Hey is this all true? Iraq really coming around?

Jayman

Expert Expediter
RE: Hey is this all true? Iraq really coming aroun

I believe its true. I have seen stories like this (even though there havent been many) for almost 2 yrs. The media doesnt put them at the front though. Especially in an election year. Heck, ever since President Bush took office, left wing nut jobs have been throwing their own brand of grenades. Too many people in the media just want to knock the GOP. It doesnt matter what the GOP says or does. Left wing nut jobs will find a reason to complain.
 

cheri1122

Veteran Expediter
Driver
RE: Hey is this all true? Iraq really coming aroun

>I believe its true. I have seen stories like this (even
>though there havent been many) for almost 2 yrs. The media
>doesnt put them at the front though.
I believe it is deceptive - it looks an awful lot like one of the current administration's "paid propaganda" campaigns. Using numbers such as "33000 schools built, or repaired" is a classic example of facts that are accurate, but misleading. For example: how many of those schools were damaged by the war, and so wouldn't have needed repair otherwise? I could ask similiar questions about every statistic cited.

Especially in an
>election year.
That, I believe, says it all - this is a campaign advertisement, pure & simple.

Heck, ever since President Bush took office,
>left wing nut jobs have been throwing their own brand of
>grenades.
I'd just like to point out that the "grenades" are strictly verbal, & when Clinton lied, NO ONE DIED.

Too many people in the media just want to knock
>the GOP. It doesnt matter what the GOP says or does. Left
>wing nut jobs will find a reason to complain.
It matters very much what the GOP does, and the Dems, and the courts, to all of us. Name calling indicates a reliance on emotion, rather than reason, which is a huge part of the mess we're in today.
 

Jayman

Expert Expediter
RE: Hey is this all true? Iraq really coming aroun

"Name calling indicates a reliance on emotion, rather than reason, which is a huge part of the mess we're in today."

I apologize for the name calling. Emotion does get into the mix at times I suppose. However, good reason is accompanied by discernment as well. Watching the media and "some" of those who represent the democratic party and how they conduct themselves makes it easy to go the other way. For me anyway. I am sure others can say the same for the GOP though. I suppose it all comes down to the fact that people support those who look and sound the most like themselves.

As far as Iraq goes...we need to stay. Leaving will not fix anything. The efforts of those who have sacrificed something there would have been in vain. We do need to change how we are doing business there though. Information that has been given to the current administration by our military and the Iraqi government hasnt always proven to be correct and things have not always turned out as well as we had hoped. Unfortunately, mistakes are made. If you were to ask Hillary or Ted Kennedy if something needed to be done in Iraq a few years ago they would and did say yes. But, I would also speculate that they would have also said that it wouldnt be an easy task. Its an election year and the dems want to take back control and you cant do that if you say the current administration is right, can you? You have to take the opposite side of the fence, even if what your saying isnt totally true. The media has been supporting the dems more than they have the GOP for years. How often do we hear anything good about what we are doing in Iraq? Are we supppose to assume that nothing good happens there? Are we suppose to assume nobody is safer and with a better future there? I feel the media needs to focus more on the good stuff and how our military and the Iraqi government can overcome those few people (insurgents)and the hateful violence they carry out.
 

cheri1122

Veteran Expediter
Driver
RE: Hey is this all true? Iraq really coming aroun

Jeffman, I wish our military and the Iraqui government could overcome the hateful terrorists, but I'm not sure anyone can - the fighting in the Mideast has been part of life there for a very long time. We had no business going to war in Iraq, (Osama still doesn't live there!), and all the politicians who said we should did so because they were lied to by Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, etc. Now that we are there, should we stay? That's the 64 million dollar question, and the answer depends on your point of view. I haven't made up my mind on that one, but I do find troubling the recent news that a lot of soldiers in Iraq are using the "whisleblower protection" law to request that the US withdraw all troops from Iraq, on the grounds that they are not accomplishing as much as they're losing. Media bias also goes both ways: read the Wall Street Journal, for a pro Bush viewpoint.
Those of us who feel that Bush is The Worst President Ever, are not blindly anti Republican, nor are we all left wing nut jobs. IMO, a real nutjob is the minister who protests at funerals of soldiers, carrying signs that say the soldier died because "God hates :censoredsign:s"!
Labelling people, creates boundaries, not bridges. I don't know what we should do next about Iraq, but when someone who's smarter than me has a good idea, I hope it won't be dismissed without consideration, simply because of the labels we tend to apply, like Democrat, Republican, liberal, conservative, etc.
Oh yeah - I've seen any number of stories in the papers that portray some good news in Iraq, and I'm afraid the reason there aren't more is because the news in Iraq simply isn't good, for us or the Iraquis.
 

highway star

Veteran Expediter
Owner/Operator
RE: Hey is this all true? Iraq really coming aroun

Well Cheri, you got one thing right. Those "God hates :censoredsign:s" people are MORONS. I knew it was a small church, but I had to laugh when I heard recently just how small. It consists of the Phelps family.

Being descriptive isn't necessarily name calling.
 

Jayman

Expert Expediter
RE: Hey is this all true? Iraq really coming aroun

True, they havent been getting along well for a long time. Even though I heard one of CNN's reporters say this evening that "shia and sunni's have lived in harmony for 200 years". He must be a real bold charachter to make such a lie on tv... This is what im talking about when I say the media lies to us to influence our thinking.

I am not sure if anybody has really proven Bush, Cheney, and Rumsfeld lied to us. In my books, they made an assesment based on known facts and others decided to make issues over it. We all knew Sadam had weapons of mass destruction at one point. We saw all the women, children, and men laying dead in the street when he gased them a few years back. Did Sadam do anything to suggest he was willing to comply with UN resolutions? Of course not. So, as far as WMD go...in my books he had them. Just because we didnt find them dont mean he didnt have them. I speculate that they were moved at some point into Sryia. He was also paying suicide bombers families money, which was a connection to organized terrorism. I believe we needed to do something with Sadam and Iraq and so did a lot of democrat politicians long before Bush was elected the first time.

Havent heard anything about the suggestion that troops are using the whitle blower protection law. If the media is the one saying this...I would be skeptical. I wouldnt be surprised if a few have, but...the media likes to grab anything that pushes their viewpoint. If its a small detail, they have a knack of making it look bigger. Polls happen to be their current tool of choice. Their polls and so called facts indicated that Kerry was going to win by a landslide... We dont hear the media talking about the people of Iraq stepping up and taking responsibility for whats going on. Their participation is their own elections shows their desire to do this. I wonder how long its been since they have been allowed to vote? The media doesnt focus on their people taking positions in their police and security forces despite the danger this may bring them and their families... It is mentioned at times but only after or in the middle of a direct or indirect slam on our current administration. I really hate their segment called "Broken Government". (CNN)

I agree 100% on the issue of people protesting funerals for soldiers. That is actually against the law if the cemetary is a federal one like Arlington.

Staying away from labeling people typically is good policy. However, on some issues at one point or another you have to call things or people by their name. Not that I or others give the name, the person in question does that by their actions not our observations. You never make consessions just to avoid offending. There has to be more justifaction for the consession. (on serious issues) Smaller topics naturally dont get the same level of "attention". If all people where honorable...this wouldnt be necessary. But, in my 39 yrs I have learned what everybody else has learned. You face liars, cheats, and haters way too often and that has to be dealt with accordingly.

I like you hope that things will improve in Iraq. I think they will, its just a question of how long it will take. Hopefully soon. I am getting ready to retire from the military and have a troop of mine in Baghdad right now.
 

cheri1122

Veteran Expediter
Driver
RE: Hey is this all true? Iraq really coming aroun

Having gotten one thing right, I believe I'll quit while I'm ahead here!;) :+ :)
 

cheri1122

Veteran Expediter
Driver
RE: Hey is this all true? Iraq really coming aroun

Jayman: first, I'd like to say thank you for serving our country. Opposition to a war should not extend to those who are fighting, but only to those who decided to fight.
Second, I'm not surrendering here, but only calling a cease-fire, until I can cite some facts to defend my point of view. I don't like to make statements that I can't back up.
Last, pretty much all the news I get is via Google News, because there is no advertising to distract me with bells & whistles, so I can take my time reading, & try to understand the implications. Google draws from a wide variety of sources, so it's not a one-sided picture, as some may be. I cannot remember exactly what was said about the soldiers using the whistleblowing law, but I'll try to find it again, because it was very troubling - I don't know of anything like it having been done before.
 

Jayman

Expert Expediter
RE: Hey is this all true? Iraq really coming aroun

Cease fire is cool. Dont see it as a surrender. Actually, I dont like these to go on too long. Dont want people to I am attacking them because they see things different than I. Besides, sometimes I am wrong. :)
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
RE: Hey is this all true? Iraq really coming aroun

Cheri,

Learn who the enemy is, learn what mistakes we have made in the past and with this war and learn what is really going on.

You can call these people (animals) insurgents, freedom fighters, militia and a bunch of other euphemisms but the truth is they are and will always be terrorists. Many of them are not even Iraqi.

You can not reason with them, you can not appease them, you can not do anything except to die – this is the way they all look at it.

I posted the link because of what I know from people who are/were there – including Iraqis who live in my area. It surprises me that everyone who seems to say they are for a change in Washington call this propaganda while others sees it as truthful and not based on spin.

What I find troublesome is a lack of the real truth of what has been going on. The truth is actually what Saddam blurted out during his trial; you can not appease or control them by being soft. See the Iraqis know what to do, the US military knows what to do and so does the leadership of our country but they have two big problems, the world who has been appeasing terrorist for a long time and the left in this country wants to take a different course of action.

I agree that it was a mistake to go in there but honestly it was a bigger mistake for Jimmy Carter to pull his support from the Shah, lie to congress about the embassy surprise and to do absolutely nothing to a country that invaded us. He showed the world that we are soft; he showed the world that we would rather compromise our reputation, our safety and our citizens than fight. We should have nuked Iran at that time, wiped them off the face of the earth.

As one Iranian told me a while ago, the Arab mind is such that they respect strength, they respect enemies who fight and they expect a fight than to negotiate. But put it into context with today’s problems we have, the Arabs don’t respect us because of Carter, because we are soft and because we appear divided. If you don’t believe me, pick up Seven Pillars of Wisdom and other books like that – they are all insightful and will show you what is going on then is still going on today.

Now if you want to see what we are really fighting for, go to France. See how screwed up the French let their country get. I talked to someone from France who is moving here and she said that they are all scared, very scared. She said here we don't have that fear. I find that the BBC’s series of reports on Moroccan/Algerian terrorist in France interesting because it was discovered that the US is not the major source of why many young people want to join and become Jihad fighters. It explained the fight between the east and west and the fight within the Arab world between the fundamentalist and the progressives (meaning the people who want to advance their culture not like the liberals here who call themselves progressives). By the way, they are still having riots over there – did you know that? of course not the press won’t report it.

Here is the thing I see, there are too many problems that we have been part of that has brought us to the point that we are more divided over all issues – not just Iraq.

The first problem we have in this country is the media. Whether you feel they are right or wrong – they are aiding the enemy for strictly political reasons.

Read carefully what is being written, who writes it and how. Don’t discount conservative writers that they are only the tools of the administration, their messages have been more consistent than most of the left’s.

The press is so hateful of not just conservatives of any sort but also religious people and supporters of a president that they make it a point to exclude things. How many times have you seen the good in Iraq or Africa or Bosnia (you know we have troops in Africa and Bosnia?)

We have a truly unfetter and unaccountable press which is a bad thing. The intent was to have a press for the public good, the public safety came first than the country but that has been lost since the 60’s. One problem is when the press needs to shut up, just look at the leaking of secret information, they have absolutely no right to leak secrets; it is called treason to support let alone publish secrets regardless what they are. The NY Times should be shut down for the first thing that they published. There should have been arrests and the congress should have started investigations to find the person who has been leaking classified information, but no one seems to care.

Look at how the press defended Dan Rather who never EVER said that presenting falsified documents to the public was wrong – he has never taken responsibility for HIS decision trying to sway an election. Regardless if it was Bush or Kerry that he did this to, it was wrong and illustrates the fact that people ignore serious problems when it suits a political agenda.

Oh I won’t even go down the path that the press empowers the enemy; they give them more reasons to kill our soldiers than any of the actions of Bush ever did. And I won’t go down the path that Sheehan, Carter, Kerry, Murtha and McCain are all supported by the press and also help the enemy by bringing down the moral of the soldiers who believe in their mission and what they hope will be a positive outcome of the entire war.

The second problem is that a lot of people think that Bush lied. Guess what, the intelligence that he had was the same stuff the congress had; even the really important senators know what the truth is and this is something that they will never tell us. If he would have really truly lied, do you think that people like Kennedy and other very senior senators who really have a lot of power would not have started to force impeachment proceedings and investigations? They all know what the truth is. The thing is this is a big game that both the Dems and repubs have been playing for a long time and will never change and remember this is the same as when Carter presented to the congress that the capture of our embassy in Iran was a surprised – he lied. And this thing about WMDs, let me tell you that one once of saran will kill a lot of people and someone with a good chemistry background can make this stuff let alone a leader of a country who has billions of dollars to spend.

I don’t like Bush, I think that he made a bunch of mistakes; not building a fence is one of many. I admit I voted for him but I would not vote for Kerry who seems to have focused and rammed down our throats about his Vietnam experience and cried when he lost the election – not a guy I want in the white house. But with that said, I have to point out the economy is doing well except for Michigan (democratic governor who lies and is a political w***e). I think that the economy is stronger and more stable with the tax cut he put into law and that if we see a rise in taxes, we will get a recession. Many people would like to see that tax cut go away because it helped the ‘rich’ – BS. It does not matter what the ‘rich’ pay, it matter s what you and I pay and with any of the democrats (and a few republicans) ever get into office and you and I would pay more taxes.

The third problem is that we are divided by the minority, the majority doesn’t yell, scream and act like children when trying to get a point across – they are silent on many issues. The minority seem to be running the show and screaming about things, saying Bush should die, embracing iran, ets... One thing is that the majority is really silent about are Rev Phelps and the Westboro Baptist church. The majority does not want to deal with this idiot or his follows. I know that people like Sheehan support them and others who believe we have absolute rights of speech and expression believe they have a right to say and do what they are saying and doing. Don’t support people who tolerate hate, the dems seem to go out of their way to embrace Rev Phelps.

The last thing I find is that many people don’t get the fact that Bush has not done anything beyond what other presidents have done, actually Clinton did a few things worst. Carter, Clinton, Johnson, Kennedy, Nixon, etc.. all have done the same thing for different reasons. The press hates Bush, many of the left hate bush and many democrats hate bush so I would say the focus is on every little thing that he and his staff does is in the press. The funny thing is that no one seems to be blaming the one person who holds all of us and the country in contempt and who started all of this to begin with – Former President James Earl "Jimmy" Carter, Jr. He has been very disrespectful, damaging and un-American as anyone could ever be. I would say as someone who has been destructive to the country, he would be up there is Bin Laden, Hirohito and Hitler.

Oh one last thing; have you noticed that in the past former officials, like presidents, Secretary of States never – ever talked about a sitting administration in a negative fashion. I thought that it was something about respect for the office, the person and the norm for the decorum would dictate the protocol of former presidents and cabinet members to be silent and respectful – but it seems to be gone somehow. Carter, Clinton, Albright and Powell have been out there telling groups of people (for profit I might add) what they think of the present administration and this reflects on their character and integrity – they should support the country a little better if they really want this war to end.
 

highway star

Veteran Expediter
Owner/Operator
RE: Hey is this all true? Iraq really coming aroun

Greg is right on target about Arabs respecting strength. The move into Iraq was a preemptive move and showed that strength. Sadamm and allies like Syria were a potential threat. Whether or not Osama was in Iraq is as totally irrelavent as it gets. Imagine how different things would have been 70 years ago if there had been a preemptive move on Hitler.

Would'nt battle be much more civilized if all we had to do was say "everybody stop while I reload."
 

cheri1122

Veteran Expediter
Driver
RE: Hey is this all true? Iraq really coming aroun

>Greg is right on target about Arabs respecting strength. The
>move into Iraq was a preemptive move and showed that
>strength. Sadamm and allies like Syria were a potential
>threat. Whether or not Osama was in Iraq is as totally
>irrelavent as it gets. Imagine how different things would
>have been 70 years ago if there had been a preemptive move
>on Hitler.
>
>Would'nt battle be much more civilized if all we had to do
>was say "everybody stop while I reload."

Whatever threat Saddam & his allies represented, the "war on terror" was declared after the US was attacked on our own soil, by terrorists, led by Osama Bin Laden. In that context, the whereabouts of Bin Laden are extremely relevant. If being considered a "potential threat" is reason enough to invade a country, we may as well reinstitute the draft, including every man, woman, and child, because there are an awful lot of countries who have no respect for us anymore.
Imagine how different things would have been if there had been a preemptive move on Galileo...he was considered an enemy in his time, too.
Battle can never be civilized, by definition, and the more often we resort to battle, the less civilized we become. We have now descended to the point that our current leadership advocates torture!
 

bryan

Veteran Expediter
RE: Hey is this all true? Iraq really coming aroun

HI

I agree we can not leave now.We should of never went in just for that reason.

Anybody who has ever read a newspaper knows that Lebonon harbors terrorist,that North Korea and Iran were working on WMD's and that Sudan is a bed of future insurgants and terrorist.

With all this why did we go into Iraq? Saddam hated terrorist.When he caught them he would load them on a flat bed trailor and would use a crane to hang them.Making sure they were elevated enough for everyone to see.Yes a dictator and a real nut job, but not an emiment threat.

I feel that if we are going to win the war on terror we need to do a better job of picking our battles.Once we bring democracy to Iraq we will still be no closer to winning the fight against terror.I don't think we have the resources to fight every country in the Middle East.
 
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