Welfare, the next sequel

Status
Not open for further replies.

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
I used the opportunity to point out the hypocrisy which addressed the post, not just as a personal attack.
In order to point out hypocrisy, you had to bring something from outside this thread into the thread.There was no hypocrisy in her post in this thread.

Ragman took exception by stating his opinion without attacking the poster but the other post clearly was an attack.
Actually Rags' post comes far closer to a personal attack than anything in Cheri's post.

You have no problem with the personal attacks on Leo then for what reason?
That's both a false premise (in fact a "When did you stop beating your wife?" loaded question fallacy) and a rather ignorant one. What I personally have a problem with is irrelevant, it's all about whether or not a post violates the Code of Conduct.

Do we just say I disagree with the story and then go off on a tangent with personal attacks and it's fine?
I wouldn't recommend it. But before you try that, I think you should probably learn the difference between disagreement and attack, as well as an opinion about what was said versus opinion about who said it. You should also learn the difference between "That's stupid" and "You're stupid."

On one hand you seem to be saying be respectful but then when there is a member that is constantly disrespectful and goes off with personal attacks you never say a word. Now when someone gets sick of it and treats that member with the same level of courtesy shown to others you decide to go after that member.
Not there's an excellent example of the pot complaining about the kettle. It's not really your job here to decide how people should be treated. Like I said, if you have a problem with a post, report it, rather than taking on the job of moderator yourself. You're beginning to come off looking like someone who is stalking Cheri, looking for any opportunity to pounce on her posts and insult her.

If you have a problem with something Cheri posts, then either send her a private message or report the post as violating the Code of Conduct, instead of attacking her in public. It's really THAT simple.

I am simply saying that if you are saying that to me that it needs to be very clearly stated to the member that constantly starts the attacks on others. Why are you directing things at me? The attacks have been going on by this other member for awhile unchallenged by you. Why is that?
Now you're whining instead of being responsible for your own actions. How I and the other moderators do our jobs really isn't up for discussion, but Cheri's comments have been discussed in private, actually. and I'm directing this at you in public, because of everything I stating in Post #7.

Since you want to see me do my job in a less casual and more official manner, you got it.
 

paullud

Veteran Expediter
In order to point out hypocrisy, you had to bring something from outside this thread into the thread.There was no hypocrisy in her post in this thread.

Yes, and you do that too so again it's following an accepted behavior.

Actually Rags' post comes far closer to a personal attack than anything in Cheri's post.

That's both a false premise (in fact a "When did you stop beating your wife?" loaded question fallacy) and a rather ignorant one. What I personally have a problem with is irrelevant, it's all about whether or not a post violates the Code of Conduct.

The almost exact same words were used by one member as mine. Both my post and the other were directed at the poster but yet we see the difference in response from you. Oddly enough you have a history of defending that same member when they get in too deep.

I wouldn't recommend it. But before you try that, I think you should probably learn the difference between disagreement and attack, as well as an opinion about what was said versus opinion about who said it. You should also learn the difference between "That's stupid" and "You're stupid."

I know the difference and telling someone that they are as obtuse as the link that they posted is a personal insult.

Not there's an excellent example of the pot complaining about the kettle. It's not really your job here to decide how people should be treated. Like I said, if you have a problem with a post, report it, rather than taking on the job of moderator yourself. You're beginning to come off looking like someone who is stalking Cheri, looking for any opportunity to pounce on her posts and insult her.

It's simply engaging in a debate and if you want to set a standard then set a standard. Why does she comment on my posts and use personal attacks? Have you told her to stop stalking me? It's a forum where debate happens and if there is a disagreement then there is likely to be more debate between those members. Other members disagree with me but yet the debate stays at a certain level because they don't have to resort to personal attacks and being disrespectful.

If you have a problem with something Cheri posts, then either send her a private message or report the post as violating the Code of Conduct, instead of attacking her in public. It's really THAT simple.

The purpose of an open forum is to debate in public. If people want a certain level of respect then they should treat the other person with that same respect. I guess if she has a problem with what I or another member posts then she needs to stop with the personal attacks and follow your advice.

Now you're whining instead of being responsible for your own actions. How I and the other moderators do our jobs really isn't up for discussion, but Cheri's comments have been discussed in private, actually. and I'm directing this at you in public, because of everything I stating in Post #7.

Since you want to see me do my job in a less casual and more official manner, you got it.

It's not whining and I accept full responsibility for what I have said. Yet again we see you handle her with kid gloves and set a different standard. You decide to bring this up in the open instead of addressing it in a PM but for her you address it "privately". It seems like there might be something more going on here.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
Yes, and you do that too so again it's following an accepted behavior.
Be very careful in accusing me of things I don't do. I make it a point to not bring things in from other threads to use as ammunition in an argument, and never to use it to attack someone with. On the extremely rare occasions that I have done it, it's always with a direct reference so as to keep things in the proper context.

The almost exact same words were used by one member as mine. Both my post and the other were directed at the poster but yet we see the difference in response from you. Oddly enough you have a history of defending that same member when they get in too deep.
Cheri's comments were directed at the poster, but hers was not an attack. Yours was.

And again, be careful of accusing me of doing something I haven't done. I do not have a history of defending that same member when they get in too deep. I go by the Code of Conduct.

I know the difference and telling someone that they are as obtuse as the link that they posted is a personal insult.
No, I don 't think you do, because nowhere in this thread has Cheri said anyone is obtuse. You're the only person in this thread to do that, and you did it to make something up to use as ammunition in attacking a member. And calling someone obtuse on a particular subject is hardly an attack, it's an opinion. In any case, none of that happened in this thread, so there's no reason to bring it up here (unless, of course, you need it for ammunition in an attack).

It's simply engaging in a debate and if you want to set a standard then set a standard. Why does she comment on my posts and use personal attacks? Have you told her to stop stalking me? It's a forum where debate happens and if there is a disagreement then there is likely to be more debate between those members. Other members disagree with me but yet the debate stays at a certain level because they don't have to resort to personal attacks and being disrespectful.
Calling someone names and insulting them is a style of debate that violates the Code of Conduct, and if you continue to debate in that manner it will not go well for you. As for my private conversations with her, I will not discuss those here with you.

The purpose of an open forum is to debate in public. If people want a certain level of respect then they should treat the other person with that same respect. I guess if she has a problem with what I or another member posts then she needs to stop with the personal attacks and follow your advice.
You keep accusing her of personal attacks, but there simply isn't any personal attacks from her in this thread.

It's not whining and I accept full responsibility for what I have said.
As long as you keep saying, "Well she does it tooooo," then you aren't taking responsibility for your actions, you're whining.

Yet again we see you handle her with kid gloves and set a different standard. You decide to bring this up in the open instead of addressing it in a PM but for her you address it "privately". It seems like there might be something more going on here.
There is no "yet again" because I haven't in the past nor am I now handling her with kid gloves. I've already told you why I decided to bring it up in public here, it's because you opened that door by, again, everything I said in Post #7, and by trying to rationalize and justify it in public. As for discussing it with her privately, I haven't said a word to her about it publicly or privately. Her posts have been discussed privately, but as far as I know she hasn't been a part of the discussion. You really should worry more about your own actions instead of worrying about what other may or may not be doing.
 

cheri1122

Veteran Expediter
Driver
It's weird how that statement applies to you by substituting liberals. The pot is complaining about the kettle.


There are dozens of posts calling liberals names, simply because they are liberal. Is there a single solitary post calling people names because they are religious?
The rest of my post was not an "attack on Leo", it was an observation on the number and type of posts that offer nothing constructive whatsoever. If some feel singled out by that, I make no apology, because I was responding to the post, not the poster.
The post in question was especially egregious, because the subject is a clearly demented person, and not the average person on government assistance. And the comment that "someone will come along to defend the system" was just laughable, seeing as the system in question is Great Britain's, so who gives a flying fig?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Ragman

paullud

Veteran Expediter
Be very careful in accusing me of things I don't do. I make it a point to not bring things in from other threads to use as ammunition in an argument, and never to use it to attack someone with. On the extremely rare occasions that I have done it, it's always with a direct reference so as to keep things in the proper context.

So you seem to say that you don't bring up things from other threads but then go on to say that you do but you keep it in context? You mean like accusing someone of being prejudice based on previous posts when it had nothing to do with the thread?

Cheri's comments were directed at the poster, but hers was not an attack. Yours was.

That's your opinion, but now I know that telling someone "the endless sniping and namecalling aimed at *****[based on nothing but clickbait outrage 'stories'] is insulting and uncalled for. And way past tiresome and immature. And sad and bitter, too." or something along those lines next time I don't agree is fine. I'm not sure how that couldn't be viewed as an attack. It is directed at the poster, off topic, and brings up stuff from other threads. Oddly enough that's what you are complaining about me doing.

And again, be careful of accusing me of doing something I haven't done. I do not have a history of defending that same member when they get in too deep. I go by the Code of Conduct.

You absolutely have and I remember it being an issue brought up before.

No, I don 't think you do, because nowhere in this thread has Cheri said anyone is obtuse. You're the only person in this thread to do that, and you did it to make something up to use as ammunition in attacking a member. And calling someone obtuse on a particular subject is hardly an attack, it's an opinion. In any case, none of that happened in this thread, so there's no reason to bring it up here (unless, of course, you need it for ammunition in an attack).

She brought up posts that had nothing to do with this thread to go off on a tangent and direct comments at the poster. I brought up the other comments because it is a pattern that has developed, just like some people that go after liberals have a pattern.

Calling someone names and insulting them is a style of debate that violates the Code of Conduct, and if you continue to debate in that manner it will not go well for you. As for my private conversations with her, I will not discuss those here with you.

Right. So she has no history of doing just that? I really don't want to know about your private conversations with her. That's your personal life but it makes sense that you would go after someone that replies likewise to her remarks rather than her.

You keep accusing her of personal attacks, but there simply isn't any personal attacks from her in this thread.

She brought up posts from other threads and made her point that she was tired of him liberal bashing. I did the same.

As long as you keep saying, "Well she does it tooooo," then you aren't taking responsibility for your actions, you're whining.

Maybe if you didn't try to read things like that it would make more sense. Read them as written. There was a pattern set that I followed. That doesn't mean that I am not taking responsibility it means that I followed an established pattern and explaining why I thought it was OK.

There is no "yet again" because I haven't in the past nor am I now handling her with kid gloves. I've already told you why I decided to bring it up in public here, it's because you opened that door by, again, everything I said in Post #7, and by trying to rationalize and justify it in public. As for discussing it with her privately, I haven't said a word to her about it publicly or privately. Her posts have been discussed privately, but as far as I know she hasn't been a part of the discussion. You really should worry more about your own actions instead of worrying about what other may or may not be doing.

There is a history of it but you can deny it if you want. I really don't care if you address it publicly but it just seems that you would develop a pattern to avoid confusion. I felt the door was opened for my comment based on her comment. Her comment was directed at the poster and brought up posts from other threads. My comment did the exact same thing but you want to call it an attack. I simply pointed out that the same thing was being done by her. That's not an attack but simply pointing out an observation that seemed funny. There was no name calling or personal insults.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
So you seem to say that you don't bring up things from other threads but then go on to say that you do but you keep it in context?
Not exactly, no. As a general rule I don't bring in stuff from other threads. It's very rare if I do. I try my best to make it a point not to, because unless all readers at all times are familiar with those other threads, it makes no sense to do so. It's the exception to the rule when I do that, and I do it not to attack someone. But on the rare occasions I may do it, it's (virtually) always within the context of the current topic of discussion.

You mean like accusing someone of being prejudice based on previous posts when it had nothing to do with the thread?
No, I accused someone of being prejudice based on their own words in that current thread, and referenced additional threads as a pattern of prejudice. I didn't launch an attack on anyone using information from an outside thread.

That's your opinion...,
Yes, it is my opinion, as well as the opinion of the others who enforce the Code of Conduct.

but now I know that telling someone "the endless sniping and namecalling aimed at *****[based on nothing but clickbait outrage 'stories'] is insulting and uncalled for. And way past tiresome and immature. And sad and bitter, too." or something along those lines next time I don't agree is fine.
That's Cheri's opinion. And there's no attack on anybody in that quote. The endless sniping and namecalling aimed at liberals is, according to the Code of Conduct, trolling. Trolling is, for many people, insulting, uncalled for, tiresome and immature and sad and bitter. What's your point?

I'm not sure how that couldn't be viewed as an attack. It is directed at the poster, off topic, and brings up stuff from other threads. Oddly enough that's what you are complaining about me doing.
I'm not sure how it could possibly be viewed as an attack, since in order for it to be an attack it has to be an aggressive action. There's nothing aggressive in her post. And nothing in it brings up "stuff" from other threads. All she did was note a repeated pattern of that type of posts by the poster. She didn't reference anything specific and then use it to attack (remember, aggressive in nature) the poster. You, on the other hand, put words in her mouth and then used those words to attack her.

You absolutely have and I remember it being an issue brought up before.
OK, fine. Post three links to posts that I made to defend Cheri when she got in too deep and I didn't follow the Code of Conduct. Otherwise you're just flapping your gums in a pissing contest with a Moderator.

She brought up posts that had nothing to do with this thread to go off on a tangent and direct comments at the poster.
Which posts, exactly, did she bring up?

I brought up the other comments because it is a pattern that has developed, just like some people that go after liberals have a pattern.
Referencing other threads is fine, but referencing them as ammunition to attack someone simply because you don't like their posting style or what they post is an aggressive action which violates the Code of Conduct.

Right. So she has no history of doing just that? I really don't want to know about your private conversations with her. That's your personal life but it makes sense that you would go after someone that replies likewise to her remarks rather than her.
Your reply violated the Code of Conduct. Hers did not.

She brought up posts from other threads and made her point that she was tired of him liberal bashing. I did the same.
Again, which posts, exactly, did she bring up and use to attack Leo? See, no matter how many times you say she brought up stuff from other posts, it won't make it true.

Maybe if you didn't try to read things like that it would make more sense. Read them as written. There was a pattern set that I followed. That doesn't mean that I am not taking responsibility it means that I followed an established pattern and explaining why I thought it was OK.
Oh, I read them as written. You wrote them to rationalize and justify ("why I thought it was OK") to attack an EO member.

There is a history of it but you can deny it if you want.
You made an accusation without proof. The burden of proof is on you. It may be your opinion that I treat her with kid gloves, and that's fine, just don't state it as fact. Particularly as it's not true.

I really don't care if you address it publicly but it just seems that you would develop a pattern to avoid confusion. I felt the door was opened for my comment based on her comment. Her comment was directed at the poster and brought up posts from other threads. My comment did the exact same thing but you want to call it an attack. I simply pointed out that the same thing was being done by her. That's not an attack but simply pointing out an observation that seemed funny. There was no name calling or personal insults.
See what happens when people reply to the poster instead of staying on topic and replying to the post? We get 25 posts of pure crap and a member gets a Point Infraction that could lead to a lengthy ban. There's no reason for it. Whenever you go off-topic to attack a member, nothing good ever comes of it. It takes up screen and server space and wastes the time of Moderators and Administrators. You attract the wrong kind of attention from Moderators so that now your future posts will be more closely scrutinized to see if they can be construed as an attack, regardless of whether they were or not, all because you want to give Cheri a hard time for some reason that's beyond us all.

Cheri (as many people have) has made some pretty "out there" comments, and has gotten things wrong. Yes, it can be annoying when in the middle of a discussion on Pop Tart Guns she brings up CEO salaries and corporate welfare and the lack of high quality childcare on board F-16 fighter jets. There's nothing wrong in addressing those comments. You can even do it using snarky comments. Just stick to the issues.
 

cheri1122

Veteran Expediter
Driver
Ok, when it comes to the F-16 fighter jets, I guess I am in too deep - I promise not to do that again. :sorry:
 

paullud

Veteran Expediter
Not exactly, no. As a general rule I don't bring in stuff from other threads. It's very rare if I do. I try my best to make it a point not to, because unless all readers at all times are familiar with those other threads, it makes no sense to do so. It's the exception to the rule when I do that, and I do it not to attack someone. But on the rare occasions I may do it, it's (virtually) always within the context of the current topic of discussion.

She made the current discussion a posters past threads. I addressed it.

That's Cheri's opinion. And there's no attack on anybody in that quote. The endless sniping and namecalling aimed at liberals is, according to the Code of Conduct, trolling. Trolling is, for many people, insulting, uncalled for, tiresome and immature and sad and bitter. What's your point?

The endless attacks on religion, CEO's, and conservatives is the exact same thing. I addressed the topic that was brought up by the poster. It was not some random insult.

I'm not sure how it could possibly be viewed as an attack, since in order for it to be an attack it has to be an aggressive action. There's nothing aggressive in her post. And nothing in it brings up "stuff" from other threads. All she did was note a repeated pattern of that type of posts by the poster. She didn't reference anything specific and then use it to attack (remember, aggressive in nature) the poster. You, on the other hand, put words in her mouth and then used those words to attack her.

She brought up every post where he was against liberals, not specifically but in general. I did the exact same thing in my post. All I did was note a repeated pattern of posts as well but yet here we are. I didn't put words in her mouth because clearly the quote was altered by me and I never claimed that she said it. My post was no more aggressive than her's because I simply changed one word to make it apply to the poster. I didn't attack at all. I pointed out that she also does the same thing, that's not an attack.

OK, fine. Post three links to posts that I made to defend Cheri when she got in too deep and I didn't follow the Code of Conduct. Otherwise you're just flapping your gums in a pissing contest with a Moderator.

I didn't say that you didn't follow the COC in those posts.

Referencing other threads is fine, but referencing them as ammunition to attack someone simply because you don't like their posting style or what they post is an aggressive action which violates the Code of Conduct.

I brought up the posting pattern to say that she does the same thing. That does not make it an attack. It was simply pointing out an opinion just as her post did.

Your reply violated the Code of Conduct. Hers did not.

Well we both seem to agree that she was addressing the poster and not the post which my comment did as well so that isn't the COC issue. I used the same words with the exception of one to give my opinion about the poster which she did as well. The only difference is that I was directly addressing a comment that was made where her comment was brought up for no other reason than not liking his posting style or what he says. (See above comment)

See what happens when people reply to the poster instead of staying on topic and replying to the post? We get 25 posts of pure crap and a member gets a Point Infraction that could lead to a lengthy ban.

So we are back to the original point that I made. Direct your complaints about replying to the post instead of the poster to her. That's where it started so that's where your issues should be directed first. As for the point infraction, meh. It is what it is and whatever happens I'm fine with.

You attract the wrong kind of attention from Moderators so that now your future posts will be more closely scrutinized to see if they can be construed as an attack, regardless of whether they were or not, all because you want to give Cheri a hard time for some reason that's beyond us all.

Just because one poster makes completely incorrect claims a lot doesn't mean that anyone is out to get them simply because they correct them. In a forum that will have debates you are going to debate people that you disagree with and not ones that you do. The conversation ends pretty quick when everyone agrees but where there is disagreement it can be much more lengthy and frequent. As I already stated I have pointed out things that were left out of a story or incorrect by other members as well so no it's not an evil plan.

Cheri (as many people have) has made some pretty "out there" comments, and has gotten things wrong. Yes, it can be annoying when in the middle of a discussion on Pop Tart Guns she brings up CEO salaries and corporate welfare and the lack of high quality childcare on board F-16 fighter jets. There's nothing wrong in addressing those comments. You can even do it using snarky comments. Just stick to the issues.

I addressed the comment that was made and the issue that was brought up by that poster.
 

cheri1122

Veteran Expediter
Driver
Just because one poster makes completely incorrect claims a lot doesn't mean that anyone is out to get them simply because they correct them. In a forum that will have debates you are going to debate people that you disagree with and not ones that you do. The conversation ends pretty quick when everyone agrees but where there is disagreement it can be much more lengthy and frequent. As I already stated I have pointed out things that were left out of a story or incorrect by other members as well so no it's not an evil plan.

There it is again: the assertion that "one poster makes completely incorrect claims a lot". That is your opinion, and it is unsubstantiated by facts, but repeated multiple times. That's out of line, period.
 

LDB

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Oh I believe we have some who would definitely defend it. Probably not directly and overtly, but by redirecting toward evil business or evil military or something else and casually suggesting we shouldn't be talking about welfare reform much less considering it. After all, none of those poor people are exploiting or taking advantage of the system. :rolleyes:
 

Dreamer

Administrator Emeritus
Charter Member
I think we're done with this one, enough warnings.

Train, derailed,


Thread closed... Anything further will result in a vacation.



Dale
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top