Israel attacks Gaza, 195 reported killed

[chefdennis]

So that i don't catch the rath for not commenting on a news link and article, I'll say right up front, "It is about time and , It works for me, they just didn't go far enough or do enough damage, should have wiped them out!"

Israel attacks Gaza, 195 reported killed

Sat Dec 27, 2008 11:29am EST

By Nidal al-Mughrabi

GAZA (Reuters) - Israeli warplanes and helicopters pounded the Hamas-ruled Gaza Strip on Saturday, killing at least 195 people in one of the bloodiest days in the Palestinians' conflict with Israel.

Militants in the Gaza Strip, who have launched dozens of rocket attacks against Israel since a truce expired just over a week ago, fired more salvoes that killed one Israeli man and wounded several others...........

Complete article here:

Israel attacks Gaza, 195 reported killed | Reuters

 

[RLENT]

I'll say right up front, "It is about time and , It works for me, they just didn't go far enough or do enough damage, should have wiped them out!"

Should have wiped out who ..... exactly ?

Surely not "the at least 15 women and some children" that were reported to also have been killed in the article .... ?

 

[chefdennis]

Relent wrote:

Should have wiped out who ..... exactly ?

Everyone in the Gaza strip, including with women and children, live there, die there... Its just that simple.. Without getting into the politics or religious afiliation of the ruling party and the majority of those in the Palestinians living in Gaza and working with HAMAS, I have no reason to feel anything for them, other then to rid the world of them, before they can make good on there promised Great jihad against the west. So if Israel wants to move that along, more power to them. But i have never been accused of being PC. But then this isn't our war, yet!! (1 can hope)

I also back any war we decide to be in at anytime for whatever reason, or no reason for that matter. And forget any complaint of a "pre-emptive strike", screw that, hit them before they get a chance to setup any kind of offense or defense , just hit them until they are gone. but the weak kneed liberals don't have a stomach for was anymore and have cut our military off at the knees, so you won't have to worry about it,.... until its too late, then I hope you can protect yours and yourself...........

Oh and yes i was in nam, both sons have served in the middle east with mulitiple tours and one is with 'military contractor now, you might have heard of them, The Rand Group, been around since WW2 in the Military contractor business.

I'd also willing puy more to the federal government, if i could be sure it all went to the military!!

PS: Its been said more then a few times by the people that lve in the middle east and are more educated on the subject of women and children dying all over the region, that "when they (hamas, hizzolah, islamic muslums) love their children more then they hate the "jews and the west*" (*to paraphase) their will continue to be death to both and endless war.

As for those living in gaza, when they get rid of hamas, and mae efforts to control the bombings and rocket attacks into israel, then "maybe" an effort can be made to keep the peace, but if not, then destroy the place and all their.

Bother you?, Don't much care for my point of view? Oh well.............As I said, I have never been accused of being PC, and never will be mistaken for someone who gives a crap.......

 

[RLENT]

Thanks ..... just wanted to clarify exactly what you meant (..... a had a fairly good idea - but just wanted to be really sure )

Well .... looks like it was a fairly short Christmas season this year ...... might as well skip the "Peace on Earth, Goodwill Towards Men" ..... and just send death and destruction, rather than gifts .....

 

[RLENT]

Bother you?, Don't much care for my point of view? Oh well............

Nope .... doesn't bother me anymore than the rest of the terminally insane folks that are out on the loose, roaming the streets ....

Just gotta keep an eye on them, avoid letting them hang around or get too close to the sane, productive members of society ..... and when they get to the point of doing more than flapping their gums and ..... actually start to commence to harming others, well then, ya isolate them and lock them up ..... so the only people they can hurt are themselves.

 

[chefdennis]

Relent wrote:

ya isolate them and lock them up ..... so the only people they can hurt are themselves.

So I would take it that you are making every effort to "isolate and lockup" all of the 'extreme islamic muslums" that have for centuries been working towards the end of the jews, and the "west"???

If you need proof of their actions, more then you get from the MSM, i'd be more then happy to provide you with enough of this scums actions would wide to warrant just what you stated should be done... But personally, taking them out permenantly works for me and more then a few others, i'd bet you can even find more then a few right here on this board....but this is not the place for that type of discussion, the libs go off their rockers......but i'd be more then happy to discuss it off the board!!

As for just flapping gums, i just hope that you are comfortable defending your family and yourself, because sooner or later, you will have the need to do so, right here in our own country!!

But hey, why no position on those in gaza bombing innocent women and children in israel??? Those women and children don't matter?? Or just the women and children of islamic muslums , hamas, and hizzolah matter huh?

Do the women and kids that are told of their fortunes from allah after their death while killing jews and westerners as sucide bombers get a special pass from you too? Or just those that arm them and help in the backround?? You know, the so called innocent......

Oh and, those in gaza, they don't do christmas, they tend to believe in allah, so no need to worry about the "peace and good will" towards them, and as I said, i have no need for them anyhow, so it was never coming from me.............BUT, I cetainly do wish you Peace and goodwill, won't offer up good luck though, i don't think you are in need of too much luck, you seem to be the type of person that makes his own way and not much of it has to do with luck, a little, but not much.....

PS: as for the sane and productive, I've been pretty productive in my 55 yrs here, as for beng sane, well...*"ive always been crazy, it keeps me from goin insane......."

*With attribution to the late great waylon jennings

 

[LDB]

I guess I'm either crazy or insane one. I have this wild notion that innocents are either good innocents or evil innocents. You've got the good innocents, women and children, attempting to live a peaceful life among their peaceful, law-abiding, innocent families. You've got the evil innocents, women and children, living among their evil, cruel, mass-murdering families, many of them knowing what's going on.

Ideally there would be no evil. Sadly that will never happen. In the absence of that impossible Utopian society we must attempt to eliminate the evil from the world we have. If that means collateral damage to evil innocents, while not desirable, it is less objectionable than collateral damage to good innocents.

I can't fault Israel for their action. They, at least at this time, are the land of the good innocents, at least moreso than Gaza. It's time to wipe as much of the evil off the planet as possible. Although we almost assuredly won't get rid of it all perhaps we can get rid of enough that the remainder will be weakened to ineffectiveness.

 

[RLENT]

So I would take it that you are making every effort to "isolate and lockup" all of the 'extreme islamic muslums" that have for centuries been working towards the end of the jews, and the "west"???

No, I'm not ..... just as no other person on this board is (every effort ? c'mon ..... I mean we are expediters afterall .....)

...... of course, I never said that I was (a fact that seems to have escaped you) .... however I surely would support anyone who has that as a goal and undertakes it (locking up the nutjobs so they can't hurt others)

If you need proof of their actions, more then you get from the MSM, i'd be more then happy to provide you with enough of this scums actions would wide to warrant just what you stated should be done...

"Their" actions ? "this" scum ?

The real problem I have here chef is that you are lumping a bunch of people together ..... people are individuals .... a litterbug is not the same thing as Jeffery Dahmer .... and jaywalker is not the same thing as a child molester.

But personally, taking them out permenantly works for me and more then a few others, i'd bet you can even find more then a few right here on this board....

Don't doubt in the least - since there isn't a intelligence test to become a member of EO ..... let alone one for being sane or rational ......

One only has to look back in history to see repeatedly to what heights of insanity a mob will rise .... nothing new there ... it's old news .....

but this is not the place for that type of discussion, the libs go off their rockers

Certainly that is true (libs going off their rockers) .... but then, you know, it's not as though the "libs" have cornered the market on that .... the "cons" do a pretty good job at it as well.

There's probably even a few that would be hard to tag with trite political labels ..... that occassionally go off the deep-end ..... (I might even be one .... )

......but i'd be more then happy to discuss it off the board!!

You can email me anytime - I don't have my link blocked here on EO.

As for just flapping gums, i just hope that you are comfortable defending your family and yourself,

I'm entirely comfortable defending my myself, my family .... and anyone of else of goodwill that would be worthwhile saving ....

because sooner or later, you will have the need to do so, right here in our own country!!

Well .... it could be that I already have .... in fact, it could be that what I view as "the threat" might not be exactly what you have in mind .... indeed, I might even view the threat as being you .....

But hey, why no position on those in gaza bombing innocent women and children in israel???

Lemme see if I can help you here chef ....... I thought my reply was fairly clear:

"Just gotta keep an eye on them, avoid letting them hang around or get too close to the sane, productive members of society ..... and when they get to the point of doing more than flapping their gums and ..... actually start to commence to harming others, well then, ya isolate them and lock them up ..... so the only people they can hurt are themselves."

You see anything in there in that statement that limits it to anyone ? .... anything that limits to a particular race, creed, color, religion, or philosophy ? Or any other classification that you care to dream up .....

We clear ?

Those women and children don't matter??

..... of course they do ..... it's just that they're not the only thing that matters ....

That was my point, all matter .....

Or just the women and children of islamic muslums , hamas, and hizzolah matter huh?

Nope, not "just" .....

Do the women and kids that are told of their fortunes from allah after their death while killing jews and westerners as sucide bombers get a special pass from you too?

Nope - it's just that I don't advocate indiscriminate killing of people based on either where they reside geographically .... or their particular religion .... something, that from your statement, YOU apparently do .....

Or just those that arm them and help in the backround?? You know, the so called innocent......

Those would not be innocents ..... such would not be called innocent by me.

But then I'm not stupid or foolish enough to believe that everyone that resides in, or is in, Gaza is arming and helping Muslim extremists ......

Oh and, those in gaza, they don't do christmas,

You sure about that ?

Really, really sure ?

Gaza Catholics cancel Christmas Eve Midnight Mass in protest of blockade

they tend to believe in allah, so no need to worry about the "peace and good will" towards them,

Really ? .... is that the way it works ?

Is just some part of your own particular secular philosophy ?

Or is it grounded in some belief in a higher power ?

and as I said, i have no need for them anyhow,

No need for them ...... hmmm .... are they not God's creatures ?

so it was never coming from me.............

I have no idea what the above means ......

BUT, I cetainly do wish you Peace and goodwill, won't offer up good luck though, i don't think you are in need of too much luck, you seem to be the type of person that makes his own way and not much of it has to do with luck, a little, but not much.....

Well thank you for you kind wishes - Peace and Goodwill to you as well.

PS: as for the sane and productive, I've been pretty productive in my 55 yrs here, as for beng sane, well...*"ive always been crazy, it keeps me from goin insane......."

Generally, most are productive of something .....

The question is always: "What did they produce ? What were their products ?"

Some folks live to build a better world where decent folks can live their lives in peace ..... and more or less just get on with it .....

Others see the boogey-man around every corner and hiding in every closet ... based on my experiences in Life and observations, these sort of folks are often fans of the concept contained in the Latin phrase: "Neca eos omnes. Deus suos agnoscet." ("Kill them all. God will know his own." )

This phrase is a mediaeval anecdote. In 1209, during the "Albigensian Crusade" against the Cathar heresy in Southern France, the forces of Orthodox Catholicism had been besieging the city of Beziers, defended by the Cathar heretics, for some time.

Finally they breached the walls of the city and prepared to storm it. The commander of the crusade, Simon de Montfort, Earl of Leicester, pointed out that not everybody in the city was a heretic, some of them were good Catholics, so how should they treat the inhabitants when they captured the city?

A monk who was actually present at the siege recorded the answer of the Papal Legate to the Crusaders, Arnaud-Amaury, the Abbot of Citeaux, as "Neca eos omnes. Deus suos agnoscet." ("Kill them all. God will know his own." ) So the Crusaders followed his advice and killed everybody they could find in Beziers.

It is an classic illustration of how wrong the ignorant, sanctimonious and self-righteous, can be, when they believe themselves to be in the right (.... and most important believe they solely, alone, possess the one, "true" way .... and have God on their side .....)

Insanity ..... evil .... pure and simple .....

FWIW, my wife and I went to Columbus yesterday to celebrate Christmas with my son, his wife, and her parents. Yesterday, because my wife was exhausted on Christmas (she drives a supplemental van for my son, Fedex Home Delivery - and they were slammed up until the day before)

Sadly my daughter-in-law's father (Poppy) had to work (.... at 70+ years of age he's a pretty busy guy - holds two jobs, one at Target, another at Kroger) - so unfortunately he wasn't there .... wished he could have been there - as I really enjoy his company ..... he's a good guy.

We visited, celebrated, and exchanged gifts .... the five of us ..... the women went shopping ... and later my son treated us all to dinner (at Mitchell's Steakhouse in Columbus - impressive .....)

Visiting with my daughter-in-law's mother ("Mommy") is a little difficult - since her English is pretty limited (Indonesian) But she does ok for the most part - and the daughter-in-law translates .... at any rate, some things transcend words .....

Poppy's English is just fine .... probably a benefit of attending continuing education at MIT and Carnegie-Mellon - and being in the business world (.... although he is a little hard of hearing)

After we got back from dinner, we sat down and watched Peter Sellers in the original Pink Panther movie (one of my son's presents) - Mommy seemed to be enjoying it - unfortunately, her clock went off, and the call to prayer began to play .... so, being a devout Muslim, she got up and and went to her room to pray.

She is part of my family - most currently by reason of my son's marriage ..... but even before that, she was also part of my family - the Human family.

And yes, rest assured - if some poor ignorant, misguided soul (that's the polite version) ever sought to harm her, her husband, or any of their family, I certainly can, and would, defend them .....

Afterall, it surely couldn't be too much worse than running through peoples backyards, in the middle of the night, unarmed, chasing down a rapist back in Sacramento back in '79 or '80 .... could it ?

 

[chefdennis]

Dang i hate when that happens! 20 minutes of typing and hit a wrong key and "poof", its gone! Oh well typing and being computer literate never were my strong points, along with a few others.

so lets try again. I won't hit your points one by one since we aren't going to agree on them anyhow and thats all good, im not here to try and convince you or anyone else. you asked, I shared my point of view. but to hit a few:

Lumping people together, you bet. For the most part islamic muslum experts and even the extremist themselves say that if you are a muslum and you don't condemn the actions of the extremist, you are supporting their actions and the extremist will gladly use you as an example of how they present the majority.. CAIR, the Muslum Brotherhood just to name 2......

to that end, there is no moderate islamic muslums, if they don't disenvow the actions of those that want to control the west and remove israel, then they are as guilty as those that kill and terrorize.

relent wrote:

I'm entirely comfortable defending my myself, my family .... and anyone of else of goodwill that would be worthwhile saving ...

Its good that you are confortable in a defensive posture and capable of doing so, you might be putting that to use sooner then you think when the grand jihad is put into motion here on the soil of the US, and it will be.....

As to defending those , "that would be worthwhile saving,....Gee you mean you would make an effort to say any human around you? I mean they are all human right???

As for your view of the "threat" and the fact that you might have already dealt with some type of threat already, hey i am glad that you came out of it ok, at this point.......As to me being a threat to you, only if you are a threat to me and mine......and at this point, that doesn't seem to be a facture at all....

So you have no issue with removing anyone that doesn't fit your opinion of the sane productive huh? Well its good that you aren't discriminating at all, i can appreciate that, and yeap, we are clear....


No not all matter, even you are willing to remove some from society when deemed not to be worthy of being amoung the "sane productive members of society", ie: well then, ya isolate them and lock them up .....

As to indiscriminatly killing the "so-called innocent", hmmm they chose to live in an area that is "indiscriminatly" bombing what some call the innocent in israel. I mean 1310 rocket fired into populated areas of israel from jan 2008 till dec 21st 2008 would seem to lead most people that sooner or later, the other side is going to make a effort to return fire... so those that stay, well if they live there, they might die there, that seems to be what we see happening now, and it will get worse...The return of fire, isn't indiscriminate, its defense of your country and position... They are part of a religion, a region anda polictical party that wishes to do harm to israel and the "west".. so if they stay (and i have no idea, but im pretty sure no one is there against their will) chances of them dying, is pretty good..

not everyone in gaza is arming or helping muslim extremist... that goes back to the no moderates, if you ain't comdemnong them, you are supporting them......

LOL the catholics in gaza... yea all 300 of them , the catolic church at the end of my street in little ole toledo ohio as 3-4 times that many people as members.......But yes my statement was a generalization, my bad

And I personally was not wishing peace and good will to those in gaza or islamic muslums that support either openingly or with their silence the islamic muslum extremist....

As for them being Gods cratures, well they say they are Allahs, creations, not Gods.......but aside form that what about those that you would remove from the sane poductive members of society? they aren't Gods creatios and deserve the same as you??

Thank you for your extending your Holiday Wshes my way!

Relent wrote:

Generally, most are productive of something .....

The question is always: "What did they produce ? What were their products ?"

Some folks live to build a better world where decent folks can live their lives in peace ..... and more or less just get on with it .....

Yea, thats worked well over mans time here on earth....but hey osamaba wants to talk to those that wish us defeat such as "amadumbass" from Iran, lets see how well that goes......

As for latin phrases, i prefer the Greek, "Molon Labe" as it pertains to my firearms...and that is exactly what any islamic muslums jihadist will have to do when they come to the area of mine and myself....

It s good that you were able to spend your holiday with your extended family , while those that were working certainly were in your thoughts, its just not the same as having them with you, but we all have priorities that need our attention even when its not what we would rather do.

As for your dinner, not having been to mitchells, but having friends in the columbus (some that are also chefs and belong to the same Personal Chef Assoc. that I do) I have heard rave review, especially about their wine selections. So yes, very impressive!

As to you defending your daughter in-laws mom, I would expect nothing else from you or any other man with a family....As for being worse then chasing a rapist in sacarmento, im pretty sure dealing with anything or anyine of that caliber from california would be much worse...just my personal viewpoint from living in the hills outside pasadena fora few years...things are just "different" out there...and now with their gun laws in certain parts of the state, it is just unliveable from my view point........

 

[RLENT]

I guess I'm either crazy or insane one.

To be sure - most everyone, to some degree or another, has their own particular idiosyncrasies ... call them whatever you will ....

A wise man- or one who sought to be - might be constantly examining his own thinking and asking "Where have I got this wrong ?" "What am I not getting ?"

But generally speaking, at this time at least, for the majority of the people on this little blue ball we call home, surfing the internet and watching American Idol or Survivor seem to be far more entertaining than contemplation and exercising the grey matter .....

I have this wild notion that innocents are either good innocents or evil innocents.

Yup .... I'd say that's a fairly wild notion .....

Well, here's a thought ..... you might wanna crack the ol' dictionary there .... and really define those three words - to the point of conceptual understanding: good, evil, and innocent .... so that you might actually understand how they relate to one another.

Nah ..... lemme help - here's one from Merriam-Websters online dictionary:

Innocent (def) 1 a: free from guilt or sin especially through lack of knowledge of evil

You've got the good innocents, women and children, attempting to live a peaceful life among their peaceful, law-abiding, innocent families. You've got the evil innocents, women and children, living among their evil, cruel, mass-murdering families, many of them knowing what's going on.

Yeeaah ..... well, while you have that dictionary open look this one up as well: Oxymoron

Evil innocents ?

Ya really gotta be kidding ..... seriously ...... admittedly, I, being a three time dropout (2x high school, 1x college) am not the brightest bulb out there ..... but I do have a basic understanding (albeit limited) of what common words mean ......

Someone who is themselves committing evil acts is certainly not innocent .....

Additionally , someone who knowingly helps another commit evil is not innocent .... even if they don't themselves do the actual evil themselves ..... and "expedient ignorance" (looking the other way, despite knowing that someone intends to commit evil) doesn't get ya off the hook either.

Sounds to me like your "notion" is merely an attempt to broad brush the situation and justify bad acts against all of a population, based on either their geographic location, religion, or the population within which they reside ..... irrespective of their individual culpability for a specific misdeed

Last time I looked that was called genocide .....

Better hope that you never find yourself among bad actors, lest someone more powerful than you comes along .... and makes your fate (or the ones you love and care about) the same as the doods wearin' the black hats ......

Ideally there would be no evil.

Yup - ideally, there would.

The questions becomes, if one believes that elimination of evil is a worthwhile purpose (and I surely do) how does one go about accomplishing that ? What would be the best way ?

Murder ? Mayhem ? Death ? Destruction ? War ?

Do these things lead to good ..... do they "eliminate" evil ? Or, are they themselves, the very embodiment of evil itself ?

Or Compassion ? Reason ? Logic ? Understanding perhaps ? .... maybe Love for one's fellow man ?

Sadly that will never happen.

Oh I wouldn't ever say never ..... if for no reason that adopting that viewpoint truly makes it a self-fufilling prophecy (and afterall, are not all things possible ?)

That viewpoint merely justifies and excuses an individual's failure to do those things which lead to the elimination of evil ...... and allows them to participate (directly or indirectly) in the "status quo" (IOW, the maintaining of evil)

In the absence of that impossible Utopian society we must attempt to eliminate the evil from the world we have.

Surely a worthy goal .....

However, be careful - lest your efforts only produce more of what you are trying to rid the world of .... and you find yourself swimming in it ......

If that means collateral damage to evil innocents, while not desirable, it is less objectionable than collateral damage to good innocents.

Ahhh .... now comes the justification for committing further evil (ironically, in the name of "good" ..... too funny)

Once, a righteous and wise man asked: "Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?"

As I recall, the answer - even when pressed repeatedly - was "No"

If the One who answered that question in the negative wasn't willing to sacrifice but a few righteous to eliminate some (not even all) evil men, then who is man to do so ?

I can't fault Israel for their action.

If their actions caused "collateral damage" to innocents, yeah sure - I certainly can .....

Israel has a right to their own defense - however they have no right to lives of innocents .... at the point they start killing innocents, they become no better than those who they are seeking to defend themselves from.

They, at least at this time, are the land of the good innocents, at least moreso than Gaza.

Well, either you choose to be blissfully ignorant (a thing that certainly can be reassuringly comforting) .... or just haven't studied history .... Israel has plenty of innocent blood on it's hands (and certainly, others do as well) and, as a nation, is itself no stranger to evil.

It's time to wipe as much of the evil off the planet as possible.

And now, finally for the closing act, we have the eventual insanity that results from the repeated use of justification for bad acts against one fellows:

"We's good .... they's bad ..... kill 'em all .... and let God sort 'em out ..." .... yeah .... I see a real bright shiney future going down that path and using that as a strat ...... and then after the flash, a cinder as well ..... no thanks .... I'll pass .......

Although we almost assuredly won't get rid of it all perhaps we can get rid of enough that the remainder will be weakened to ineffectiveness.

Yeah ..... you are correct about one thing - you certainly won't get rid of "all evil" .....

Good luck ...... you're gonna need it.

 

[dhalltoyo]

Peace on earth?


The Bible says, "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me." (So much for the wonderful Human Family)

Always trying to set up a kingdom here on earth.

Make yourself a note...it ain't gettin' no better until Christ shows up at the Second Advent to rule and reign for a thousand years.

Human family...murders, criminals, thieves, child molesters, perverts, dopers, terrorists, etc. None of them in my family!

Family this...family that...he's a good guy...educated...hard worker...and your point is?

God isn't really interested in how well educated a person might be or how successful, because those are worldly standards.

The Bible says, "...all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags;"


We always look good we compare ourselves amongst humanity.


The Bible says, "For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise. But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence."

The Bible says, "Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools," (Gee, they didn't even have American Idol when this was written.)

The Bible says, "...we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up,..."

Amazed that there is fighting in Gaza? I can't imagine why. The land was given to Israel over 4000 years ago. The Bible says, "In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:" (Need a map?)


And why are those of Arabic descent fighting to unjustly possess that deadly piece of dirt?


The Bible says, "And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Behold, thou art with child, and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the LORD hath heard thy affliction. And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren."


Yep..Ishmael is the beginning of Arabic nations and he is a wild man and his hand is against every man.

Nothing changes. No amount of education, charity, compassion, welfare, 12 step programs or government cheese is going to change what has already been set in motion.

The Bible says, "The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun."

 

[RLENT]

Dang i hate when that happens! 20 minutes of typing and hit a wrong key and "poof", its gone

Yup - that sux

So lets try again.

Sure, have at it .....

Lumping people together, you bet.

Yeah ... well the problem with that is, everyone one isn't the same as everyone else. People are individuals. They often have things in common, and so are in some ways similiar - but ultimately they are different.

The actual truth of any matter is usually quite specific - "the truth" does not lie in generalities.

For the most part islamic muslum experts and even the extremist themselves say that if you are a muslum and you don't condemn the actions of the extremist, you are supporting their actions

I would agree ..... as to fail to speak out against evil, is evil itself .....

and the extremist will gladly use you as an example of how they present the majority. CAIR, the Muslum Brotherhood just to name 2......

No fan of either .....

to that end, there is no moderate islamic muslums, if they don't disavow the actions of those that want to control the west and remove israel, then they are as guilty as those that kill and terrorize.

Well ..... I dunno what you mean by "islamic muslims" ..... is that any Muslim that practices Islam ? (sorta a redundant statement ....)

Its good that you are confortable in a defensive posture and capable of doing so, you might be putting that to use sooner then you think when the grand jihad is put into motion here on the soil of the US, and it will be.....

Yeah .... well, I'm not holding my breath ....

Of course, if we keep electing morons and evil men as leaders, ya never know ... I'm sure that those that lust for power over others would love to have yet another excuse to grab more power .....

I assume that your question was ..... (typo correction in caps and bold) - correct me if I misunderstood what you meant:

"Gee, you mean you WOULDN"T make an effort to save any human around you?

I mean exactly that.

"I mean they are all human right???"

Yes, they are human - and yes, that's correct - I would not necessarily act to save just any person - my help isn't "owed" - just by virtue of the fact that you happen to be drawing a breath - it's either earned - or sometimes, freely given ......

Specifically, those who are actively attempting to do the worst kinds of evil to others ..... are substantially less likely to receive any effort from this quarter.

I am a free man (to some extent at least) ..... and speaking in terms of the general population, for the most part, I don't "owe" my help to another - unless I have committed a transgression (or "sin" for lack of a better word) against them, I really don't "owe" them anything. Afterall, how can one owe something, unless there is a debt ..... ?

However, I do choose to help others at times - simply because I like to, and in my estimation it might just make the world a bit better place. Good for me, and hopefully good for most everyone ....

..... save for a relatively small number of whack-jobs who seem ****bent on doing evil to just about anyone around - these jokers seem to have deluded themselves into thinking at almost anyone is somehow a threat to their survival - when in fact, most on this planet are just trying to get along ..... and could care less ....

hey i am glad that you came out of it ok, at this point.......

Thanks.

As to me being a threat to you, only if you are a threat to me and mine......and at this point, that doesn't seem to be a facture at all....

I am no threat to you - unless you believe that someone who is for human rights, freedom, and civilized society somehow threatens your existence - if that were the case, I might be your worst enemy.

So you have no issue with removing anyone that doesn't fit your opinion of the sane productive huh?

No - that's not at all what I said - I think what I said was that I have no problem with removing those who are harming others - particularly those that are harming the sane and productive in society

My basic definition of a sane individual (without getting too complicated and philosophical) is simply this:

"An individual who is trying to do whatever it takes to survive and better his lot, and isn't harming anyone else in the process."

Generally, the folks that are doing that are of some benefit to their fellow man ..... and simply, have a value - one beyond their own individual life (..... which of course has it's own value)

It's actually pretty simple .... to the extent that one deviates off of that and gets involved in all sorts of other mischief .... well, then things get more complicated .... often with a bad result - if you doubt that ..... well then, just have a look around ......

Well its good that you aren't discriminating at all, i can appreciate that, and yeap, we are clear....

Oh no - I absolutely discriminate - never said that I didn't - discrimination is actually a very good thing. Look up the original meaning of the word - before it was co-opted by those with certain agendas to mean something else entirely .... (propaganda by the redefinition of words is a Communist tactic, sad to say it is used by many others in this day and age .....)

In essence, discriminate simply means: to differentiate. Nothing wrong with that in my book - in fact, it's a good thing - because the ability to differentiate is the basis for sanity. It is the highest faculty that man has ....

It's only when people become confused and think that one thing is the same as another (when they actually aren't) that you have a mess.

 

[RLENT]

No, not all matter, even you are willing to remove some from society when deemed not to be worthy of being amoung the "sane productive members of society", ie: "well then, ya isolate them and lock them up ....."

Big difference between removing someone from open society and putting them where they can't hurt others .... and depriving someone of their immediate physical life .... dontcha think ?

I'd actually be in favor of putting the all bad guys somewhere together - along the lines of say an island - like the old island penal system - where they can't make much mischief.

Just stick 'em on there, turn them loose, and leave them alone - let them get along as best they can - and let them spend some time with others of a similar nature as theirs. Kind like a public health issue, where you want to quarrantine the infected so they don't contaminate the healthy ....... and (bonus) essentially no low to no-cost.

It's not really meant to be a punishment as much as it is meant to be justice (the two aren't the same thing .... in fact, they aren't even remotely close ) ...... and an effective way to prevent them from harming decent folks in society - without doing the perps physical or spiritual harm. Poor souls are already bad enough off as it is .....

Problem is the wealthly and super-rich prefer to use those sorts of places as playgrounds .....

As to indiscriminatly killing the "so-called innocent", hmmm they chose to live in an area that is "indiscriminatly" bombing what some call the innocent in israel.

Many do not choose - some are born there and have little choice ....

Those Catholics are there ..... as well as roughly 3,700 other Christians ..... ya figure that it's "ok" if they are maimed, wounded, or killed - as long as Israel "takes out a few of the wackos in the process" ?

And BTW, the "area" isn't indiscriminately bombing the innocent .... people in that area are .... those are actual individuals .... they have names .... they are the bad guys. They are the correct target - not some 4 yearold child in a crib .....

BTW, "Areas" don't just do things by themselves .... unless it's something like a volcano or earthquake or something - "areas" certainly don't "fire" rockets .....

Really, the above is pretty ironic - coming from you of all people - a gun owner and a strong supporter of the 2nd amendment - it's real, real similar to saying:

"Guns kill people" - when we all know that isn't even remotely true - People kill people - if they didn't use a gun, it would just be something else.

I mean 1310 rocket fired into populated areas of israel from jan 2008 till dec 21st 2008 would seem to lead most people that sooner or later, the other side is going to make a effort to return fire...

I'm sure that is on minds of many on at least a daily, if not a constant, basis ....

so those that stay, well if they live there, they might die there,

So - would you be in favor of offering asylum to those that wanted no part of what is going on there and wished to leave ?

that seems to be what we see happening now, and it will get worse...

Not a foregone conclusion .... however, there's little doubt however that it can be made to get worse ....

One only needs to ask a simple question for a little light to be shed on the subject: "Who stands to profit from that ?"

The return of fire, isn't indiscriminate, its defense of your country and position...

Sorry - but any fire that isn't directly and knowingly targeted at a specific individual is indiscriminate - look up the definition of the word - afterall, it is your native language (I would assume .....) - own it, make it yours - rather than just using it glibly.

Aside from the fact of directly targeting a specific individual, some weapons are, by their very nature, indiscriminate - but having been in "Nam I am sure you are aware of that ..... or certainly should be .....

 

[RLENT]

They are part of a religion, a region and a polictical party that wishes to do harm to israel and the "west"..

You mean the Catholics .... or the Greek Orthodox ?

I thought them and the Hebrews pretty much buried that hatchet awhile back ....

so if they stay (and i have no idea, but im pretty sure no one is there against their will) chances of them dying, is pretty good..

That's right - you don't really know ..... you freely admit: you really have no idea .....

Not everyone in gaza is arming or helping muslim extremist...

Exactly my point .....

that goes back to the no moderates, if you ain't comdemnong them, you are supporting them ......

Yup - it would be "a sin of ommission" ..... one that those who failed to speak up will ultimately have to answer for .... but it doesn't necessarily make them as evil as someone (on whichever side) firing a rocket at an unarmed populace however.

It's that "everything isn't the same as everything else" thang ....

Of course, on the otherhand, there is something to be said for keeping one's head down, working behind the scenes, and living to fight another day ... something about the meek inheriting the earth I think .....

LOL the catholics in gaza... yea all 300 of them ....... but yes my statement was a generalization, my bad

Yeah - it was - the problem is you said - and apparently meant - it. When I asked who should be "wiped out", you answered:

"Everyone in the Gaza strip, including with women and children, live there, die there... its just that simple ..... <snip> ... I have no reason to feel anything for them, other then to rid the world of them .... <snip> ..... So if Israel wants to move that along, more power to them."

My "snips" in quoting you above are the removal of what I deemed to be irrelevant material to the point you were trying to make. I got the point - 5 by 5.

While I am no fan of political correctness - you are free to hold any political views which seem right to you (no matter how abhorrent I, or anyone else, may find them) and you are are certainly free to to express them, and I'm more than happy to debate them with you, you very might be well served to at least consider the matter of diplomacy and professionalism - for by displaying the name of your carrier in your sig line, you are representing them with every post you make .... whether you are really aware of it or not .....

My guess is that your carrier (which just happens to mine as well) might not wish to have their good name be associated with some of the concepts you seem to espouse (mostly just the women and children thing .... the killing of the innocents .... and all that)

Dunno ..... I could be wrong about this .... but if I had to guess .... mebbe not .....

 

[RLENT]

Peace on earth? The Bible says, "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword."

"For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household."

"He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me."

.... yes ..... as you say ..... "more than me" .... that is important .....

However, I don't take anything in the scripture above to be a prohibition to loving one's fellow man .....

In fact, was it not said:

"For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another. .... For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. ..... But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another."

and

"Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away ..... Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy .... But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you."

Interestingly, the passages you quote above are from Matthew (no ?) - where Jesus has told the disciples to go out - specifically unto the "lost sheep of the house of Israel" (and directly admonished them "go not into the way of the Gentiles, and any cities of the Samaritans enter ye not") and told them to inform the children of Israel of what awaits them ...... should they fail to head the call ....

So what was your point what exactly - that Jesus came to set the Israelites against one another ?

How exactly does that apply to the current situation between the state of Israel and the Palestinians ?

So much for the wonderful Human Family

I didn't read anywhere in that passage that you quoted above was it was meant to apply to the entire family of man ...... at least when I read it in it's entirety, in context with the remainder of the scripture it was part of .... the part that you conveniently failed to mention ...... because it apparently didn't suit your purposes ....

Always trying to set up a kingdom here on earth.

Sorry ..... no interest in a "kingdom" here on earth .....

(not to trivialize the matter, but in the interests of a little levity: I would have thought that that would have been rather obvious - afterall, I am expediting - not much chance of "kingdom" there ..... )

One should understand that man is not entirely a physical being (ie earth), but spiritual in nature (not earth) as well - the spirit transcends the physical does it not ?

Was it not said:

"Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come."

"Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit."

"O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh. ...... A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things."

"But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. ... For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned."

 

[hdxpedx]

Hamas(Iran) provoked with rockets not peace! Now Israel has provoked back to the HATE leadership of IRAN-pc correction THE peace Loving IRAN LEADERSHIP-thru HAMAS- looking for the fight before the messiha takes office!! CKECK MATE! Obumer Obumer HELP Obumer Iranian group registers volunteers to fight Israel

 

[Tennesseahawk]

JMO... anyone who knows Hamas is using them as human shields should expect nothing less than death. Notice I didn't say DESERVES death. Do I feel badly for them? Yes. Many of them just want peace. But they are pawns of the pawns who would see a race destroyed. Of course a number of these ppl will get killed. What do they expect when the aggressors are hiding among the populous? Hard to feel sorry for stupid ppl.

 

[Pilgrim]

It seems that almost every article from the MSM about the Israeli attacks on Gaza focuses on the death and suffering of the Hamas and Palestinian victims, especially drawing attention to the innocents and the children. In one extensive piece from the AP dated Dec 28, only one small paragraph tucked away in the middle of the writing happens to mention the following fact:

"The offensive began eight days after a six-month truce between Israel and the militants expired. The Israeli army says Palestinian militants have fired more than 300 rockets and mortars at Israeli targets over the past week, and 10 times that number over the past year."

TDS - News

Nobody seems to recognize the continual harassment, deaths and destruction that Israel suffers at the hands of these barbarians who for some inexplicable reason have the sympathy of the international media. It's common knowledge that terrorist groups like Hamas set up their operational positions among thickly populated areas of civilians, store munitions in schools, mosques and hospitals and take refuge behind human shields comprised of women and children. This tactic has proven to be successful when dealing with the politically correct Americans, and it's time we applauded the Israeli military for not caving to this type of cowardice. If the Palestinian population tolerates and provides shelter for the Hamas terrorists, they should suffer the price for this collusion - remember, they elected this group of thugs as their ruling party. If Hamas hides themselves and their assets amoung women and children, it's their responsibility when these civilians get killed - not the Israelis'.

The Israelis have shown remarkable restraint in dealing with these terrorists, and this type of response is long overdue. They should ignore the outcry of the UN and the other Muslim nations and continue to vigorously attack the Hamas positions until they're wiped out or defeated. Regarding the civilians casualties, I'm reminded of a T-shirt that was popular during the Viet Nam war: to paraphrase the message - "Kill 'em all, let Allah sort 'em out".

 

[RLENT]

JMO... anyone who knows Hamas is using them as human shields should expect nothing less than death.

I would rather imagine it is the case that many of them do expect nothing less than death.

Of course, it just might be that when a man (a human, if you will) is continually in a state such as that, it does things to him (or her) .... the concepts of utter hopelessness and despair come to mind fairly quickly .....

Notice I didn't say DESERVES death.

Yes ...... I did notice.

Do I feel badly for them? Yes.

Good for you ..... at least you are still alive then ..... and are not among the walking dead (..... those that have so little compassion for their fellow man that they literally cannot feel not a single thing for them .....)

Many of them just want peace.

Of that, I have little doubt ..... many just want peace ..... just want to be left alone ..... be able to just get along ..... raise a family ..... and live life.

Interestingly, it seems that these desires seem to be common among most peoples ..... just might be due to something that is inherent in their nature .....

But they are pawns of the pawns who would see a race destroyed.

Many people ...... in many places ..... are but pawns of others.

It is one thing to know it ..... it is quite another to be able to figure out something effective that one can do about it.

Of course a number of these ppl will get killed. What do they expect when the aggressors are hiding among the populous?

Indeed ..... let us just hope that we never find ourselves where there are aggressors hiding among us ..... and we thereby become "collateral damage" .......

Hmmmm .... lemme think about that for a moment .... aggressors hiding among us .... become collateral damage ..... yes, now I think I do understand.

Hard to feel sorry for stupid ppl.

On the onehand I see your point ..... on the otherhand ......

Not really ..... because sometimes the stupid are the easiest to feel sorry for ...

Personally, I find it more hard to feel sorry for the smarter ones ..... you know .... the ones that ought to know better ..... but despite of knowing better still persist ..... and then scream like a stuck pig, when called to account ......

 

[OntarioVanMan]

News flash.....3 Terrorist cells found in Cook County Ill....instead of door to door fighting the military leveled the county and 200 U.S civilians dead from "collateral damage" Oh well crap happens...

Would you sing the same song if it were your own citizens being "collateral damage"