for tat? The horror stories of insurance company crap down here?

There's a heck ofa lot of Americans hot after healthcare whether you or the other 3 amigos want it... Everywhere I go person after person says wow you gave up the healthcare up there your nuts....I get it alot Greg*S*
 

Tennesseahawk

Veteran Expediter
Likewise, OVM, I hear a lot from Canadians about how their system sux! And to prove it, they come HERE for treatment.

Oh... and please don't call me an amigo. I'm not voting for McCainiac, and I'm not voting for Obamascamadingdong. I'm just an American, who's getting sick of Americans. How ppl can get so caught up in their own petty bs, and refuse to see the truth, is beyond me. So I'm just letting things happen as they will, vote my conscience, and live my life. My only hope is that we won't be totally socialist before I'm a millionaire, so we can escape.

I love my country! I fear my government! And I despise our ignorant citizens!
 

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
Likewise, OVM, I hear a lot from Canadians about how their system sux! And to prove it, they come HERE for treatment.

Oh... and please don't call me an amigo. I'm not voting for McCainiac, and I'm not voting for Obamascamadingdong. I'm just an American, who's getting sick of Americans. How ppl can get so caught up in their own petty bs, and refuse to see the truth, is beyond me. So I'm just letting things happen as they will, vote my conscience, and live my life. My only hope is that we won't be totally socialist before I'm a millionaire, so we can escape.

I love my country! I fear my government! And I despise our ignorant citizens!

No squabble there Hawk....

Even though I can't vote yet....I'd fit to be tied to vote for either one of them as it stands right now...Maybe the deciding factor will be who their running mates will be....

Wife and I were talking the other night about fantasy teams...heres mine...Lee Ioccoca and Colin Powell...same ticket
 
Last edited:

LDB

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
If Canada has a "social security" system that works it must mean the politicians are under the same system. That's what's wrong with ours. The politicians aren't required to use it.
 

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
If Canada has a "social security" system that works it must mean the politicians are under the same system. That's what's wrong with ours. The politicians aren't required to use it.

Leo...thats a twisted way of lookin at it...but your kinda correct...instead they get to collect BOTH ways!!! *LOL*
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
OVM
I thought that the dems were going to allow us the same access as they get in congress?
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
I honestly can't remember...wasn't that promise #1002 or maybe it was #2017?....my memories gone:p

Mine too. I don't want politicians promising things, too many dumb people fall for that gag and don't get it.

Civics lesson.....

I want politicians to step out of the way and let me do the work I need to as a citizen. I voted them into office to do a job, the representative is to represent me and my fellow citizens in my district, my senator is supposed to represent the state I lived in but they changed that so they represent no one but themselves.

I want my representative to help bring prosperity to my district and state in that order. I don't want them to look at what the president is doing in Iraq, japan or England. My representative is about me and my district, nothing else.

I want my senator to act on behalf of my state, not worry about what is going on in Iraq or how they can impeach our president for things he hasn't done.

If they don't care about me, the person who used my vote to let them have that job, I will not vote for them again.

Case in point - representative Dingle. He has been in office for 53 years, he has returned nothing to his district in the last two maybe three terms. The system was not intended for people like him to live their entire adult lives in the same seat. The system was about changing every two years.
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
OVM,
Today I got a copy of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. Pretty interesting read there.

The thing that I think you are missing with some of this is that the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms is a modernly defined version of our bill of rights and such is not limited to just an overview of the rights of the people but more defining as I would expect in a modern constitution style charter.

The distinct and important difference that I see is the Canadian Charter has the limitations and notwithstanding clauses within itself where the US constitution does not.

Now what I think it means and you may already know this, it allows the Canadian courts to interpret the rights more broadly within some limitations due to the limitations clause as a preemptive measure but I don’t see a mechanism to address violations outside of the limitations clause. What I mean is that in our system, there has to be a violation of the right to bring suit (for example the second amendment suit over the DC gun ban), where in the Canadian system, it looks like there does not have to be a violation of any sort to initiate it but on the other hand there is no real protection of fundamental rights due to the limits of the charter which may mean that if there was a freedom of religion issue, it may not be heard at all in the courts. (maybe I don’t remember my English law all that well?)

Make sense?

The thing I see as part of the problem when asking why the US does not do this or that, is the way we evolved differently but both have a common origin. This comes to the fact that the charter is detailed to answer to the people for things that the US bill of rights never have to. The assumption is being made that these governmental services exist for the people in Canada where in the US constitution they never exist in the first place but it allowed the people themselves to create and maintain the services for the good of all.

See what I am saying?

The other thing that I really think matters is Section Four –

4.(1) No House of Commons and no legislative assembly shall continue for longer than five years from the date fixed for the return of the writs at a general election of its members.
(2) In time of real or apprehended war, invasion or insurrection, a House of Commons may be continued by Parliament and a legislative assembly may be continued by the legislature beyond five years if such continuation is not opposed by the votes of more than one-third of the members of the House of Commons or the legislative assembly, as the case may be.
Now this is essentially term limits at its best and I wish we could have this here but not under a parliamentary system of rule.

Why?

Because unlike our system, the PM can dissolve the lower house, essentially clean house but on the other hand, the MPs can hold a no confidence vote and literally stop the PM in his/her tracks.

This puts the people’s rights second, not first.

Meaning that we the people elect our representatives and they answer to us and us alone unless they do something illegal. The difference here is that our president holds office at the behest of the congress who holds office at the behest of our will (yea can you believe that?). If the president dissolves congress, it means we have to hold new elections for the entire house, which means our vote does not count because we don't control dissolving it in the first place and the path of rights will be interrupted – which the path is God to the people to the states to the federal government.

AND FINALLY

The provinces rights and powers are defined, which means that unlike the US constitution, which defines the limits of the federal government only and not the states, the Canadian constitution seems to define both the federal level and the provincial level of government with some detail. Remember that our constitution assumes the powers and rights come from God to the people to the states to the federal government.

Oh I like the idea of the Queen appointing the Governor General, there seems to be a bit of fun there.. serving at the Queen's pleasure …. “Michaëlle, fetch me another corgi for dinner, I would like it medium with some red wine and don't forget the braised carrots this time”

God why is the English so confusing?

They give us Cricket, and then Westminster rule!

It was bad enough learning how to play cricket but this is just too much.:)
 

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
I seemed to have perked your interest!!

OVM,
Today I got a copy of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. Pretty interesting read there.

The thing that I think you are missing with some of this is that the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms is a modernly defined version of our bill of rights and such is not limited to just an overview of the rights of the people but more defining as I would expect in a modern constitution style charter.

The distinct and important difference that I see is the Canadian Charter has the limitations and notwithstanding clauses within itself where the US constitution does not.

The notwithstanding clause was used by Quebec to institute French only in that province.
If a province doesn't like a federal law or piece of legistlation where they might think the Feds crossed the line of Federal interference they the province can invoke the notwithstanding clause.


Now what I think it means and you may already know this, it allows the Canadian courts to interpret the rights more broadly within some limitations due to the limitations clause as a preemptive measure but I don’t see a mechanism to address violations outside of the limitations clause. What I mean is that in our system, there has to be a violation of the right to bring suit (for example the second amendment suit over the DC gun ban), where in the Canadian system, it looks like there does not have to be a violation of any sort to initiate it but on the other hand there is no real protection of fundamental rights due to the limits of the charter which may mean that if there was a freedom of religion issue, it may not be heard at all in the courts. (maybe I don’t remember my English law all that well?)

Like any constitutional challenge the Supreme Court has the option to hear it or not. Do they have that option here?
Make sense?

The thing I see as part of the problem when asking why the US does not do this or that, is the way we evolved differently but both have a common origin. This comes to the fact that the charter is detailed to answer to the people for things that the US bill of rights never have to. The assumption is being made that these governmental services exist for the people in Canada where in the US constitution they never exist in the first place but it allowed the people themselves to create and maintain the services for the good of all.

See what I am saying?

The other thing that I really think matters is Section Four –

4.(1) No House of Commons and no legislative assembly shall continue for longer than five years from the date fixed for the return of the writs at a general election of its members.
(2) In time of real or apprehended war, invasion or insurrection, a House of Commons may be continued by Parliament and a legislative assembly may be continued by the legislature beyond five years if such continuation is not opposed by the votes of more than one-third of the members of the House of Commons or the legislative assembly, as the case may be.
Now this is essentially term limits at its best and I wish we could have this here but not under a parliamentary system of rule.

Why?

Because unlike our system, the PM can dissolve the lower house, essentially clean house but on the other hand, the MPs can hold a no confidence vote and literally stop the PM in his/her tracks.
Have to remember Greg they have more then 2 partys...alliances are made and backroom deals to support each others common agendas...The no confidence vote is hardly used only in extreme cases....If we assume that if most of the House members object to something that bad then follow the trail that the people they represent would feel the same.
A PM hardly ever disolves the house on his own accord...The voters have traditional bounced them out for making them go to the polls an expensive deal just because he/she couldn't make a deal on an issue.

This puts the people’s rights second, not first.

Meaning that we the people elect our representatives and they answer to us and us alone unless they do something illegal. The difference here is that our president holds office at the behest of the congress who holds office at the behest of our will (yea can you believe that?). If the president dissolves congress, it means we have to hold new elections for the entire house, which means our vote does not count because we don't control dissolving it in the first place and the path of rights will be interrupted – which the path is God to the people to the states to the federal government.

AND FINALLY

The provinces rights and powers are defined, which means that unlike the US constitution, which defines the limits of the federal government only and not the states, the Canadian constitution seems to define both the federal level and the provincial level of government with some detail. Remember that our constitution assumes the powers and rights come from God to the people to the states to the federal government.

Oh I like the idea of the Queen appointing the Governor General, there seems to be a bit of fun there.. serving at the Queen's pleasure …. “Michaëlle, fetch me another corgi for dinner, I would like it medium with some red wine and don't forget the braised carrots this time”

The Governor Generals post is more tradition then anything still alot of monarchists around....The Queen has no formal say in anything but they let on that she does...for old time sake...They we still use royal asscent for passage of bills. which is also tradition and not binding.
God why is the English so confusing?

They give us Cricket, and then Westminster rule!

It was bad enough learning how to play cricket but this is just too much.:


That being said also remember it is alot younger 1968 it was drafted ....it hasn't the amendments and fine tuning yours has received.
 
Last edited:

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
Greg said "Remember that our constitution assumes the powers and rights come from God to the people to the states to the federal government."

If thats the natural progression of the constitition, assumes powers and rights come from God, how can you have separation of government and church?
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
OVM, There is no seperation of church and state in our constitution. The only mention is that congress shall make no religion. There was mention in other writings from back then but it was not written into the constitution. That is another made up thing used to take away our way of life. Layoutshooter
 

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
OVM, There is no seperation of church and state in our constitution. The only mention is that congress shall make no religion. There was mention in other writings from back then but it was not written into the constitution. That is another made up thing used to take away our way of life. Layoutshooter

For a "made up thing" it sure has caused alot of hard feelings...

God, Alla, Budda, the only difference I see is they way people pray and traditions,,,it all incurs a supereme being...no matter how you cut it.
 
Top