The Other Side Of The Coin

letzrockexpress

Veteran Expediter
I see it a different way, being on both the helping side of things and the depression side. I see that many of the people who do fall between the cracks are the ones who should get the help; they are the ones who will become more productive after being helped and most likely to help others in turn. The ones, like a lot of welfare recipients, seem to be selfish and greedy to the point that they will never be willing to help out others when they have opportunity to help.Remember it is not about the money but the stuff, and the stuff drives people today.

I don't believe this to be true the majority of the time. There are those who, if given an opportunity, will take it and run with it, i.e. school tutiton, scholarships, etc. The majority will not. Not only will they not, after they have been given something, they will come back for more, wanting a larger portion of said handout and/or complaining about the first one they got. I used to volunteer for a group that attempted to help some of these people. It was a hard lesson in futility.
Until some sort of real incentive is offered for these people to help themselves, we are screwed...
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
WOW!! I have to agree with that rocket!! The world might end. I used to work at a youth prison, several thousand of those "little lovelies" went through when I was there. Only TWO that I know of "made it" after getting out. They were given chance after chance. Most came from welfare homes. Most were lazy and thought that they were "OWED" everything in life and if not given what they wanted that they were "ENTITLED" to take it, any way they could. The two that made it both went into the Army. One of which I wrote a recogmendation letter to help him get into OCS (officer candidate school) He called me when he made Second Looey and thanked me. At least they made it. Layoutshooter
 

letzrockexpress

Veteran Expediter
WOW!! I have to agree with that rocket!! The world might end. I used to work at a youth prison, several thousand of those "little lovelies" went through when I was there. Only TWO that I know of "made it" after getting out. They were given chance after chance. Most came from welfare homes. Most were lazy and thought that they were "OWED" everything in life and if not given what they wanted that they were "ENTITLED" to take it, any way they could. The two that made it both went into the Army. One of which I wrote a recogmendation letter to help him get into OCS (officer candidate school) He called me when he made Second Looey and thanked me. At least they made it. Layoutshooter

See. We're not that far apart...
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Now, if I can just get you to understand the military reality of the world you have a REAL chance at becoming normal!! :D Layoutshooter
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Nope, sorry. It does not. Sadly there are few good sources to learn reality out there. Much of the real history of the Cold War was deliberatly surpressed and mis-reported. Even much of what happened during WW2 seems to be going through some "Re-Writes" This is NOT a good thing. We are losing WW2 vets very quickly now and many Cold War vets are gone. The facts will become more and more buried as time passes and more of those who were there are buried. This will allow it to happen again. Layoutshooter
 

DougTravels

Not a Member
I think I got it!! I've always wondered what the 334 in Greg334 was all about.

It is the minimum number of words in his posts, am I right? Do I win anything?:D
 

MrGautama

Not a Member
It's the pork that gets the headlines, but pork spending actually accounts for a mere one-half of one percent of the federal spending. You know where the spending is? Only six, count 'em six categories in the federal budget - Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, Defense, National Debt Interest and Assistance programs like HUD, Welfare, Unemployment Compensation - account for 82 percent of total spending. 82 friggin' percent. Are you kiddin' me? The remaining 18 percent are programs for Homeland Security and Highways and everything else.

Medicare, Medicaid and Welfare are effective on autopilot, which means their spending is not set by a specific amount appropriated by the president or Congress on an annual basis, but rather is determined, get this, by the number of people eligible for the programs and the costs they create, whatever that figure comes to. That's a blank check. It should be no surprise that such "mandatory" programs (as they are called in Washington) have been, and will continue to be, the fastest-growing and largest parts of the federal budget, and the most wasteful.

The first part of your post is not worth responding for obvious reasons, the rest is so interesting I can't pass it up. The quoted segment seems very logical, or does it?. I mean how can anybody expect that the government spend even more in social programs when they already take the biggest chunk of the available money?.
So far so good, right?. In your case the problem lays in the rigid thinking of the conservative mind, you are using the same model of "creative accounting" that the government you despise so much has rammed down your throat without even realizing it, so much for the independent free thinker!. First of all, why do you include social security (a trust fund and not part of the federal budget general revenue) in the general equation?, it certainly makes the social programs look bigger and is a convenient way to hide the irrational spending in defense, which is in grand measure a subsidy or handout to the defense contractors in general and for the most part corporate welfare. The money spent in projecting power around the world to the benefit of the business elite, or how is called by more honest thinkers: "the price of empire"; is just one, if not the most wasteful programs in our federal spending but so cleverly disguised that most don't see it.

Now, the 82 'friggin' percent begins to look a lot different. We could also analyze it in the context of just the discretionary spending where defense drains 57% of the total, it would be even more evident the complete diversion of public funds to private hands.
The government as we know it can't just loot the public coffers and hand the money of the elite; instead it is forced to create all these necessary illusions to channel the funds upwards; namely the need to invade Iraq, the war on terror, the axis of evil, the cold war, etc. It would be mutually beneficial if once in a while you had a thought of your own, but recent research seems to confirm that as an impossibility.

The money spent on defense or some "crazy subsidy" for the rich is a drop in the bucket compared to this.

Puhleeze.
 

MrGautama

Not a Member
The only one's that can "fall through the cracks" are the ones that are just plain too stupid to put thier arms out to stop from falling. You have to want to make it. You have to want to work. You have to want to succeed on your own. It is all up to the individual. Anyone can do it, but it takes EFFORT!!! Layoutshooter

Some time ago I came across a piece that Jim Moss wrote that represents as clear as it can be my thoughts on the matter:

"Some people are rich because they have worked hard and been smart. But others are rich because they got lucky and were in the right place at the right time. And others are rich because they inherited a lot of money. Still others are rich because they stole a lot of money.

Some people are poor because they are lazy and stupid. But others are poor because they were unlucky and were in the wrong place at the wrong time. And others are poor because they were born into a desperate situation with little or no opportunity. Still others are poor because they got sick or were in an accident and had no safety net to support them. And still others are poor because they got screwed out of their money by dishonest people.

To say that those who are wealthy deserve their wealth, and that those who are poor deserve their poverty is to look at the world through the simplistic eyes of a child, and to misunderstand the complexity of the situation and the urgent need for compassion."
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
MrGuatama, you wanna make this about me, and get personal, or about the issues?

As for Social Security, no, it's no longer a trust fund, as the government had borrowed from it now to the point where it is a part of the Federal Budget and is accounted for as part of the general revenue. Look it up.

Also, including Social Security as part of the social programs in no way obfuscates defense spending, both rational and irrational. The point of lumping them together in that manner was to point out how much is spent in the defense and pure social programs that make up the largest chunk of the budget. We know how large the defense budget is, so other than the remaining 18%, the rest of spent on pure social programs. You see any and all defense spending from a Utopian perspective, which is to say the money spent on defense can always be better spent elsewhere. You see it as nothing more than channeling money upwards to people who don't deserve it. You see a lot of things.
 

chefdennis

Veteran Expediter
Tax dollars taken and spent on defense of the country through the military is Constitutional, spending tax dollars on entitlement programs for welfare bums , is not...........its thief of tax dollars...most entitlement programs are un-funded government mandates, so with no money to fund them, the bleeding heart libs, steal tax dollars........
 

MrGautama

Not a Member
As for Social Security, no, it's no longer a trust fund, as the government had borrowed from it now to the point where it is a part of the Federal Budget and is accounted for as part of the general revenue. Look it up.


Following again the path dictated to you, I'm sure you are referring to Junior's statement: “There is no trust ‘fund’ — just IOUs that I saw firsthand”. As usual in his infinite ignorance he thought that the pieces of paper in that ivory filing cabinet in the offices of the Bureau of the Public Debt were the “actual” IOUs. This IOUs as Junior called them are “just” Treasury Bonds arguably the safest investment instrument in the planet. Where would you rather invest the surplus of the Social Security, in the stock market?.
The surplus is the trust fund and it's lent to the government because of the safety it represents and it perfectly could have been invested somewhere else. This money that the social security trust fund lends to the government was supposed to be used to repay part the national debt so when the time came to redeem the bonds Uncle Sam would be in better shape to pay back the money borrowed from the trust fund. Of course nothing like that happened, the debt increased, including during the Clinton years where by virtue of again some “creative accounting” it looked like we had a balanced budget, and now we have this leeches trying to convince the public that social security has to be privatized using the argument that “there is no fund” and is “going bankrupt”, I would like to hear what Bill Gates and other wealthy individuals have to say about their treasury bonds being called just IOUs.
Please don't be a pawn in their game!.



Also, including Social Security as part of the social programs in no way obfuscates defense spending, both rational and irrational. The point of lumping them together in that manner was to point out how much is spent in the defense and pure social programs that make up the largest chunk of the budget. We know how large the defense budget is, so other than the remaining 18%, the rest of spent on pure social programs.


As explained before, social security is not part of the budget so “lumping it together” has no merit in any kind of comparison.



You see any and all defense spending from a Utopian perspective, which is to say the money spent on defense can always be better spent elsewhere. You see it as nothing more than channeling money upwards to people who don't deserve it.


I don't know what a Utopian perspective would call for in regards military spending, the one I know is the rational perspective. The rational one calls to adapt depending on the real threat aggression and not an imaginary one designed to maintain a military force almost equal to the rest of the world combined (45%)!, in order to run an empire from which we the people see very little benefit, if there is any to being an empire.

To get a perspective on this here are the ones that follow in their expenditure as a percentage of the total around the world: UK 5%, China 5%, France 4%, Japan 4%, Germany 3%, Russia 3%. No wonder why we need an Axis of Evil and a War on Terror to justify the insanity of our military spending.
You asked me how much, well; cutting our military spending in half would be a start!



You see a lot of things.


Yes I do!.



MrGuatama


By the way is Gautama, as in Siddhartha Gautama. You may know who I'm talking about, is that fat dude sitting cross legged that so many statuettes depict.
 

MrGautama

Not a Member
Tax dollars taken and spent on defense of the country through the military is Constitutional, spending tax dollars on entitlement programs for welfare bums , is not...........its thief of tax dollars...most entitlement programs are un-funded government mandates, so with no money to fund them, the bleeding heart libs, steal tax dollars........


Don't take me wrong Dennis, I appreciate your opinion but honestly you should leave these topics to the grown-ups!.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
Following again the path dictated to you, I'm sure you are referring to Junior's statement:
No path was dictated to me, and you're dead wrong about what I am referring to.

By the way is Gautama, as in Siddhartha Gautama. You may know who I'm talking about, is that fat dude sitting cross legged that so many statuettes depict.
Sorry about the typo. It wasn't intentional, I assure you.
 
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