I'm no mechanic

ftp000

Expert Expediter
My 06 sprinter has been acting like the EGR valve either needs cleaned or replaced, its coughing black smoke when accelerating (sometimes, mostly after idling) and at times putting itself in protect mode until I stop and turn it off and back on. So I decided, after reading on the interwebs how easy it was, to take the EGR valve off and clean it. First I had to go and buy special tools, it requirs a star shaped socket, and a star screwdriver with a hole in the middle, I didn't have those. Then I set to taking it off in the parking lot of the motel 6 in Decator AL. Well I couldn't get the thing off, the top part comes off but the bottom part is stuck big time. So I gave up and started putting it back together, then the trouble began. I tightened everything back up and started the van, oh good there's a small fuel leak, so I proceded to over torque until I broke the head off of a bolt, crap! I have a load to pick up tomorrow headed to the Cleveland area, there should be no problem making it as the fuel leak is just a drip, but I'm still urinated off at myself. Now I have to go get one of those tap kits at Lowes and hope it works, otherwise its gonna cost me. I'm gonna try to do it tomorrow morning since we don't pick up until 3:30. The long and the short of it is I suck, and can't fix things.

Posted with my Droid EO Forum App
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
The old style EGR valve (03 and I think 04) can be cleaned. The new style (what you have) cannot. Well, it can be cleaned, but cleaning will do absolutely no good whatsoever, since the new style has a self-cleaning function that opens and closes twice after the engine has been shut off to eliminate soot deposits. Your only real option is to remove and replace it with a new one, making sure to get a new gasket, as well.

The EGR valve works by recirculating exhaust gases back into the combustion chamber. Exhaust gas recirculation reduces the quantity of fresh air supplied to the cylinders per stroke without having to throttle the air supply. As a result, emissions are reduced.

The EGR system can provide up to 35% exhaust gas recirculation. The EGR operates during all engine speed and load conditions. At wide open throttle, it provides a 5% recirculation rate. The EGR shuts down during high engine idle to avoid carbon build up on the valve. The EGR also deactivates if the EGR temperature is too high.

When idling at low idle for extended periods of time, the EGR valve is too wide open, allowing a lot of soot to enter the valve and the engine, allowing soot to build up. This also causes an early failure of the EGR valve, so be prepared to replace it 150,000 or 200,000 miles or so, depending on how often you idle at low idle.

Also, the mass of the air supplied to the cylinders per stroke is the decisive factor for determining the optimum quantity of exhaust gas for the operating condition. This is calculated from the Mass Air Flow sensor information. So if the Mass Air Flow Sensor is dirty or malfunctioning, it can send incorrect signals to the EGR valve, causing the EGR valve to be too open or too closed. The Mass Air Flow sensor is located on the engine air filter housing (what that big hose connects to) and can be removed with a screw driver and cleaned with electrical contact or Mass Air Flow sensor cleaner (available at Autozone or any auto parts store). Just spray the cleaner into the sensor housing.

Because of all the carbon buildup, not just on the valve and its sensors, but down inside the exhaust gas passage into the engine, the ECM senses an airflow problem and puts the engine into "limp home mode". You can reset the computer by shutting the engine off and restarting it, as you have found out. But the only remedy is going to be to replace that EGR valve.

The reason it was so hard to remove is that the part of the valve you cannot see, about half of the valve, is a 4-inch or so pipe that slides down into a that round opening that it's mounted to.
Egr1.jpg



You can see from the picture below that quite a bit of it extends down into the passage. What you cannot see is just how tight a fit it is, and it's a tight fit even with a new, clean valve.

EGRValve.jpg



Soot builds up between the pipe and the opening, creating a very tight fit. You need to remove it by pulling upwards, and by twisting it. But, of course, you won't be able to twist it by hand, you'll have to bang it with a hammer to dislodge it. Bang on one side to twist it, then bang on the other to twist it the other way, and eventually you'll get it out.

Remove the gasket and clean out the hole as best you can with a rag, damp with diesel fuel or some other cleaner. Don't spray anything down in there, tho. You don't need to get it pristine clean, just remove the excess soot.

Replace install a new gasket and EGR valve and you're good to go.


If you drop by a dealer for a new EGR valve, the part will cost you $500. You can get it here for $300. Don't forget to order the gasket. If you don't want to mess with replacing it yourself, you can still get the parts and then take it to a dealer, or any mechanic, for that matter. You can go for months on a bad EGR valve. Longer than that, actually. You'll just get crappy fuel mileage. But if you go too long, then the soot buildup will eventually cause other related problems.
 
Last edited:

ftp000

Expert Expediter
What an amazingly informative post! Thank you sir. I can only hope that my efforts to remove the broken screw are a success, then I can live with the occasional problems until I can get home and order and replace the valve. I do have one question though, what idle RPM would keep the soot from building up?

Posted with my Droid EO Forum App
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
You're welcome. I figure too much information is better than not enough. :D

Low Idle speed is around 680 RPM (.3 gallon per hour). The factory High Idle speed, which you can have a dealer program into the ECM, is 2000 RPM (1.0 GPH).

2000 RPM will definitely keep soot from building up, but that's insane for an idle. Anything above 1000 RPM will keep the soot down to a low level, but right around the 1280 mark (.5 GPH) will be the best compromise between fuel usage and soot buildup. The 1280 mark is where the needle sit on top of, and barely covers the top of, the number 1. So slightly above or below that should be fine.

You can get a really nifty idle stick at the TA like I did, or you can fashion your own out of a piece of wood, like a broom handle, and wedge it between the gas pedal and the dash.

There's also some very good information here about idle and idle sticks. :p;):D
 

stamp11127

Seasoned Expediter
I don't have a Sprinter to look at so here comes the "stupid" question.
How did you go from working on the EGR valve to having a fuel leak?
 

ftp000

Expert Expediter
Good question, and further proof that I'm no mechanic, because I just don't know. Maybe I should have said that a clear liquid is leaking and dripping off of the EGR valve, I believe it to be fuel.

Posted with my Droid EO Forum App
 

ftp000

Expert Expediter
After some.further research I have determined that the leaking liquid is most likely coolant. This research also concluded that I am indeed stupid.

Posted with my Droid EO Forum App
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
There are lots of things I'll repair on the van, and lots that I won't. The last thing I want to have happen is for me to do something that makes things, or something else, worse. You can do something that creates another problem, but unless you know how to fix that problem, too, it can become a real mess.

A picture of the leaking fluid might help.
 

ftp000

Expert Expediter
I seem to have gotten the leak to stop, at least its just a drip. But I'm pretty sure its coolant. My wife and I had both commented about the lack of a strong diesal smell. As for the other thing you said about making it worse, that's exactly what I've done.

Posted with my Droid EO Forum App
 

purgoose10

Veteran Expediter
The old style EGR valve (03 and I think 04) can be cleaned. The new style (what you have) cannot. Well, it can be cleaned, but cleaning will do absolutely no good whatsoever, since the new style has a self-cleaning function that opens and closes twice after the engine has been shut off to eliminate soot deposits. Your only real option is to remove and replace it with a new one, making sure to get a new gasket, as well.

The EGR valve works by recirculating exhaust gases back into the combustion chamber. Exhaust gas recirculation reduces the quantity of fresh air supplied to the cylinders per stroke without having to throttle the air supply. As a result, emissions are reduced.

The EGR system can provide up to 35% exhaust gas recirculation. The EGR operates during all engine speed and load conditions. At wide open throttle, it provides a 5% recirculation rate. The EGR shuts down during high engine idle to avoid carbon build up on the valve. The EGR also deactivates if the EGR temperature is too high.

When idling at low idle for extended periods of time, the EGR valve is too wide open, allowing a lot of soot to enter the valve and the engine, allowing soot to build up. This also causes an early failure of the EGR valve, so be prepared to replace it 150,000 or 200,000 miles or so, depending on how often you idle at low idle.

Also, the mass of the air supplied to the cylinders per stroke is the decisive factor for determining the optimum quantity of exhaust gas for the operating condition. This is calculated from the Mass Air Flow sensor information. So if the Mass Air Flow Sensor is dirty or malfunctioning, it can send incorrect signals to the EGR valve, causing the EGR valve to be too open or too closed. The Mass Air Flow sensor is located on the engine air filter housing (what that big hose connects to) and can be removed with a screw driver and cleaned with electrical contact or Mass Air Flow sensor cleaner (available at Autozone or any auto parts store). Just spray the cleaner into the sensor housing.

Because of all the carbon buildup, not just on the valve and its sensors, but down inside the exhaust gas passage into the engine, the ECM senses an airflow problem and puts the engine into "limp home mode". You can reset the computer by shutting the engine off and restarting it, as you have found out. But the only remedy is going to be to replace that EGR valve.

The reason it was so hard to remove is that the part of the valve you cannot see, about half of the valve, is a 4-inch or so pipe that slides down into a that round opening that it's mounted to.
Egr1.jpg



You can see from the picture below that quite a bit of it extends down into the passage. What you cannot see is just how tight a fit it is, and it's a tight fit even with a new, clean valve.

EGRValve.jpg



Soot builds up between the pipe and the opening, creating a very tight fit. You need to remove it by pulling upwards, and by twisting it. But, of course, you won't be able to twist it by hand, you'll have to bang it with a hammer to dislodge it. Bang on one side to twist it, then bang on the other to twist it the other way, and eventually you'll get it out.

Remove the gasket and clean out the hole as best you can with a rag, damp with diesel fuel or some other cleaner. Don't spray anything down in there, tho. You don't need to get it pristine clean, just remove the excess soot.

Replace install a new gasket and EGR valve and you're good to go.


If you drop by a dealer for a new EGR valve, the part will cost you $500. You can get it here for $300. Don't forget to order the gasket. If you don't want to mess with replacing it yourself, you can still get the parts and then take it to a dealer, or any mechanic, for that matter. You can go for months on a bad EGR valve. Longer than that, actually. You'll just get crappy fuel mileage. But if you go too long, then the soot buildup will eventually cause other related problems.

Great stuff good job. I don't have a Sprinter but I read a thing about changing the EGR to another type that lasts longer and you can clean it easier, but don't remember where.
 

BillChaffey

Veteran Expediter
Owner/Operator
US Navy
I know GM used to or still may have a Orange coolant. I think most main stream coolants are green in color. Clear would seem to be water. Plus Diesel should have an oily feel to it.
 

fortwayne

Not a Member
One thing about orange coolant is if u do use it make sure u drain the old green stuff out. The orange coolant does not mix or blend with any other coolant. It seperates and does cause additional problems.

Posted with my Droid EO Forum App
 

stamp11127

Seasoned Expediter
ftp000, friendly word of advice. Get a service manual from fleebay & read up on what you plan to work on before hand. It is easier and cheaper that way and you'll know what your in for. Once you have read the entire manual you'll be a qualified shade tree/parking lot mechanic.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
Fleebay? Puhleeze. Why pay for something when you can download it for free? :D

As for coolant, don't just go buying coolant based on the color. Sheesh. New engines and their coolants are designed with each other in mind. Just because you have an aluminum engine doesn't mean you need this or that color, either. The owner's manual will specify the type of coolant you need. Do not think you know better, 'cause you don't. Using the wrong type of coolant will have a really bad effect on not just the cooling system, but on all the seals and things like heater core and water pump and everything else the coolant touches. The seals and all those components are designed for a specific coolant.

HOAT stands for Hybrid Organic Acid Technology. Many newer Ford and Daimler vehicles require HOAT coolant. The other option for coolants is the OAT coolant, OAT standing for Organic Acid Technology. Both HOAT and OAT are a coolant/antifreeze, but that's like saying brake fluid and transmission fluid are both oils. Except that one is a hydraulic oil and the other is a lubricating oil, and they are very, very different from each other. HOAT and OAT are likewise just as different from each other.

Prestone does not make a HOAT antifreeze, despite the label saying that it is good for all vehicles, including aluminum engines. The fact is, it's not, and it's been proved to be not. (I have found, by and large, when something claims to be good for everything, it's actually optimal, or best, for nothing).

Automotive engineers spend lots of time on metallurgy and coolant chemistry. There's sooo much more to coolant than a boiling or freezing point. It also contains additives to prevent electrolysis, lubricate the seal in the water pump, prevent foaming, and condition gaskets. The life of your radiator, heater core, water pump, and heater tubes are at stake, and the cost of replacing those components FAR exceeding the extra cost of genuine Chrysler coolant, or a genuine recommended HOAT product like Zerex G05 (available at all NAPA stores, as far as I know). Knowing this, why would anybody risk it? I don't know.

People will freak out over $20 or $25 a gallon coolant for the Sprinter, and will go get the much cheaper alternative, and then pat themselves on the back for their ingenuity. Then, a little later, they'll curse their POS Sprinter because its POS heater core or POS engine head gasket has failed.

All other things being equal, the big difference between HOAT and OAT is coolant electrolysis. Because of the basic chemistry involved in the two formulations, and the interactions of the coolant and the metals involved, the anti-electrolysis agent in OAT coolant breaks down rather quickly. OAT does not contain certain anti-corrosives for copper, for example, and the interaction between the copper, aluminum and coolant in a Sprinter's cooling system will accelerate the degradation of the electrolysis agent. Once that agent is exhausted, the dissimilar metals throughout the cooling system begin swapping electrons, causing significant and costly damage. There is no one size fits all coolant anymore, simply due to the metallurgy and chemistry involved.

Heater core failure, for example, is most often caused by electrolysis, regardless of whether the proper coolant chemistry is used in the vehicle. Replacing a heater core in most late model cars involves removing the entire dash, evacuating the A/C system and the complete disassembly of the heater box and ductwork. It's slightly different with a Sprinter, but in any case it's usually every bit of a $1,000 repair. You can prevent it by regular coolant changes and using a coolant specifically designed for your cooling system (A.K.A., the one the manufacturer recommends).

If you're so inclined, you can check the electrolysis of the coolant. Using a digital multimeter, set it to read 12 volts DC. Attach one of the test leads to the negative battery terminal and submerse the other end into the coolant. Rev the engine to 2,000 RPM and read the voltage on the meter. Any reading over .3 volts indicates that the coolant is conducting too much electricity and is eating away at your cooling system components. Either the coolant needs replacing or you have a grounding problem in the vehicle. If the coolant is fresh, check for poor ground connections between the engine and the firewall and the engine and the negative battery terminal, as fresh coolant is just as corrosive as old coolant when there's a ground problem causing the electrolysis. In the case of Prestone in a Sprinter, I promise you, the voltage will read above .3 volts at a much lower mileage than the label says that you'll be protected for.

The color of your antifreeze is, by and large, irrelevant, as there are some exceptions. But generally, coolants with IAT (Inorganic Additive Technology) are green in color, OAT is orange, and HOAT is yellow. Depending on which Mopar part number of coolant you get, it could be day-glo orange, a day-glo yellow-gold or a deep red that looks more like transmission fluid.

It's bad enough when you use the wrong coolant for your systems, but it's really bad when you start mixing chemistries (mixing colors, to those who don't know the chemistries). Always use the coolant the manufacturer recommends. Stick to the list. Always stick to the list.

If your GM requires Dexcool, then you know what? That's what you should use. If yours requires OAT, then use OAT. If it requires HOAT, there ya go. Don't stick Dexcool or HOAT or OAT into a classic car, either. Classic cars use the original green stuff, for the most part, but few other cars do anymore. Don't buy coolant because it happens to be your favorite color.
 

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
I have an 05...and as Turtle said idle at around the 1200 mark....however last week in Iowa rather then setup my generator I stuck in the idle stick for about 9 hours and awoke to cooler air...the stick had slipped and I was only around 750-800 rpm...this triggered "limp mode" took me 4 times to get the egr to do whatever it does...on, off, on, off and so forth....
the 4th time triggered the engine light to come on which I figured was probably the mass air sensor since it is the boss of a few smaller sensors... the EGR finally cleaned out
about 2 days later the engine light went out, as the system cleaned itself out not to trigger any alarm bells...

584k and still the original EGR :)
 

ftp000

Expert Expediter
Well it definately was coolant, I know this because I had to add a bunch when the low fluid light started to flicker. I bought this van from my father-inlaw and he was running Prestone 50/50, it's really light in color so thats why it looked clear.
We ran our load up to Cleveland, we had to stop a couple of times and turn the van off and on to get it out of limp mode but otherwise no trouble. I stopped at an Autozone and had them hook it up and see what codes its throwing and they showed EGR for sure. We knew we'd be sitting either way so we brought the van down to the Dayton area where our daughter lives and dropped it at Stoops, they were 100 dollars cheaper on the parts than anybody local ($400), and we get to save hotel money and hang out with our daughter. Hopefully once they pull the old EGR valve off there will be enough of the broken screw sticking up to get ahold of, as long as we don't have to pay to have that drilled out I expect to get out of here for around $600 and have it done by tomorrow. Thats better than loosing loads waiting for one of the internet places to get it here then having me break 6 other parts trying to do it myself.
Thanks Turtle for all the info and the link to the manual, unfortunately I already had that one, its the thing that made me think I could play shade tree mechanic in a hotel parking lot.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
Well it definately was coolant, I know this because I had to add a bunch when the low fluid light started to flicker. I bought this van from my father-inlaw and he was running Prestone 50/50, it's really light in color so thats why it looked clear.
Read the above crap about coolant. Prestone 50/50 isn't on The List, and if there's one very-near-absolute about Sprinters, don't use any fluids that aren't on The List.

Thanks Turtle for all the info and the link to the manual, unfortunately I already had that one, its the thing that made me think I could play shade tree mechanic in a hotel parking lot.
Ironically, it's the one that made me know I couldn't. :D

It's helped me out a lot, tho. Back when I insulated this thing I used canned foam, and got too much into the voids of the rear doors, the driver's side rear door in particular. It oozed everywhere and seized the door latch and lock mechanism. So, I had to remove the latch and then clean it out.

The latch has a couple of thick pins (rods, dowels, whatever) that are inside the door which connect to two heavy rods. When that black plastic handle is forced inward when you shut the passenger side door, the pins rotate and force one rod up through the top of the door and the other rod down through the bottom of the door, where they get inserted into those holes to secure the door.

When I removed the latch and got some of it cleaned out, the top rod dropped like a, well, like a heavy metal rod. I won't say how long I spent trying to thread a 5 foot long rod up through that hole in the top of the door, but it was a lot. Imagine holding a sewing needle with tweezers in one hand, and holding the thread with tweezers in the other hand, and then trying to thread the needle, in the dark, blindfolded. There ya go. This is also a good example of doing something, then something unexpected goes wrong, and you have no idea how to fix it.

At this point I turned to the manual. That's the last time I have turned to the manual after the fact, I should add. The manual said that before you remove the latch mechanism, be sure to use locking vice-grips on the part of the rod that extends out of the top of the door, to prevent it from falling down inside the door. Fortunately, it also told how to disassemble and reassemble the door, so it illustrated quite well how to get that rod back in place (insert and thread it from the top, rather than trying to do it from below). Took less than a minute. :D
 

ftp000

Expert Expediter
The coolant issue is now the list, though I suspect he's been running it so long it wont matter. We got the van for a very good price and the engine had just been replaced with a rebuilt one, unfortunately it seems it was getting to be time for everything else to go bad so we're having a tough time getting an income flowing. The alternator went and because it was the only one around, I put a cheapo on, the cheapo went out within a month. But I feel like once this is done we should get some time to earn before the next catastrophe.

Posted with my Droid EO Forum App
 
Top