The crux of the health care issue a la Senator Ted Kennedy

[Dreammaker]

"If we don't reform the system, if we leave things as they are, health-care inflation will cost far more over the next decade than health-care reform. We will pay far more for far less—with millions more Americans uninsured or underinsured.

This would threaten not just the health of Americans but also the strength of the American economy. Health-care spending already accounts for 17 percent of our entire domestic product. In other advanced nations, where the figure is around 10 percent, everyone has insurance and health outcomes that are equal or better than ours. This disparity undermines our ability to compete and succeed in the global economy".

See more at:Ted Kennedy Speaks Out on Health-Care Reform | Newsweek Politics | Newsweek.com

 

[layoutshooter]

Ted Kennedy is a foul person who's character is VERY suspect and is KNOWN to be a liar. I would not trust him to be my dog catcher. As to health, IF Kennedy is backing a bill that is even MORE reason to fight it. Kennedy has NEVER been a freind of the American people, only "sheeple" like him.

 

[Dreammaker]

Ted Kennedy is a foul person who's character is VERY suspect and is KNOWN to be a liar. I would not trust him to be my dog catcher. As to health, IF Kennedy is backing a bill that is even MORE reason to fight it. Kennedy has NEVER been a freind of the American people, only "sheeple" like him.

Layout,

I can appreciate your disdain for Uncle Ted; nevertheless, the line that is quoted is accurate. Check it out. I can cite you many "not Uncle Ted" references that point out the veracity of those statistics. The U.S. spends more of its GDP and more per capita on health care than any other country in the world by a long shot. And, the U.S. and South Africa are the only two westernized countries that do not offer universal health care. Moreover, if you look at short, moderate, and long term trends, as the Baby Boomers reach senior status, their health care will require a larger percentage of GDP. As more money is spent on "health care", less money is available for other needs including those spelled out in the Constitution such as national defense. Finally, if you define the purpose of public health care as promoting the non disabled longevity of the majority of a country's citizens, the U.S. is way down the list. Somewhere around number 50 of the countries in the world. Finally, if you look at bang for the buck, the U.S. is getting a raw deal as compared to the rest of the world. To wit, we are spending more money and getting shorter non disabled life spans than other countries.

There has to be a better way to provide, pay for, and distribute health care. I don't think the way it is being shaped in Washington is the answer, but there are answers that have proven to work in other countries, i.e., better results for less cost. In the end, there is no perfect solution, but there sure are better solutions for the amount of money currently being spent to provide for health care. One glaring difference between our system and other systems is the cost of administering health care. It is estimated that 30% of each health care dollar in the U.S. is spent on administration and not on direct health care costs. Other countries don't have anywhere near this cost for providing health care to its citizens.


See:
Stopping the Death Spiral

A Medicare-Like Plan for the Non-Elderly - Economix Blog - NYTimes.com

http://fraser.stlouisfed.org/publications/erp/page/14147/download/47638/14147_ERP.pdf

Sociology as applied to medicine - Google Books

Canada's health care system and the sustainability paradox -- Dhalla 177 (1): 51 -- Canadian Medical Association Journal

http://dll.umaine.edu/ble/U.S. HCweb.pdf

The welfare state as piggy bank ... - Google Books

Total expenditure as % of GDP statistics - countries compared - NationMaster

Snapshots: Health Care Spending in the United States and OECD Countries - Kaiser Family Foundation

Among OECD Nations, U.S. Lags in Personal Health

If you want more, I have more.

 

[layoutshooter]

Yeah, I have read that all before. I have NEVER seen a breakdown on some things that would really drive up our costs etc. Like, how much of that 30% is un-needed vanity cosmedic surgery? How much is going to people that are NOT here legally? How much is there due to lawsuits and outragious mal-practice insurance. Using England as an example, they are VERY limited in their ability to sue and you do not see outlandish settlements. How much is due to the advanced techknowlogy here that many other countries either don't have or have limited access too?

As to the quality of health care, I would have to see it. It was 30 years behind the times when I lived in England. Health care was rationed and still is there.

I do not believe that the government is capable to run a cost efficent health care system. Why do I say that? NOTHING else that they run is cost efficent or even works at all for the most part. I don't like betting on a bunch that has proven themselfs not able to do the job.

 

[OntarioVanMan]

Kennedy must have read the article I posted....

Dreammaker...
Glad to see that you as an American things aren't all that rosey that some paint in here and wave the flag we are the best....ain't happenin....we are NOT the best..we are slipping behind other countries that are developing faster then we.....we are no longer the top dog....maybe in military might...but trade and economically we are losing ground.....

There is no easy solution...things will have to be done and some are going to be pizzed...

 

[aristotle]

Permeating the whole issue is an unrealistic sense of entitlement on behalf of those seeking universal healthcare. Americans demand Cadillac care but are on a Volkswagen budget.

We live in a capitalistic system, for the most part. If you want to socialize medical care, then you are fundamentally changing who we are as a nation. Socialism is akin to cancer itself: it kills individual incentive and drives away entrepreneurship. Are you sure you want the tentacles of government involvement rationing healthcare in this nation?

Democrats in Washington are busy concocting tax schemes and making healthcare promises they can't possibly keep. America is broke but no one wants to say it. Barring some sort of second Industrial Revolution, it appears America will be in dire economic straits for decades to come. Why? Because our government has already spent us into the poor house on promises we cannot afford. Thanks FDR. Thanks LBJ.

If anything, we need a counter-revolution that drastically cuts government programs and cuts taxes across the board by 50%. But, the Democrats have carefully nurtured an entitlement society which demands the impossible.

 

[layoutshooter]

Well, IF the things that are done involve the Feds in ANY way, increase my taxes in ANY way and force me to pay for abortions in ANY way, I will NOT pay my taxes from that point on. I will tell the government just where and HOW they can stick their health care. THEN you will find out JUST how much force those turkeys are going use. Freedom is a wonderful thing and I REFUSE to give it up for ANYONE. Now is THAT getting pizzed or what? I will FIGHT before I submit to this extortion.

 

[OntarioVanMan]

And that is why you world will come to an unhappy demise.

Many, many Americans want some kind of health care like many other countries....BUT not the proposals that are presently on the table and being rushed thru.....

 

[OntarioVanMan]

.30 of every dollar now just for the administration of the present form of healthcare....thats uncalled for....you are already taxed for it Joe....

 

[layoutshooter]

This so-called health care plan is only a ploy to take control of the country away from the people. I have no doubt that they will come after me. That IS how the left works. Kill anyone that stands up to them. I have stood against the ideas that Obama is pushing my entire life. I took a oath, on multiple occasions, do defend this Nation and our Constitution from EXACTLY what is happening now. This is NO different that Nazi Germany or Soviet Russia. Real men do a couple of things without fail. they take the oaths that they swear seriously AND they DO NOT compromise thier principles. I will NEVER surrender to the scurge that is coming our way. These scumbags in Washington are going to have to kill as many as Hitler and Stalin did to FORCE their slavery on us. You know where they can go!! As the State Motto of New Hampshire says "Live Free or Die"!!! Words that I live by.

 

[OntarioVanMan]

Kenny Rogers song.....Joe don't take your guns to town...*LOL* oh wait it was Ruby....

Joe...we already have medicare...a useless cost prohibitive program....scrap it.
If they feel so inclined fund state medicaid...each state has different needs...that way state rights won't be trampled on....

BTW the way OBama is doing it is just wrong...we agree there..

 

[layoutshooter]

Let's see we have Medicare, Medicade, Social Security, SSI, Welfare that are ALL socialist government programs. All of them are failures. They are full of fraud, coruption and have NEVER lived up to the promises that were made about them. The track record of the government in running programs such as this is a bad as it can get. WHY give them MORE power? More chances to screw up even more? The control that they want? NO WAY!! The govenment sucks and they will NOT get MY money for this.

 

[dieseldiva]

Let's see we have Medicare, Medicade, Social Security, SSI, Welfare that are ALL socialist government programs. All of them are failures. They are full of fraud, coruption and have NEVER lived up to the promises that were made about them. The track record of the government in running programs such as this is a bad as it can get. WHY give them MORE power? More chances to screw up even more? The control that they want? NO WAY!! The govenment sucks and they will NOT get MY money for this.

Let us not forget the health care provided to our Vets in our Veteran's Hospitals........now THERE'S a real advertisement for more government-run health care, eh??

 

[layoutshooter]

Not all Vet's hospitals are as bad as some that are shown on TV. I have been using VA hospitals for 15 years or so and I have to say that the experiance has been a good one. Having said that we DO NOT provide anywheres near enough care for our wounded vets or vets suffering from physc problems. Our vets have NEVER been a priority of ours as a country. We should be ashamed of ourslelfs for allowing this to happne. We use those who serve when it suits our needs and then often ignore or downplay the care that they need.

 

[chefdennis]

You want government controlled healthcare, go for it! Leave me and my insurance and insurance carrier alone and do not complete against them...I pay just a bit over $1000 a month for medical insurance for my wife, daughter and myself...it will go up next yr, as it has very yr since i have had it....I am ok with that and will continue to pay it...just leave me, my insurer and my policy alone....just add all of those that want this B/S to the medicare rolls..problem solved, you now get to partake of that government controlled healthcare program....

This has nothing to do with health care, when this is passed and your doctor tells you that you have to eat from his government approved list of foods and and you will submit to random blood work to check for things you didn't even ask about..and so on, then maybe you will understand that this was about controling the people..

Oh and gone will be the doctor/patient privacy also...the gov will know everything and anything they want to know.....

 

[aristotle]

Is anyone willing to discuss the reality of America's impending economic collapse? The US federal government is BROKE. Our government is living on borrowed money and borrowed time. The US government has accumulated trillions$$ and trillions$$ in debt upon which it struggles mightily to make the bare minimum interest payments only.

And here we are having an esoteric discussion on spending Trillions$$ more for an utopian style healthcare system that exists only in the minds of academicians and government bureaucrats. One more severe blow to our economy and it's all bets off.

Already, we have fewer and fewer working people trying to support those living outside the workforce. The tax burden, all inclusive, is crippling us now. Our government has overpromised and overtaxed. The US government couldn't deliver you a bologna sandwich in the hospital unless they used borrowed money to do it. Looking to the government for solutions is, frankly, asinine. Heaven help us that we might escape the clutches of the Nanny State.

 

[layoutshooter]

AND most likely a National DNA data base, WITHOUT your premission.

 

[Dreammaker]

The US government couldn't deliver you a bologna sandwich in the hospital unless they used borrowed money to do it.

Aristotle,

I think that is why they are pushing to reform the way health care is provided in the U.S. With 17% of GDP going to health care, the U.S. spends substantially more than other countries for less overall benefit. If we, the folks, could figure out a way to deliver the same, or relatively the same, benefits for 10-12% of GDP, then the overall tax burden and borrowing needs would be decreased. Reducing costs to that level doesn't necessarily mean rationing of health care resources. Although, I think rationing is a false argument, because we already have rationing of health care in the U.S. today. It's just rationed by price.

When I was a kid, I was an Army brat. Our family got our medical services at the Post hospital where my Dad was deployed - many places in the U.S., Europe, and Central America. I don't recall ever getting bad or poor treatment. I don't recall having to sit in the waiting room for an inordinate time. Appointments were made and kept. Emergencies were dealt with in a timely manner, all via the U.S. government. The doctors, nurses, and specialists were paid far less than they probably could have made in the private sector. It all worked out. So, to say the government can't provide health care in a cost efficient manner is a misnomer. Whether they can scale that up to the whole population is a question I am not sure of the answer.

It appears the country as a whole is for some kind of reform. See: Majority in U.S. Favors Healthcare Reform This Year. As Turtle pointed out in another post, if the congress took more time to find a sensible solution to this problem, we might all benefit. But, I think the Dems think they have a once in a generation opportunity to push this item on their agenda. As they see it, the stars have all lined up for them on this issue. It's **** the Torpedoes, Full Speed Ahead. Unfortunately, they see the need to get this done by the end of the year, because we have congressional elections next year. They probably see the writing on the wall and understand they may lose or at least lessen their majorities in the House and Senate.

 

[chefdennis]

Here you go Aristotle:

http://www.expeditersonline.com/for...-financial-collapse-september.html#post317774

 

[OntarioVanMan]

so here is the stalemate....one side says IF the government reforms healthcare properly...it will actually be cheaper in the long run than what we have now....we would actually SAVE 1 trillion dollars...

Wave all the numbers you want for your cause..I for one doubt that America will collapse in September or October...