Union - Could it work, is it needed?

[ATeam]

>Now - while we are independent contractors my point is to
>become a group of organized independent contractors - set
>some standards, such as deadhead mile guidelines, pay per
>mile minimums, etc etc.
>
>While one contract may not fit every situation I am sure
>that one standard guideline such as deadhead miles, right to
>refusals, pay per mile, would be a stronger standard than we
>have now.

As an independent contractor, I am already 100% empowered to set my own deadhead miles, refusals, and pay-per-mile guidelines. The last thing I need is someone else representing me , who by human nature, will be less interested in my situation than his or her own. If my carrier offers deadhead miles too high, I say no. If my carrier offers pay per mile that is too low, I say no. If my carrier says my refusal rate is too high, I say, "too bad." If my carrier threatens to terminate my contract, I have numerous other options. On occasion, I have been able to negotiate higher rates from my carrier than originally offered. The last thing I need is a third party to set standards or negotiate on my behalf.

Instead of forming a union, it might be wiser to form an expediter interest group, perhaps within OOIDA. Other professional organizations often group members together into "SIGs" for special interest groups. There, people who are interested in a particular aspect of the industry their larger organization addresses can gather together and discuss issues of the day and work for positive change.

 

[joebob1_30132]

NO!!!!!!!

 

[highway star]

Having not been able to get on line for a couple of days, and only having a short time now, this seemed like a good thread to quickly browze for comedic value. I found it in message #14 where it said we would better understand ridiculous union ineptness if we were unionized. The vast majority of these posts are spot on.

 

[chuckwagon]

Leo, you are right - we should all join the OOIDA - in fact I will join here in the next few days and heck if its ok with you I will use your number for that great discount!

Anyways, the point I am trying to make in this thing, is we need a voice - a group voice, heck I dont care if its the union or a group like the OOIDA.

All I am saying here is that while I have only been at this for a short time I find it disturbing the problems we face each and every day - yet we all choose to ignore it, deal with it, work around it somehow or just frickin about it.

Yea, I know what someone is saying - Chuckwagon if you don't like it or if you can't deal with it - then just quit! That is the problem - I love this stuff, I love what I do and I am not a quitter nor should we just take that attitude with people when they see a problem.

We shouldn't be telling people "Man its always been like this, ain't going to change, heck don't like it - quit!"

No - lets step up and be businessmen (and Ladies) and work together to get things changed and I say lets ALL step up and join the OOIDA and give them a shout and make them listen to our concerns and make them and give them the power to work for us!

 

[ftp000]

for some reason the whole time I was reading CW's last post I could hear a choir singing "look for the union label" in my ear. Don't get mad, it was a joke. But all this talk of unions took me back a couple of years to when I drove a straight truck for Tri-state, we lived in ohio at the time and were constantly getting put on a load out of the Batavia Ford plant, we would wait and wait to get loaded, all the while watching a big group of fork lifts w/drivers sitting in a circle enjoying coffee and conversation, while one guy worked on loading trucks. One day I couldn't take it anymore so I asked one why he didn't help load,You probably know the answer already, he said that his "bid job" was for unloading trucks not loading, and it would warrent a grievance filing if he worked outside of his bid. Thats alot of man hours being spent on nothing, but hey, its in the contract. I learned a long time ago that if you're working for somebody else its your job to make them money. end of story. And I've found that if you work with that in mind you will prosper and be treated well. Unions take that mentality away, no longer am I a single worker being rewarded for making the boss money, now I'm part of a collective bargaining unit and not rewarded for my individual efforts but for a combination of everybody's effort, I have no say in my prosparity and can only be as strong as the weakest link allows.

 

[yaaintdeadyet]

I'm far from brainwashed. That's also as far as I'll go in addressing childish remarks. I've likely more union experience here than most. I can tell you this, there was never a union worker along side me or under my authority that didn't work harder than the foolish I see that settle for less than acceptable wages. I do know, by documentation that most non-union contractor's that provided services on a job site performed shoddy work. Many were often late, left early and carried themselves in a less than professional manner. For a little background. I began working in a non-union shop, served an apprenticeship there and learned enough to know that hard work serves every purpose of success. Then again, I come from good stock. Stock that taught me to ignore an ignorant attempt at a slight. Stock that instilled the ability to discern that the efforts of others matter little in goal setting and accomplishment. Including comments driven by petty emotion. After 30 years as a union laborer, during which I operated two service industries, I retired. In those 30 years I was a shop steward, filed more grievances than any 10 union members, and terminated at minimum 100 less than capable employees. Not one made an attempt to use thier union membership as a crutch. It would'nt have been tolerated.
I've been a certified court mediator in the state of CA for well over 10 years. During this time I sat in on contract negotiations as an observer and mediator. I sat along side very good friends from several companies as well as many union higher ups. There was never any language to even hint of lining a pocket. That's a ludicrous statement. If and when there's been wrong doing on a union's upper echelon it's brought to the forefront. Think in comparison to the number of businesses that have closed their doors. Realize there were employees that had no recourse when this took place.
I've carried picket signs, organized members and done more than my share of subversive strike tactics. I've also worked as a "scab". With many of the same men I worked with offering up threats.
I know first hand that the larger percentage of the working force not unionized is taken advantage of. The quality of work is subpar as well.
Chuckwagon's post spurred on emotion. There's been a rarity of fact presented. I'll ask again, would you remain an expeditor if your only means and method of staying in this industry were as a union member?

 

[yaaintdeadyet]

The unions I've worked for far from removed my ability to increase my wages and chance for advancement. Assertiveness is an estranged phrase for many. Yet know this, when you sign on to do a job you sign on to work with, accomodate, advance and promote. In whatever endeavor. Here's a good example of non-union hard work. Have you ever counted the number of shovels a highway crew needs to survive? That's including those required to hold up YOUR state tax funded employees. Of course government employees are the best example of stellar work ethic now aren't they?

 

[LDB]

You've been fortunate and apparently worked in the right places. I know first hand of many individuals who work "offline" and the only requirement is to complete a given number of units. When that's done they get to go home. They still get paid 8 hours pay no matter when they go home. Most of them finish in 4.5-5 hours so they are being paid 35-45% for nothing. I know first hand of union officers buying expensive items for themselves with union funds. I know first hand of a union person who can't complete their simple task to complete a repair or accomplish a task because they aren't allowed to do part of the work. The union electrician has to wait, at high union hourly pay, for a union carpenter to come remove the face plate before he can work on the faulty wiring on the switch. I know first hand I had to wait over a half hour to get 5 skids loaded to take to a plant that was shut down with all the union employees getting paid for nothing all because one union employee at the shipper couldn't shift his lunch break forward 5 minutes to load me and get me on my way.

Not all unions are bad. Not all union officers are bad. Not all union employees are taking huge advantage. Many are. For every example of good you can give there is at least one example of bad as well. Claiming anything less is failing to acknowledge the way things are.

Leo Bricker, 73's K5LDB, OOIDA 677319
Owner, Panther trucks 5508, 5509, 5641
Highway Watch Participant, Truckerbuddy
EO Forum Moderator
----------
Support the entire Constitution, not just the parts you like.

 

[chuckwagon]

I will say this post has brought on alot of emotion and alot of comments - both good and bad - both postive and negative.

The point here though is clear.

As a whole we all love what we are doing.
But we all see there are problems facing the industry and cutting into the earnings and lifes of the drivers.

Some of us feel we need to tackle these issues on our own, each driver to defend for himself.
Some of us feel we need to tackle these issues together, the only question here is how to do this - once again through a union or the OOIDA.

All I know is I am joining the OOIDA - I want to give them the clout to defend us with some of our issues. I am not saying that we should not consider another association, group or union - but what I am saying is let us all join the OOIDA and give them the numbers to stand up for us while we research other options.

This is not a quick fix solution to the problems this industry has had for years - so let us not rush into anything. By allowing the OOIDA to build in numbers now would give us an immediate resource of representation.

I will continue to research and bring up the issue of a union or the power another group could give us - but let us move forward together. You may be able to represent and defend for yourself now - but who says the companies may not put a tighter noose around your neck. And as you gasp for air to survive there is no one else around to help you because you hung on to that fu** everyone else attitude.

 

[grog111]

I think that one of the big picture items is getting lost here. It runs along the same lines of "Taxation without representation". Without a collective voice, ( read; lobbyist), "we" as independents tend to get run roughshod over and over again on lots of levels. And of course i have the "right" to turn down loads, or ask for more miles,deadhead,and area compensation, but, realisticly, what real catalist do i have to exact my requests...."i'll take my truck and go home" ? I doobt anyone would really care much. And then what...sell it? In this market? I don't know how many of you TRULY do the math on this stuff, But i'm sure some of you have buisness backrounds,(greg,phil,terry), but the simple math tells me that after all the blustering,(guys who say i eat all week on $10,or i get 17 miles per gallon in my super duper modified straight truck or i get 500,000 miles on my steer tires...i mean come on,i want to eat more than cheese and crackers every third day,and i've only gotten between 7 and 10 M.P.G. on any of the three different make and model straight trucks i've owned depending on traffic,idle time,etc. and i have yet to see any elves come out of the trees at night and cobble the tread back on my tires). If the national average rate is 120 c.p.m. (before fuel surcharges), and typically two thirds of that goes out in expenses (truck payments,insurance,fuel,maintenence,repairs,tolls,road usage taxes,depriciation,office products,gizmos and gadgets,updates and repairs on gizmos and gadgets,licensing,book keeping,paying the neighbor kid to mow your lawn and shovel your walk while your away,etc.,etc.) I'm mandated by government H.O.S. to 70 hours per week realistically after pre-trip,post-trip,loading and unloading time,food,fuel,phone time, sattelite message time,weigh stations, border crossings,stops to check load securement, random stops by dot to confirm things like load securement, that leaves what? maybe 50 hours of legal driving time? so let's see 50 hours at 50 M.P.H. on average is 2500 miles at 40 cents per mile,thats about $1000. not bad...until you figure health care at around $150 per week maybe $100 into your pension $25 into your vacation fund another $25 for holiday pay so now your looking at $700(thats $504 after taxes) thats about 8 bucks an hour for your 70 hrs. folks (time and a half after forty). and i know that i personally put in another 10 or more hours on repairs and washing and maintanence and paper work...and how do you calculate lost weekends sitting in dead areas or hours spent idle for the myriad of reasons that constantly come up. or the head aches and heartaches that are ever present in this industry. (whew...thats a load off my chest).

 

[davebeckym]

I've seen both good and bad in unions. The railroad has their JIT freight too. If there was a boxcar of shutdown parts coming in, we would be asked to work through our lunch. This meant we would get paid an extra 20 minutes for working through our lunch. When the job was finished, we still got to go to lunch, even if it was on at overtime rates. This would work for dock workers too, I would think.

As for the bad, I got to the GM plant at Tonawanda at 10:30 one morning. Everyone was sitting around reading their papers or whatever. I asked how long it would be before the could unload the two skids in my van. I was told the already did their quota, 2nd shift come in at 4:00. At 4:30 someone shows up, and at 4:45 they told me to move my van to the overhead door to unload.

After they unloaded the 1st skid they said "We can't pull the 2nd skid back because it would be unsafe". They then suggested a couple ways of doing this. They said I could back up and slam on the brake to make the skid slide back, or I could just floor it! I said it didn't sound safe to me.

I found something to strap my tow rope around and got it done. They stood there watching me like they were expecting more of a show!

 

[bryan]

Hi

Off topic but, I use a ratchet strap to pull freight to the back of the van.I either wrap an etrack strap around the skid ratchet up all the slack and then pull on the strap.Or I hook one end of a strap to the ball hitch hole and wrap the other end around the skid and just ratchet it back.Hope that helps somebody.

 

[greg334]

Sorry all of you who think a union will help - it will make things worst. Because the unions are against any use of the word INDEPENDENT.

I think the OOIDA is a better solution as is being more proactive in how we select carriers, how we handle our business and who we have drive for us. It is true that the proactive people, the people who are willing to make sacrifices and who have the right attitude will be successful.

Also lets make sure that we don't lump all unions in to the UAW mold, there are a lot of good unions and the UAW has made all unions look bad and it has outlived it purpose.

I am going to join OOIDA right now.

AND DO NOT FORGET TO VOTE.

 

[Tennesseahawk]

I think OOIDA would get a lot more support if they had a representative come on and start a thread or two and respond once in awhile. IMO they don't do enough to boost the number of members, or get the current members involved.

"If I claim to be a wise man, it surely means that I don't know." - Kansas

 

[trhoades]

I am a member of OOIDA going on my 3rd renewal. While i believe they do alot for us as O/O's and drivers. I don't see anything being done to help with "expediting". By this, I mean, lease purchase protection, fsc, log issues, etc, etc are all issues we and the "normal" trucking industry share. OOIDA is to generalized. We provide a special and premium service to freight hauling, and we need a more specialized group. It would be nice if OOIDA could break off a special division to more cater to this end of the industry.

While OOIDA may try to bring the rates up. It is not much help to us as expediters because I don't want to be paid the same rate as a guy who has 2 days to deliver the same freight as me, when I have to make it overnight. While he may have 6 hours to drive 80 miles to the shipper, I only have 2. While he is already pre-planned for his next run before he arrives at the consignee, I have to wait a day or 2 for some guy in shipping to make a mistake.

Maybe OOIDA has this department or division already and I've missed it. If so, I appologize for my ignorance. If not, it is something that I think could bolster OOIDA's membership, at least within the expediting community.

 

[barbaba704]

From someone who has been in the trucking industry for more than 10 years, if you want to ruin a pretty good industry, just unionize it! Are there problems in the expediting business? You bet! Are they solvable by smart, right thinking business people? You bet! We sure don't need union organizers, union dues that buy you nothing or non-existent union benefits that you pay for and never get. In this business we are all business owners(except for those who choose to work for owners) and don't need someone else to talk to the carriers for us. No thanks! Unions have already ruined enough industries in this country.

 

[chuckwagon]

That would be fantastic - a branch off of the OOIDA may just be the ticket.
Once I get my membership filled out maybe I should step up and talk to someone there at OOIDA

 

[Tennesseahawk]

TR, while I like your idea, the fact remains that expediting is a fragile industry. Any waves we make could mean contracts being lost to the big truck market. Now I understand that OOIDA doesn't cater to us, but what affects big truck industry affects us. I'm happy to let them do their thing for now, then maybe send a few grapes our way if they're successful. Right now, let's make them successful.

"If I claim to be a wise man, it surely means that I don't know." - Kansas

 

[yaaintdeadyet]

How is it that organized employees under a union contract are different than OOIDA represented employees? It's been said a number of times in this string about joining OOIDA for the benefit of "group" representation. Yet when there's mention of organized men and women under a union banner there's a soured acceptance. Here's another interesting take, why is the description of an "independant" contractor is so valued when as an "independant" you're required to wear the decal of the company you're "independantly" contracted to? You're expected to offer up escrow for services and material that deemed necessary and needful for employement.
I won't toy with this "union's are bad" series any longer. I do know that I've caused more grief for each union I've worked through more so than they've offered me assistance. By the way, the snippets of a union worker's poor work effort, the union "boss's" corrupt nature and the miniscule benefits supposedly offered through a union have been nothing as to what I've experienced. Then again there's little to be seen in our present day work ethic.
Know this, I've been far more critical of the union's I've had membership in and their members than most outside the "brotherhood" could corral through heresay.

 

[LDB]

One major difference is that OOIDA isn't going to require members to go on strike. OOIDA isn't going to verbally and in some cases physically assault members who choose not to go on strike when told to either.

While you acknowledge the "grief" you've given different unions you haven't acknowledged the possibility that examples of union impropriety directly observed by others have occurred and that some unions and union members are corrupt.

Leo Bricker, 73's K5LDB, OOIDA 677319
Owner, Panther trucks 5508, 5509, 5641
Highway Watch Participant, Truckerbuddy
EO Forum Moderator
----------
Support the entire Constitution, not just the parts you like.