USAF Lt. Col: Bradley Manning has rights!

AMonger

Veteran Expediter
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Brad Manning Has Rights![/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif] by Karen Kwiatkowski[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]At the culminating point of the movie A Few Good Men, Colonel Jessup, played magnificently by Jack Nicholson, angrily tells the truth and shockingly incriminates himself. The interrogating lawyer LT Daniel Kaffee (Tom Cruise), in his moment of victory, refuses to gloat. Instead, he abruptly ends his interrogation and demands that rule of law prevail, saying, "The defendant has rights!"[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]The famous courtroom scenes from this movie are well-known and oft-quoted by many Americans. A Few Good Men is formulaic, but it is the formula we particularly love – proud patriots who believe in right and wrong, in black and white, in law over lawlessness, Davids who fight a powerful Goliath. Against all odds, eventually our heroes win when the powerful and vindicating truth is revealed for all to see.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]In another time, this would be the story of Bradley Manning. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]A Few Good Men dramatically exposes the deformation and distortion of right and wrong that is the very demand of state utilitarianism, which is to say, an action is right if is promotes the state’s happiness, and an action is wrong if it tends to make the state unhappy. Colonel Jessup called for the harsh physical punishment of a "substandard Marine" and thus Corporal Santiago was killed by his comrades. The state, represented by Jessup, explains, "…Santiago’s death, while tragic, probably saved lives…."[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Charged but not convicted of any crime, American PFC Brad Manning is being held largely incommunicado at Quantico, without bedding or permission to exercise in his cell. He is purposely deprived of human contact. His current treatment – based on unproven charges – is far harsher than the treatment and sentences of four famous and convicted US federal-level spies.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Former FBI agent Robert Hanssen was arrested in early 2001, and charged with selling secrets to the Soviets during the preceding two decades. Upon arrest, Hanssen confessed and was able to hire as an attorney the extremely competent Plato Cacheris, who negotiated a plea bargain. After an entire career spent profiting from the sale of classified information to the Soviets and later the Russian Federation, he is held at Supermax in isolation. Well, not exactly like Brad Manning – Hanssen has bedding, books, and exercise. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif] The case of career CIA employee and horrific spy/profiteer, Aldrich Ames, is also instructive. After his arrest and lawyer-facilitated plea bargain, Ames was not held forever in isolation at a Supermax-style facility. Instead, he resides at Allenwood Federal Prison with the general population, and is able to receive visitors and to correspond with people outside the prison on issues of current interest.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Two other famous convicted federal-level spies of the same era include Army Warrant Officer James Hall and Army Colonel George Trofimoff. These military officers who sold secrets were not tortured, nor were they deprived of their constitutional rights to a fair defense. Even though they are convicted military spies, they are serving less intensive punishments than either Ames or Hanssen, and were treated far better than PFC Manning. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif] Manning is not accused of selling secrets, or profiting from their release. Washington has made charges; it suspects Manning is partly responsible for publicly embarrassing the federal security apparatus. But as the Pentagon and the State Department both admit, even if Manning was the source of some government documents, the revelations did not seriously impact government operations. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif] What has changed? Is Brad Manning thought by government to be a different kind of criminal? Has what he is alleged to have done more evil, more dangerous, more damaging than previous crimes, or even the crimes he may have exposed? Or is it Americans themselves who have changed, with a new 21st century sangfroid? [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif] The Constitution languishes and the state has surged since 9/11. Americans, by and large, still accept the strawmen arguments for giving up their liberty. The modern American is afflicted, not blessed, with an overgrown and paranoid state, as this timeline of the evolution of solitary confinement in the land of the free and the home of the brave illustrates. Administrative lockdown – torture really – is the new black in the fashion of American governance, and many Americans politely applaud it.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Bradley Manning’s incarceration has been clearly designed to punish, to threaten, and to pressure him, and to frighten thousands of others who have access to records of government criminality and idiocy, and may be having pangs of conscience. To date, Manning has not confessed or plead guilty to any crime, despite months of pressure by his military-appointed defense team (only recently replaced by civilian attorney David Coombs). He is deprived of pillow and sheets as an apparent means of coercing some testimony that would help the government create a separate case against the Australian Julian Assange and Wikileaks.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Keeping secrets – shutting down critics and eliminating public dissent – is the lifeblood of the state, and a reliable marker of totalitarianism. The mistreatment of Brad Manning while in military custody continues. As with others before him, Manning may be permanently physically and psychologically damaged before it’s over. This calculated destruction of a real human being is no accident. It is a widely practiced technique of despotic government at any level – whether in a disturbed family, in a prison or mental hospital, or by a government ostensibly put in place through a democratic process. Despotic government is sustained by silence, by blindness, by fear. It is destroyed by shared truth, by open eyes, and by a few courageous souls to lead the way.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Thus, Brad Manning is made out to be a different kind of criminal, one far more deadly to the state than international spies, profiteers, murderers and cheats. He angered the state when he exposed a few of its many crimes. Instead of thanking Brad Manning for revealing weaknesses in their secret-keeping mechanisms – the state became enraged and violent, and now demands his moral and spiritual destruction. Inseparable from Washington’s call for Brad Manning’s continued torture and deprivation of rights is Washington’s public political cheerleading for the detention and death of Australian Julian Assange. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]The state believes that Brad Manning’s death, though tragic, will save lives of those the state deems valuable. Washington believes that Julian Assange’s death, while unfortunate, is necessary to maintain good order and discipline among the ruled. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]The state indeed is at fault, but at least the US government assaults on Brad Manning, and on Julian Assange, are battles for nothing less than its own survival. If we do not believe in the state, we cannot be ruled by it. This is the fundamental lesson of the rise and fall of empires, from Rome to the Soviet Union. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]In A Few Good Men, Lt Kaffee battled state-utilitarianism, in the face of near certain public humiliation, the almost certain end of his career, and the extreme likelihood of professional and personal failure. When he rose to the challenge, and took a great risk to do the right thing, the audience felt a rush of pride, cheering his achievement, and sharing a real sense of what we like to think it means to be an American. Brad Manning is both the hero in our modern story, as well as the defendant. If we as Americans cannot cheer him, because we are numb, fearful, afraid, and have forgotten our principles, at the very least we must be able to stand up and loudly proclaim, "The defendant has rights!"[/FONT]
 

LDB

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
I'd say he has the choice of a bullet or a rope. The other traitors mentioned in the article should be getting the same choice also, not what they are getting.
 

AMonger

Veteran Expediter
I'd say he has the choice of a bullet or a rope.
Hmmm... think we should give him a trial first, or just storm the sheriff's office, break him out and string him up? And would it be just a show trial, or should we wait for a conviction? I don't know about you (actually, I do, based on what you've posted on the matter), but perhaps we shouldn't be too hasty about disposing of the Bill of Rights. You might need those rights some day.

Remember the parody of Nazi justice on Hogan's Heroes and others? "You vill be tried in court, und zen you vill be shot!"

You realize what they're doing with him in jail now is punishing him before he's even had a trial, let alone a conviction, right? Should the cops do that to you if you're ever arrested, and if so, should anyone object?
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
He has rights under UCMJ and will, and should, be tried by the military. Then, IF convicted under UCMJ, should be shot. ANYONE who is convicted of treason should be shot, regardless of their station in life.
 

Pilgrim

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
He has the right to a speedy trial in a military courtroom. If found guilty, a more appropriate punishment for this particular individual would be spending the rest of his life at a maximum security prison living with the general population.

On another note, it's almost funny to witness the evolution of the definition of torture from the perspective of these bleating liberals.
 

LDB

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
I'd say he has the choice of a bullet or a rope if convicted. (I foolishly presumed the common sense to be applied and the if convicted to be understood without being included.) The other traitors mentioned in the article, and already convicted, (again adequate common sense presumed) should be getting the same choice also, not what they are getting.
 

AMonger

Veteran Expediter
He has the right to a speedy trial in a military courtroom. If found guilty, a more appropriate punishment for this particular individual would be spending the rest of his life at a maximum security prison living with the general population.

On another note, it's almost funny to witness the evolution of the definition of torture from the perspective of these bleating liberals.
I read stuff by a bunch of liberals on this forum. I'm not one of them. I'm a socially conservative libertarian. We libertarians, who love the Bill of Rights, believe, among other things, that pre-trial confinement is to ensure the accused shows up in court, not to punish. And punishing is what the government is doing now to Bradley Manning.

The defendant has rights.
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
I read stuff by a bunch of liberals on this forum. I'm not one of them. I'm a socially conservative libertarian. We libertarians, who love the Bill of Rights, believe, among other things, that pre-trial confinement is to ensure the accused shows up in court, not to punish. And punishing is what the government is doing now to Bradley Manning.

The defendant has rights.

The defendant has rights under UCMJ. I have no idea where this artical came from. If it is accurate. It is editorial and therfore suspect. I have no idea if Manning is a flight risk. If a general court marshal finds him innocent he should be returned to duty, if guilty, shot. We need to punish treason harshly.
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
I'm not a libertarian but rather a classic liberal and I feel that the only punishment for this guy is death.

We must stand for something in this country, we must have some solid ethics within our society to protect our country.

It has to be one or the other, either we will treat this crime as something that doesn't mean much to us or we must treat is very seriously by standing behind a punishment to ensure it doesn't happen often if at all.

As many like to make things out as promises, like workers of the state being promised a pension and Social Security as a promise, that all pales in comparison to someone who has taken an oath to defend this country with their lives which is a promise between a soldier and the citizens. IT is more important than that of the soldier's right to do what they want or how they are treated when they are caught doing something wrong. They forsake the rights that a citizen has to the point that their promise is to defend this country by any means which includes if needed with their lives. We tend to forget that as citizens, many don't understand that promise nor in many cases want to.

Isn't a socially conservative libertarian sort of an oxymoron?

If we are to forsake the punishment over a societal need to 'do the right thing', then we are doomed to follow in other counties footsteps and decline into what can be construed as a lost country. Instead of maintaining the rule of law over emotions, since our 'enlightenment', we have forsaken the concept that we are country of laws and crimes like this p*ss on the graves of those who in the past gave up their lives for this country.

Manning broke that promise, not for the greater good or prevent some crime from happening but because of reasons he may only know. It wasn't that he was seeing some sort of crime everywhere he looked but rather to me he decided alone to do what he wanted without understanding the impact or caring about it. Whether or not he should be afforded his 'rights' doesn't matter, what matters he broke that promise and should receive what others in the past have for lesser crimes - death.

Comparing it to other's is a false comparison. I mean that many of those who have been spies for other countries have been civil servants and as part of a bureaucracy, their oaths to allegiance have a lot less meaning. Their compensation for their jobs is set while at the same time their cost to do their job is little on comparison to a solider. While they are truly just a commodity to run our government, it should stressed throughout our society that they only work at the behest of the citizens of this country.
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
"Comparing it to other's is a false comparison. I mean that many of those who have been spies for other countries have been civil servants and as part of a bureaucracy, their oaths to allegiance have a lot less meaning. Their compensation for their jobs is set while at the same time their cost to do their job is little on comparison to a solider. While they are truly just a commodity to run our government, it should stressed throughout our society that they only work at the behest of the citizens of this country."

What does this mean? What are you saying? I don't understand this paragraph.
 

AMonger

Veteran Expediter
The defendant has rights under UCMJ. I have no idea where this artical came from. If it is accurate. It is editorial and therfore suspect. I have no idea if Manning is a flight risk. If a general court marshal finds him innocent he should be returned to duty, if guilty, shot. We need to punish treason harshly.

Manning has rights under the Bill of Rights. The UCMJ further codifies them without subtracting from the Bill of Rights. They cover that in basic training.

The conditions Manning is experiencing have been published in several places. He's locked up 23 hours a day, deprived of a pillow and sheets, forbidden to exercise, and forbidden to receive visitors, among other things. That's over and above pre-trial confinement.
 

AMonger

Veteran Expediter
I'm not a libertarian but rather a classic liberal and I feel that the only punishment for this guy is death.

Being that the charge is that he released classified material to an uncleared party but not a foreign government, the possible sentence is up to 52 years. So it's not treason, and not a capital offense. And again, perhaps we should give him a trial first, whaddya think?

Manning broke that promise,

Allegedly.


not for the greater good or prevent some crime from happening but because of reasons he may only know. It wasn't that he was seeing some sort of crime everywhere he looked

To the contrary. The helicopter video was released to show innocents being killed.
Whether or not he should be afforded his 'rights' doesn't matter, what matters he broke that promise and should receive what others in the past have for lesser crimes - death.

I'll remember you feel that way if you're arrested--your rights don't matter. You're on record as feeling that way. Good thing our forefathers disagreed.

And even according to our own government's charges, his alleged crime doesn't merit death, only a max of 52 years confinement.

While they are truly just a commodity to run our government, it should stressed throughout our society that they only work at the behest of the citizens of this country.

That's the position we should take with cops, too, but most seem not to.
 

bugsysiegel

Expert Expediter
Actually, folks seam to be missing one point: the defendant does NOT have rights.

He forfeited those rights when he took the oath and enlisted. Military justice and civilian justice are two completely different animals; personnel in the military are subject to the Uniform Code of Military Justice, the UCMJ (as has been pointed out in this thread,) and is therefore subject to treatment the military deems fit, not civilians.

He knew when he enlisted what his responsibilities were and he purposely, and with intent to undermine the United States of America, disseminated material that was clearly marked as secret (or top secret, or confidential, the actual classification is a moot point.)

He may have cost lives, he may have set back the agenda of not only our government, but governments around the world, and he will have to pay for his actions.
 

AMonger

Veteran Expediter
Actually, folks seam to be missing one point: the defendant does NOT have rights.

He forfeited those rights when he took the oath and enlisted.

Patently false. They teach in basic training that the Bill of Rights still applies, and that you still have every civil right you had before you enlisted.

Military justice and civilian justice are two completely different animals; personnel in the military are subject to the Uniform Code of Military Justice, the UCMJ (as has been pointed out in this thread,) and is therefore subject to treatment the military deems fit, not civilians.

They are, indeed, two separate animals, and they exist in parallel. And in our system of government, the military is under civilian control. The military is subordinate to us, not the other way around.

He knew when he enlisted what his responsibilities were and he purposely, and with intent to undermine the United States of America,

Allegedly. His apparent motives were, similar to protesters, to improve America by exposing those damaging us.

He may have cost lives, he may have set back the agenda of not only our government, but governments around the world, and he will have to pay for his actions.

The government has grudgingly conceded he's cost no lives, and again, we're dealing with allegations here. He's been convicted of nothing. And as I've pointed out, his pre-trial confinement is punitive in nature. Will you be civilized enough to agree that he should have a trial before you string him up or otherwise punish him?
 

AMonger

Veteran Expediter
Too bad because you posted an editorial which by it's very nature is not fact. It is opinion.
The opinion of a USAF Lt. Col, who, it can be presumed, is a little more familiar with military justice than the rest of us keyboard commandos, doncha think?
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
The opinion of a USAF Lt. Col, who, it can be presumed, is a little more familiar with military justice than the rest of us keyboard commandos, doncha think?

Assuming he is he says who he is. What publication is this out of? By the way, I claim no expertise on military justice. Just what training I had 40 years ago. I have NO idea who this guy is. I have no idea who this Karen person is or where this stuff came from. That is all I am saying. It could be right, I just don't trust editorial comment only. Nor do I trust ANY U.S. news outlets very much. Nothing against you, you do understand that do you not?
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
"Comparing it to other's is a false comparison. I mean that many of those who have been spies for other countries have been civil servants and as part of a bureaucracy, their oaths to allegiance have a lot less meaning. Their compensation for their jobs is set while at the same time their cost to do their job is little on comparison to a solider. While they are truly just a commodity to run our government, it should stressed throughout our society that they only work at the behest of the citizens of this country."

What does this mean? What are you saying? I don't understand this paragraph.

If you don't understand it, then you need to learn the relationship between the citizen and the government.

Here is a slightly different version - the government works at our behest, not at the behest of an elected official so from congress down to the clerk in the office who is shuffling paper, they work for us. We give them the power to run the government for us, we are more important than they are and they have no choice.

Being that the charge is that he released classified material to an uncleared party but not a foreign government, the possible sentence is up to 52 years. So it's not treason, and not a capital offense. And again, perhaps we should give him a trial first, whaddya think?

I think that it was released to damage our country during war time, and it aids our enemy directly - not indirectly. With a clear defintiion what our enemy is, how he/she operates and the fact that intelligence is used for a lot of purposes - it is treason.

A good case of treason is William Joyce. Look it up and see what his crime was.

I'll remember you feel that way if you're arrested--your rights don't matter. You're on record as feeling that way. Good thing our forefathers disagreed.

Well my rights are different from Manning's rights, his are limited by the obligation under the oath he took, he forfeited those rights of a citizen when he became a tool for the citizens to defend the country.

Actually I think they would disagree with the rights of a solider being equal to that of a citizen. I have a strong feeling that if this happened from the time of the founding of this country up till the 1960's, Manning would have already been hung or shot and the issue would have been forgotten. They, the founding fathers had what seems by our standards absolute principles and this is proven by the resolve to deal with treason, as in the case of Thomas Hickey. They took oaths seriously, where we have to question everything, they didn't. Their position is you can't just decide to do something that will damage the country in war time - this is war time you know?

And even according to our own government's charges, his alleged crime doesn't merit death, only a max of 52 years confinement.

Actually his punishment would be death, read the statues.

Actually, folks seam to be missing one point: the defendant does NOT have rights.

He forfeited those rights when he took the oath and enlisted. Military justice and civilian justice are two completely different animals; personnel in the military are subject to the Uniform Code of Military Justice, the UCMJ (as has been pointed out in this thread,) and is therefore subject to treatment the military deems fit, not civilians.

He knew when he enlisted what his responsibilities were and he purposely, and with intent to undermine the United States of America, disseminated material that was clearly marked as secret (or top secret, or confidential, the actual classification is a moot point.)

Thank you, my point of view is based on these facts.
 
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