CIA Workers Killed in Afghanistan as U.S. Steps Up Spying Role

[OntarioVanMan]

CIA Workers Killed in Afghanistan as U.S. Steps Up Spying Role - Bloomberg.com


I would hazard to guess since the article says they "mingle" with the locals they are not in uniform and if captured could be shot on the spot as Layout says...That said...

It is a terrible loss..sad day.

 

[layoutshooter]

It is always a terrible day when brave men die for us. OVM, that was kinda not nice. They were not enemy combatants. They were there working a "HUMINT" mission. That is what is known as "human intelligence". The more difficult and dangerous kind of intelligence work there is. It is a shame the garbage that so many heap on the CIA. They are good, brave people. They keep us safe. Without our intelligence services we would be in real trouble.

 

[OntarioVanMan]

A spy is not a combatant? They gather intel to help the U.S. and its military for further operations and that is not spying? They kill people just like soldiers except secretly.

Kinda not nice? I was pointing out how it is ok for us to do such things but not our enemy and how things are always judged not evenly.

 

[layoutshooter]

You have no idea in the world what a "spy" is OVM, you have been watching too many movies. The main "mission" of our intelligence services now, as when I was in, is to avoid war and death. The best way to stay out of wars is to know what your enemy is doing. It is difficult work, and for some, dangerous. The constant stress is unreal, even for those in "safe areas"

Those who serve in our intelligence services are some of our most "forgotten heroes". They give up much of their lives to serve you. They miss birthdays, aniverserys, weddings, funerals, their kids plays and on and on. The families suffer too. Kids miss their moms and dads. The divorce rate is staggering. Many spouses cannot handle there husband or wife coming home and not being able to talk about what their day was like. They could see that they were hurting but never knew why and could not help. Many just left.

The stress shortened lives, greatly. The hours were brutal. One doctor I had described our shifts and the effects on our bodies as being in a permanate state of jet lag.

I was lucky. Mrs. Layoutshooter is a very strong woman, she could handle it. I know just how hard it was on her.

People in this country rag on the CIA and other services. They do not deserve it. They are the good guys and I thank God everyday that there are still people that are willing to stand up against the evil out there.

 

[OntarioVanMan]

I was not discounting the CIA's service one bit.

They serve a purpose. They subject themselves to all you say ...And they do it voluntarily.

Now..that said, they are still spies and on foreign land..not wearing a uniform. They are a combatant...

 

[layoutshooter]

Assuming that they were there doing what I think they were, and I would be willing to bet money that they were, they were not even armed. They would have spent most of there time in a building doing interviews etc.

The rule under the Geneva convention apply to "combatants". Soldiers, marines, sailors etc, who would wear no uniform or say, a German in a U.S. uniform. You are comparing apples and oranges.

To even try to compare those brave men to that coward that tried to blow up an airplane, is well, this site does not allow me to say it. That is crossing the line.

 

[greg334]

These guys were not "spies", they seemed to be recruiters - which Layout can confirm or deny this - they recruited from the local population as part of overall intel mission on the ground. A lot of the times the military will not or can not do this work for a number of reasons, one being a lack of personal in that area and what happened was a mis-step in security where the person who intended to kill took a chance to kill any American that they could. The chances are that he would have set off his bomb at the checkpoint if he was searched but instead made it through security and did what he did to inflict worst damage because of what happens a lot - an assumption was made he was safe because of what he was there for. Not the first time it happened, but nevertheless it is a loss for the country.

 

[layoutshooter]

Yes Greg, recruiting would be one of their main goals. "Fishing" for information would be another. They would have been like the guys who helped to figure out where Saddam Hussain was hiding.

 

[OntarioVanMan]

Assuming that they were there doing what I think they were, and I would be willing to bet money that they were, they were not even armed. They would have spent most of there time in a building doing interviews etc.

The rule under the Geneva convention apply to "combatants". Soldiers, marines, sailors etc, who would wear no uniform or say, a German in a U.S. uniform. You are comparing apples and oranges.

To even try to compare those brave men to that coward that tried to blow up an airplane, is well, this site does not allow me to say it. That is crossing the line.

I am NOT that bad...
I was NOT even trying to compare to those animals...

So you are saying they were more logistics then actual field agents?

You know and I know that most of the rules of war are pretty much out the window on this one...It is, what it is...a dirty rotten war. Where the world is the battleground.

 

[layoutshooter]

I am glad you were not trying to compare those animals to real men, I can relax now.

They were field agents. The thing is that most don't know what that means. The are the guys that pay the bribes to get intell, that get the favors needed, etc. It is not James Bond stuff, it is real. The "recruit" locals to work for us. Those people often put their lives on the line too. There are many Iraqis living in Michigan that often return to Iraq to "work for us". Some don't return alive. It is a nasty war.

By the way, in the intell service, any agent that is working at any site other than headquarters is called a "field agent". It does not matter if they are covert or not.

 

[greg334]

You know and I know that most of the rules of war are pretty much out the window on this one...It is, what it is...a dirty rotten war. Where the world is the battleground.

What?

The rules of war?

They always apply, the restrictions placed on our soldiers by both our congress (who has no business being involved in operations) and by two inept presidents has forced us to be police and not a fighting force. As I said before, these people don't understand what political correctness is all about but understand force and the commander on the ground taking the "win the minds and hearts" approach which may be the one underlying issue which may be a cause of the failures on the ground and no forward movement. I still say tell the people "if you don't want to support us, then we will get out and let you all return to the oppression that you had before" - that will get their attention because they understand the past, they understand the taliban and what that actually means. It is a bargining chip that we should have used right from the beginning.

 

[layoutshooter]

You got it Greg. The past is always the key to the future.

On a side note. I was talking to my son that is stationed in Afghanistan today. While we were talking 2 fighter jets roared over his post, on their way to blast bad guys. It was a "sweet" sound. Give 'em HELL!!! My son says it is really cool to see the firing missiles just at dawn and dusk. Lots of really neat fire trails.

 

[RLENT]

OVM, that was kinda not nice.

Yeah ...... well ..... if you think what OVM said was "kinda not nice", you really ain't gonna be happy with what I got to say ....

The truth is, there are many "kinda not nice" facts out there - that they are not nice, has no bearing on their truth.

They were not enemy combatants. They were there working a "HUMINT" mission. That is what is known as "human intelligence". The more difficult and dangerous kind of intelligence work there is.

You have no real way to know exactly what they were doing:

"The names and details of the employees’ work won’t be released “due to the sensitivity of their mission and other ongoing operations,” the agency said."

It is a shame the garbage that so many heap on the CIA. They are good, brave people.

Unfortunately, these kinda of one-sided statements, made no doubt, as either a consequence of wearing rose-colored glasses whose thickness is measured in feet rather than inches - or perhaps as a member (either current, or former) of the associated intelligence community (and therefore an apologist)- completely overlooks the numerous documented instances where it has been shown that the CIA, and at least some of it's agents, are neither brave, nor good.

In fact, based on the historical record, the words cowards and criminals would be far more accurate.

One wonders, how anyone, who is just the least bit informed and claims any shred of morality, could defend the entire organization, and at least some of the activities it has been involved in, carte-blanche, with no reservations whatsoever.

There are, no doubt, many good and brave people in the CIA, and in the intelligence community generally - however to say that they are all good, is to deny history, and documented fact.

They keep us safe.

No - they don't. They make us targets.

In general, people outside of the US tend to be far better informed of the actual activities of the organization, than do US citizens, in whose name, ironically, the corrupt and criminal activities are done.

This is understandable for two reasons:

1. People who are potential targets have a highly personal interest in knowing the agency and what it does - at least if they wish to continue breathing ....
   
2. US citizens (to use words of LOS), being a good and decent people (on the whole) would prefer to remain unaware of the horrors committed in their name. Ignorance is indeed bliss.

Without our intelligence services we would be in real trouble.

If intelligence gathering was all that our intelligence services did, that might actually be true - however, that isn't the case at all - as documented by the CIA's own records, some of which have been declassified and released (God only knows what sorts of documented criminal activity hasn't been released)

So essentially, the premise being put out in the quote above is: "With our intelligence services, we aren't in real trouble."

I would submit that this is not at all true, and is a delusion.

I would further submit that we are, in fact, in real trouble ....

Only a retard could believe that deploying such an organization on a world-wide basis and allowing it to act against the interests of a large segment of the world's population, violating human rights, committing torture and assassinations, subverting democracy, is not going to **** off those that we share the planet with, and act against.

If you wish to get a brief overview of the criminal activities that the CIA has been involved in (including those against US citizens), one can review the timeline of it's activities at the following link below.

This was written by Steve Kangas (former military intelligence) - who appears to have been assassinated (although being ruled a suicide by local police, two shots to the head), and was found was found on the 39th floor in the restroom of the offices of Richard Mellon Scaife:

A Timeline of CIA Atrocities

There is no shortage of documentation out there on the CIA and it's criminal activities - it's voluminous - all one has to do is look.

Of course, there are those that would prefer not to - instead singing the song of how wonderful it's all been, and how these murderers and criminals are good and brave.

To that I say: Bull****

 

[RLENT]

People in this country rag on the CIA and other services. They do not deserve it.

Some of them absolutely deserve it.

In fact, in some instances, I would agree with the sentiments expressed in Steve Kangas "Timeline" webpage:

"The CIA should be abolished, its leadership dismissed and its relevant members tried for crimes against humanity.

Our intelligence community should be rebuilt from the ground up, with the goal of collecting and analyzing information.

As for covert action, there are two moral options. The first one is to eliminate covert action completely. But this gives jitters to people worried about the Adolf Hitlers of the world. So a second option is that we can place covert action under extensive and true democratic oversight. For example, a bipartisan Congressional Committee of 40 members could review and veto all aspects of CIA operations upon a majority or super-majority vote. Which of these two options is best may be the subject of debate, but one thing is clear: like dictatorship, like monarchy, unaccountable covert operations should die like the dinosaurs they are."

They are the good guys and I thank God everyday that there are still people that are willing to stand up against the evil out there.

By committing yet more evil ......

 

[layoutshooter]

It is so nice that you have such a fine image of me and my friends. I am truly sorry that I wasted the better part of my adult life working for people like you. Frankly it was not worth the effort. Amazing, please tell what first hand knowlege YOU have, if any?

 

[OntarioVanMan]

It is so nice that you have such a fine image of me and my friends. I am truly sorry that I wasted the better part of my adult life working for people like you. Frankly it was not worth the effort. Amazing, please tell what first hand knowledge YOU have, if any?

This was written by Steve Kangas (former military intelligence) - who appears to have been assassinated (although being ruled a suicide by local police, two shots to the head), and was found was found on the 39th floor in the restroom of the offices of Richard Mellon Scaife:

Now who would have first hand knowledge besides you in this forum?...But documented writings of people in the same profession tell a different story.

 

[layoutshooter]

Who wrote what OVM? By the way, there are at least 3 others in this forum from time to time that do have first hand experience.

Tell me, why is it that you choose to only believe the so-called bad stuff you read? I know you have no first hand experience, so intell agents are always bad and guilty?

 

[RLENT]

Now who would have first hand knowledge besides you in this forum?

Well ..... ya never know .....

Of course, had LOS bothered to read what was contained in the link, indeed - even what I wrote in post - he would know exactly who wrote it.

But I got an idea the seething rage got the better of him.

But documented writings of people in the same profession tell a different story.

Yeah ..... and there is no shortage of it.

Of course, it will serve the interests of some to label and dismiss such folks who expose criminal wrongdoing as "malcontents" .....

There is one thing for sure though - there is no disputing the agency's own declassified documents ..... that's just a little bit harder to get around.

 

[layoutshooter]

Are you able to answer a simple question? Do you have any first hand experience? Seems like an easy question to answer, yes or no. But then, you can't spew much with a 3 or 2 letter answer.

 

[RLENT]

It is so nice that you have such a fine image of me and my friends. I am truly sorry that I wasted the better part of my adult life working for people like you. Frankly it was not worth the effort.

Really ?

Why - because I am against immorality and criminality - even when it practiced in the nation's and my name ?

Is that the problem ?

Amazing, please tell what first hand knowlege YOU have, if any?

Well, if I told you, I'd have to .....

Seriously, are you saying that the only way to have knowledge of something is in the first hand ?

In the reverse, you clearly do not have firsthand knowledge of everything this nation, or it's minions, have done.