The Trump Card...

muttly

Veteran Expediter
The Presidential Advisory Commission on Election Integrity (which, I think, is a make-work, dog-and-pony show) requested that all 50 states upload publicly available voter information to a federal website. No information that isn't already publicly available was requested. Most states have refused because, well, they really don't know why.

But in several states that have agreed to upload the information, they have seen an unprecedented uptick in voters volunatirly removing their voter registrations. Colorado has seen a 2150 percent increase in people withdrawing themselves as voters. The people withdrawing their registrations, and thus removing their own ability to vote, are overwhelmingly liberal democrats.

Because they sat down and really thought it through. "Oh, yeah! Well, I'll show you, Donald. I just won't vote! How do ya like them apples?"

I do not believe the commission is a make-work dog-and-pony show. I believe it is yet another attempt that is frequently seen in certain sectors of the Republican party to discourage people from voting. I don't mean discouraging illegal voting (which should be discouraged). I mean discouraging legal U.S. citizens from voting.

If it is true that people are withdrawing their registrations in response to commission actions, and that the overwhelming percentage of those doing so are liberal democrats, that will be very encouraging to those Republicans who believe in and take proactive action to discourage people from voting. Look for more activity like this under the guise of election integrity.
I disagree that it is done to discourage people from voting. Let's have as much election integrity as possible.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
Let's have as much election integrity as possible.
On that I agree completely. Every election we have a few illegal aliens voting. It's not many, to be sure, but it happens. And since every vote matters, it matters a great deal, even if it's just one. And because it happens, Voter ID should not be objectionable to anyone.

Voter registration and voting is a personal responsibility, not a responsibility for "a village." Every Republican effort at the suppression of legitimate votes is just as deplorable as are the efforts of Democrats to "silver platter" the voting process with 'free' shuttle service to and from the registration and voting process, as those votes are bought-and-paid-for adulterated votes.
 
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ATeam

Senior Member
Retired Expediter
Voter registration and voting is a personal responsibility, not a responsibility for "a village."

It's both. The individual citizen rises to the responsibility and registers to vote. The "village," or county in my case, operates a registration system and keeps records that are fair and accurate for all concerned. The state establishes laws that affect how, when and where a citizen may vote; and these laws need to be fair. That means fair to all citizens, not just citizens of a particular party, race, creed, property status or other such distinction.

I've seen little written about this but I consider Trump's unsubstantiated allegations about voter fraud to be a major slap in the face and expression of disrespect to the many fair-minded Americans who dedicate themselves to running a fair system.

I'm thinking especially of the volunteer election judges; citizens who give their time and talent on election day to make sure each voter is a properly registered voter and each vote is accurately counted. These are people of all political parties and no party who believe in the system and work to make it right. They are our neighbors. We see them at church and in the grocery store and at school PTA meetings. These are good, honest, caring people. Trump should be ashamed of himself for casting shade on their good efforts.
 
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Turtle

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Retired Expediter
I've seen little written about this but I consider Trump's unsubstantiated allegations about voter fraud to be a major slap in the face and expression of disrespect to the many fair-minded Americans who dedicate themselves to running a fair system.
I agree completely.

But I also don't dismiss out of hand the possibility that those dedicated to running the system are beyond reproach, particularly the Secretary of States. Too many of them knee-jerk vehemently answer that there is no voter fraud whatsoever, even when voter fraud is found. Even if voter fraud is rampant (which I don't think it is) they aren't likely to admit there is a problem. If they do, they're essentially copping to incompetence, or corruption, because they either missed a lot of fraudulent votes, or they know about them and then lied about them. Either way they come off looking really bad. Better to stick to "We're perfect."

I disagree on the "It's both." The village is not the country, it's the citizenry busy bodies living within the village who try and make someone else's personal responsibility their own. The country is mandated by the Constitution to operate the voting system, but they have zero responsibility in ensuring people show up and exercise the right to vote. Whether the citizen votes, or doesn't vote, is entirely up to the citizen. Any interference by the country or the village in that right, one way or the other, be it a barrier or an advantage not afforded to everyone, taints the vote of everyone.
 

ATeam

Senior Member
Retired Expediter
So today, we have yet another "smoking gun" that "proves" Trump collusion with the Russian government in influencing the 2016 election. Once again the anti-Trump reporters and commentators are straining credulity with their unsubstantiated and illogical leaps to their conclusions.

As I hear the news, I see a story of some guy who claims to have highly sourced information of interest to the Trump campaign. The fact that top campaign people met with him means nothing. This is a common campaign event as most anyone who has worked a campaign for high office can tell you. People of all kinds come out of the woodwork claiming to have something of importance. Most of the time it turns into nothing more than the flawed perceptions or self-serving fantasies of a fraudster who is looking for his/her moment among important people.

A careful reading of the email chain in question suggests the need for further investigation and a full airing of the facts. It does not suggest automatic guilt as breathless reports and commentators imply or flat-out state.

This is why we have professional investigators sworn to pursue the truth, and grand juries and courts. Let the investigations quietly proceed. The truth (whatever it is) will come out in time. Find something else to use to fill up the air waves, like real news about real events (like this, for example). In that, the country will be better served.

P.S. I have no sympathy for Donald Trump as he fends off the accusations. For years he poured his heart and soul into delegitimizing his predecessor president. It's true for Donald as it is for everyone else. What goes around comes around. You reap what you sew.

P. S. S. Wonder of wonders? Republicans are actually starting to seriously suggest that they may need to work with the Democrats to fix health care in the U.S. Maybe they're tired of fighting to defeat the other side. Maybe they're on their way to concluding that it's best to fight for the benefit of the citizens they serve.
 
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skyraider

Veteran Expediter
US Navy
We all need to quit P.S.S.I.N.G and get on with putting the USA back together again.....did Humpty Dumpty say that??
 

Worn Out Manager

Veteran Expediter
Owner/Operator
US Air Force
Maybe you're right. Maybe Donald Trump has already made America great again. Or maybe the 2016 election was unnecessary since nothing was broken before.
Point being, IMHO, we are not broken, rather evolving as a democratic republic. As such we will self correct, or self destruct. Change in any direction will come because it is wanted by the "majority" of citizens and not because a political party or ideology has temporary control.

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Turtle

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Retired Expediter
Well, MY USA is at least a little cracked. Half the country is out of work because their jobs moved overseas and the other half thinks "It's not what you can do for your country, it's what your country can do for you," and everybody else here thinks they have a right to migrate here illegally.

And the Free Press which we all depend on is...

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Ragman

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Well, MY USA is at least a little cracked. Half the country is out of work because their jobs moved overseas and the other half thinks "It's not what you can do for your country, it's what your country can do for you," and everybody else here thinks they have a right to migrate here illegally.

And the Free Press which we all depend on is...

15971
Nobody ever said we don't have some major problems, but broken?..... nope!
 

muttly

Veteran Expediter
Well, MY USA is at least a little cracked. Half the country is out of work because their jobs moved overseas and the other half thinks "It's not what you can do for your country, it's what your country can do for you," and everybody else here thinks they have a right to migrate here illegally.

And the Free Press which we all depend on is...

15971
Nobody ever said we don't have some major problems, but broken?..... nope!
A lot of the news media is broken.
 

Ragman

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Well, MY USA is at least a little cracked. Half the country is out of work because their jobs moved overseas and the other half thinks "It's not what you can do for your country, it's what your country can do for you," and everybody else here thinks they have a right to migrate here illegally.

And the Free Press which we all depend on is...

15971
Nobody ever said we don't have some major problems, but broken?..... nope!
A lot of the news media is broken.
Could be, but America herself? Nope.
 

ATeam

Senior Member
Retired Expediter
The fact that top campaign people met with him means nothing. This is a common campaign event as most anyone who has worked a campaign for high office can tell you. People of all kinds come out of the woodwork claiming to have something of importance.

On further reflection and reading, it may well mean something. At issue is not the content of the material the Russian attorney brought to the meeting, it's what the campaign leaders thought they might receive and the eagerness they exhibited for it. My prior political activity was at the state and local level. I did not know until today that it is illegal to solicit or accept items of value (including information) from a foreign national.

But again, this is why we have investigations. I'd much prefer that professional investigators look quietly into this instead of the media blathering breathlessly about it and a whole lot more that they make up to keep the buzz going.

Sadly, that's not going to happen. Instead of responsible citizens reserving to judgement, millions will rush to judgement and scream endlessly their opinions at each other.
 

Worn Out Manager

Veteran Expediter
Owner/Operator
US Air Force
Interesting comparison, Jr "thought" he could get information from a foreign government, (which could be illegal or just I'll advised), that could be of value in affecting the election, BUT, he came away empty, therefore no harm & no foul per Ms Huckabee. The analogy offered by Smerconish today: if a person tried to rob a bank and doesn't get any money should he get in trouble?

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Moot

Veteran Expediter
Owner/Operator
At issue is not the content of the material the Russian attorney brought to the meeting,...
The content should be of issue, at least a separate issue. As a former Secretary of State, Clinton may have been trading top secret info to the Ruskies for dirt on Trump. She may have been trying to enlist their help in hacking into Sander's campaign prior to the convention. Could be proof of large donations by the Russians to the Clinton Foundation. Could be a video of Bill Clinton sharing a cigar with Loretta Lynch on an airplane.

This whole Russian thing could be anything or nothing. One thing for sure is the media will milk it till it runs dry.
 
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ATeam

Senior Member
Retired Expediter
A significant aspect of the Trump Jr-released email chain is the fact that it was released by Trump Jr. himself. This is not a leak. It is not an unnamed source. It is not fake news. This is hard-copy, documented evidence made public by the president's eldest son and a top official in the Trump 2016 campaign. Further, the email chain clearly involves two other top campaign officials in the meeting.

These new facts cast a previous explanations in a new light. The new light -- emanating from a primary source (Trump Jr.) -- undermines the credibility of the previous explanations and those who offered them.

This new light will have certain effects in the ongoing political debate. It will have profound effects in the ongoing investigations.

Expediters all know how the landscape looks different as the morning darkness gives way to morning twilight, and looks different again as the sun gets closer to rising, and different still when it crests the horizon.

As in nature, so too with the truth. What we see today is different than was was seen yesterday, and what we'll see tomorrow will be different than today as the light improves.
 
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Turtle

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Retired Expediter
I did not know until today that it is illegal to solicit or accept items of value (including information) from a foreign national.
The campaign finance laws prohibit the solicitation or acceptance of cash or "a thing of value" from a foreign national, but that does not apply to information, regardless of how valuable that information might be.

The exchange of information and ideas is a core First Amendment concept, and Americans are free to accept ideas and information from US citizens and foreign nationals alike.

The statute also doesn't apply, for example, to volunteer work done on behalf of a campaign by an illegal alien, which is by definition a thing of value obtained from a foreign national. Can you imagine? I mean, the Clinton campaign had a well organized effort of illegal immigrants working on her behalf. Is that meddling in an election by foreign nationals? You betcha it is. But it ain't illegal.
 

ATeam

Senior Member
Retired Expediter
Nothing in the information released to date suggests this is anything more than a civil matter (not a criminal matter). The penalty for violating the election laws in question would be a fine in an amount that is less than pocket change to the Trump campaign and the wealthy people involved.

The significance lies not in the severity of the violation but in the way it illuminates the bigger picture.
 
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