HOS Discussion

nobb4u · Nov 11, 2006

I know that everyone has an opinion about the HOS but I would really like to know how the bureaucrats manage to figure out how much sleep or rest or whatever I need. I would like to know what kind of study group they use to determine sleep patterns in thousands of different people. I have always felt (no actual knowledge of this) they must use line drivers. And in my opinion this is not accurate group, because most line drivers know a week from now exactly where and when they will be driving, they have their hotel rooms lined up in advance.

True over the road drivers have no idea what tomorrow will bring.

My idea has always been if you own your own truck and have been driving as an owner operator for longer than 5 years then there should not be any log book regulations for you. I know that people who donâ€™t own their own rig will disagree with me on this, but I really never knew why we needed log books until I drove for a company and believe me if it wasnâ€™t for the log books the companies would try to run you into the ground.

I know of course that the log books will never be eliminate because there is too much money in them for states, because we all know if some DOT or state trooper wants to write you a log book violation he WILL find a violation, no matter how meticulous you are in completing your logs. You may be able to beat him in court but he will still write it if he really wants to get you.

I am not new at any of this I have been driving since 1982 I have driven them all, dry freight, reefers, tanks and now with my little baby truck, 2000 Freightliner Century with full WG equipment including reefer.

Just wondering if anyone agrees with me or if you all disagree with me. Just a topic for discussion as we all enjoy a good discussion

LDB · Nov 11, 2006

Nobody should be exempt from logging. Just because somebody has 5 years experience doesn't mean they aren't going to exceed the envelope because this run is too good to pass up. Doesn't matter they've been up 17 hours already and will have to be up another 15 to do this run. It's too good to pass up so the heck with safety and common sense. Logbooks don't completely protect us from that but they are the best option we have.

I have no idea how they came up with these new HOS regs. I think 2 hours is too short to stop the clock and 8 hours is way too long. Personally I'd like to see a 5 hour sleeper berth stop the clock. That would let teams go back to their 5/5 schedule and let solos get enough rest to mean something without shutting them down for the day.

Leo Bricker, 73's K5LDB, OOIDA Life Member 677319
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greg334 · Nov 11, 2006

I understand they did three studies to come up with the idea that we now call HOS. The funny thing is that the studies must have been sponsored by all the major carriers because they only benefit them and the ATA.

Now it is a wonder that the facts that were derived fomr over 60 years of the military studying fatigue and sleep disorders and patterns meant nothing.

nobb4u · Nov 11, 2006

If you think a log book will keep someone from a run then you are living in a dream world. I have been driving for over 25 years and the first thing I learned in Logbook 101 was how to adjust a logbook to suit my purpose. But I will say this as an owner operator I know my limits and I also know what I have to lose and I would never jeopardize my life or my business ($160,000.00 rig) for a run. But a logbook violation is as easy a logbook in the trash can to avoid.

As I said as an owner I know what I can handle and what I canâ€™t and a logbook canâ€™t tell me what I am capable of doing or when I need to sleep. Only I know my limits and I am not being a super trucker, but after so long on the road you know what you are capable of doing and what you are not and I know when I need to sleep and when I donâ€™t and I have never been afraid of telling anyone, a dispatcher or anyone else when I can no longer drive and I need sleep because I am the only one who does know. This is my point in as being an owner I donâ€™t need someone to tell me how to run my business because I know better than anyone else how to run MY business.

We are one of the few business where the government tells us how long we can work every day in our business, how do you think the neighborhood pharmacist, who is just starting his business and canâ€™t afford any help, but wants to be open 7 days a week from 9-9 would feel if dear old Uncle Sam stepped up to his door and said â€œwait a minute you canâ€™t work all those hours filling all these poor sick people prescription you might make a mistake and nod off and fill it with the wrong stuff and kill someone. You need to log all your hours and tell us when you go to the bathroom, stop to eat ad you must sleep when we tell you. Also we will call ever so often completely at random and tell where you have to go and make you pee I a cup just to make sure you arenâ€™t using any of those drugs you are selling.â€

But you see as â€œdumb truck driversâ€ we need the government to tell us what to do.

As I said this is just for discussion and I hope you see my point. I have driven over 3 million miles owned 5 new trucks, without any accidents and only 2 speeding tickets both in California and both for only less than 10 MPH over the speed limit. So I do feel I am qualified to discuss this point.

nobb4u · Nov 11, 2006

I feel the ATA has never done anything that has benefited a single driver. They only do things that benefit their bottom line.

Tennesseahawk · Nov 11, 2006

I don't know if no logbook is the answer. But like you, I want to know how they came up with these crazy numbers. 11 and 8 with a split sleeper would be more than adequate for most drivers.

The director of the FMCSA comes on Sirius truckers channel every once in awhile. However, I never hear a hardball question. I've tried to get thru but never do. I'd like to ask him:

1) How many representatives of the ATA are on the board that makes the HOS rules? And how many OOIDA representatives are on the same board?

2) If the feds are so worried about safety, why don't they take control of the actual training of truck drivers, instead of the ATA controlled puppy farm truck driving schools? Why don't they mandate a certain length of time that a trainer has to be on the road before they can train? I've heard some as little as 3 months, and they're training. As far as I'm concerned, that's like a private training another private in the art of warfare.

3) Why can't the government close the loophole that basically makes it impossible to convict the ATA companies of wrong-doing when their "newbie" drivers cause an accident due to inexperience?

4) How much does OOIDA have to pad the pockets of our congressmen before they have as large a voice as the ATA?

There are several million owner/operators and independant drivers. Obviously, we outnumber the ATA's company drivers. The Teamsters are even on our side, yet we gain NO ground when it relates to our wellbeing and financial standing. This is the most regulated field in the country, as far as how much we're allowed to work. Even the military is expected to go 36 hours before they can sleep in a major engagement, and even then only for an hour or two. What's wrong with this picture???

"If I claim to be a wise man, it surely means that I don't know." - Kansas

DanJ · Nov 11, 2006

As far as I understand it, the 2 hour thing doesn't stop the clock. It only reduces the next rest period by those 2 hours. But if you start at 6am, your clock ends at 8pm whether you take the 2 hours or not. I also understand there are 100 different interpretations from 100 different people so I could be wrong as well.

I also beleive the new Canadian law allows 13 hours driving in the 14 hour on duty window, but I don't think there is any provision to reduce the 10 hour off duty period. Also, we will have a 36 hour reset period, and 70/7 days instead of the current 70/8. Something to keep in mind if operating cross border, since you have to be legal where you drive.

highway star · Nov 11, 2006

It would be a wonderful world without log books. That's what I like about my van. But we all know it won't happen. The problem is, they will never have something that works for everyone. The old rules didn't and neither do the new ones. Most drivers starting with good rest at 0600 could work a 16 hour day, with reasonable breaks, behind the wheel. Of course, we'll never see something like that. I think something closer to reality would be 14/10. You could drive the whole 14, less pre-trip, fuel, ect., 8 off consecutive, then 2 one hour breaks at some reasonable interval while working. Keep a 5/5 for teams.

Tennesseahawk · Nov 11, 2006

Why just a 5/5 for teams? The way it is now for solos, we have to drive 11 in 14; being forced not to take a nap when we're tired in the middle of a 700 mile trip. If a split is in order, I say make it so for everyone.

"If I claim to be a wise man, it surely means that I don't know." - Kansas

LDB · Nov 11, 2006

No, I'm not living in a dream world, just observing that with no logging there would be even more drivers exceeding reasonable limits than there are now with logging. Certainly nobody should tell you to keep rolling if you decide it's time to stop, even if that's just 2 or 3 hours after starting. There have to be limits on the other end though or a day wouldn't go by without multiple incidents caused by overextended drivers.

Leo Bricker, 73's K5LDB, OOIDA Life Member 677319
Owner, Panther trucks 5508, 5509, 5641
Highway Watch Participant, Truckerbuddy
EO Forum Moderator
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Crazynuff · Nov 12, 2006

>As far as I understand it, the 2 hour thing doesn't stop the
>clock. It only reduces the next rest period by those 2
>hours. But if you start at 6am, your clock ends at 8pm
>whether you take the 2 hours or not. I also understand there
>are 100 different interpretations from 100 different people
>so I could be wrong as well.
>
>I also beleive the new Canadian law allows 13 hours driving
>in the 14 hour on duty window, but I don't think there is
>any provision to reduce the 10 hour off duty period. Also,
>we will have a 36 hour reset period, and 70/7 days instead
>of the current 70/8. Something to keep in mind if operating
>cross border, since you have to be legal where you drive.
You are correct . The 2 hours is on the clock but it only counts toward the 14 that day . It doesn't count toward the 8 day/70 hour total . With that in mind if you are delayed 4 or 5 hours it would be beneficial to take most of it in the sleeper even if you have to take 8 hours later . Keep in mind if you split the sleeper you can not drive 11 hours or work 14 after the 8 hour break . You have to subtract the hours you logged after the short break . If took a 2 hour break then drove 4 hours and spent 1 hour loading , then took an 8 hour break you can only drive 7 hours .The 8 hour break doesn't reset the clock . It's best to take the full 10 whenever possible .

Crazynuff · Nov 12, 2006

>I feel the ATA has never done anything that has benefited a
>single driver. They only do things that benefit their
>bottom line.
Their attempt to force manufacturers to put 68 m.p.h. speed limiters on trucks shows this . This has been discussed on another thread but making a 10 hour run become an 11 hour run by reducing truck speed is not promoting road safety .

chuckwagon · Nov 12, 2006

These ground rules that are set by the feds are all part of changes that we as drivers should have an active role in participating in the development of.

However, speaking with your congressman or senator just does not do the job that it should - as they really do not want to hear from us as individuals and do not have the time to hear from each of us.

We need to become a bona fide group to have our voices heard!

highway star · Nov 12, 2006

Yes chuck, we get it.

Thawk, I have no problem with a split for everyone. It just seemed REALLY stupid to take it from teams. I also should have said no continuous clock. If you want to take longer breaks while running, that's fine. I guess I was just throwing a basic framework out there.

Tennesseahawk · Nov 12, 2006

No prob, Highway. Didn't mean to come off snippy like I did either. This issue, in particular, gets me irritated to no end. No wonder so many truckers ignore the rules and just produce the perfect logs.

"If I claim to be a wise man, it surely means that I don't know." - Kansas

Prarysun · Nov 13, 2006

I really wish they would at least go back to the 5/5 split. To make the logs work, teams have to do 10/10 which IMO is the worst way yet to log. Teams that get a load late in the day, and unless you can nap or sleep on Q, (I cannot) the first to drive must drive the most dangerous hours, thru the nite.... if it's a long load, that 1st driver, is put in a precarious position. If it was 5/5 then at least some of the pressure is off and they know they can get some rest part way thru the nite.... In a perfect world both drivers would get rest anticipating a nite run, but from one who cannot sleep or nap on Q you can only hope your co-driver can. I just wonder how many teams are really able to keep the 10/10 going legally all of the time?

Dianne

LDB · Nov 13, 2006

I suspect there's a statistically significant number of 5/5 teams showing 10/10 on paper.

Leo Bricker, 73's K5LDB, OOIDA Life Member 677319
Owner, Panther trucks 5508, 5509, 5641
Highway Watch Participant, Truckerbuddy
EO Forum Moderator
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Support the entire Constitution, not just the parts you like.

DanJ · Nov 14, 2006

If you are already tired when you start out, knowing you only have 5 hours to go isn't much help, since the 5 hour break you get isn't going to be enough anyway. At least with 10/10, you have a long enough time off to get proper rest. But I agree the guy with the first 10 on is going to be in rough shape and hopefully he bites the bullet and stops for a rest if needed.

Unfortunately your body clock, your HOS clock, and the load clock don't often run in synch with each other.

highway star · Nov 14, 2006

Dan, you hit the nail squarely about trying to synchronize 3 different clocks. The 5/5 is as good as it gets to deal with that situation. Proper rest can be had in shifts. Five hours is a tiptoe through the tulips(we miss ya, Tiny Tim)for most drivers. Five in the bunk and you're good to go five more. It's the logical safety choice for teams.

Tennesseahawk · Nov 14, 2006

If both of us had been up, and we get a night run, we did a couple hour shifts until daybreak. Just enough to get us a nap and rest the eyes.

"If I claim to be a wise man, it surely means that I don't know." - Kansas