Hazmat question?!

[Turtle]

Ok, let's see if I can explain this so you can understand.....
If I have a 100 lb container of corrosive, the container has to have HAZMAT LABELS on the container(which means it is hazmat),

The HAZMAT label on the container means it's HAZMAT? Really? You really need to let the DOT know that, because they think otherwise. Labels are required on the outside of the package regardless of the quantity shipped, as long as the material shipped can be shipped in a quantity that would classify it as HAZMAT. The fact that some package has a HAZMAT labels on it does not make the load a HAZMAT load. Only the shipped quantity is what determines whether or not it is HAZMAT.

If you haul HAZMAT, you must have a CDL and a HAZMAT endorsement on that CDL. Yet, someone without a CDL can haul a 100 pound package of corrosive. You have to ask yourself, why is that? The answer should be obvious.

the paperwork has to be marked as HAZMAT,

The FMCSA regulations for paperwork specifically state that non-HAZMAT material cannot be marked as HAZMAT unless the quantity shipped classifies it as such. Have you not read the regulations?

but you don't have to have HAZMAT PLACARDS on the truck.

Correct, as 100 pounds of Class 8 Corrosive is not HAZMAT. If you are hauling HAZMAT, then you are required to have placards on the truck. If you aren't required to have placards on the truck, then you aren't hauling HAZMAT.

If it's a danger to the public (or the environment), then it's HAZMAT. If it's not a danger to the public (or the environment) then it's not hazardous materials. If it is, in fact, a danger to the public, then you have to alert the public to the potential danger. That's what placards are for.

It is still a corrosive. If this container leaks, you have to have a HAZMAT team come out to clean up the leak and overpack the container.

That all depends on if it's a reportable quantity. A truck battery is corrosive, too, but if it leaks you don't have to call a HAZMAT team out to clean it up. Sulphuric Acid, a Class 8 Corrosive, has a RQ of 1000, meaning a spill of anything more than 1000 pounds would require reporting it, and a HAZMAT clean-up team. You also, coincidentally, don't have to placard a load of Sulphuric Acid of 1000 pounds or less. Funny how that works.

Because it's under 1001 lbs, you wouldn't say it's not a danger to anyone who would stick their hand in it, would you?

No, I wouldn't say that, but that's not the criteria for what makes something hazardous material. If it were, then a bucket of rusty nails or old razor blades would be designated as HAZMAT. It's not about being dangerous to just anyone, or to just a few anyones, it's about being a potential dangerous threat, and unreasonably so, to the unwitting public at large. A 100 pound package of corrosive, unless it's in a concentration that designates it as being HAZMAT, doesn't present an unreasonable threat to the public at large. 1001 pounds would, tho.

Hazardous materials means any material that has been designated as hazardous under 49 U.S.C. 5103 and is required to be placarded under subpart F of 49 CFR part 172 or any quantity of a material listed as a select agent or toxin in 42 CFR part 73.

If you read that carefully a few times, it will eventually dawn on you that unless the material has been designated as hazardous, then it's not hazardous material. And it will also dawn that unless it is required to be placarded, it's equally not hazardous material.

A 5-gallon bucket of (non-water based) paint has to have a HAZMAT label on it, but a single 5-gallon bucket of paint is not a danger to the public or to the environment if it's spilled or if some goober sticks his hand in there, so it's not HAZMAT. On the other hand, forty 5-gallon buckets of paint, if spilled, would most definitely be a danger to the environment, and that's why that much paint all at once is HAZMAT, and why just 5 gallons isn't. And not all paints (like water-based paints) are even subject to being hazardous in quantities, just like not all corrosives are. It depends on the material (mostly its concentration) and the quantity.

Class 8 Corrosives are only considered HAZMAT at 1001 pounds or more, and less than 1001 pounds are not classified as HAZMAT. This isn't something I've figured out on my own, or heard from another trucker, or on the CB, or read on a Web forum. It's information I got directly from the FMCSA and the Code of Federal Regulations.

Do you have a hazmat endorsement??

Yes, I do.

I've been hauling hazmat for 18 years.....

Then I'm a little surprised, but then again I'm really not. When you haul HAZMAT in a cargo van you really have to know the particulars of this stuff, for a myriad of reasons, not the least of which is that scale master likes to pick us off like sitting ducks on a fence post. But in a straight truck or a big truck, some of the particulars don't matter, you just do everything the same and it doesn't matter.

But in a van, you have to really know what the difference is between Table 1 and Table 2, their reportable quantities, as well as knowing which types of HAZMAT you cannot even put into a cargo van regardless of the quantity. Class 6 6.1 (a&b) Poisons - Inhalation Hazards, for example, can go into a cargo van, but only if it is PG I that has been packed for PG III. If it's PG I and packed as PG I, then it cannot go into a cargo van, even one with a sealed bulkhead. This is stuff you don't need to be concerned with in a straight truck or in a big truck, but it's critical in a van, not only to keep from breaking the law, but it could mean your life.

Most people (and carriers) simply go with anything from Table 1 doesn't go on a van, and anything from Table 2 can. And some go as far as anything from Table 2, but not if it's 1001 pounds or more, because then the driver would need a CDL and the endorsement, and a lot of van drivers don't have either.

But you don't need to trust me on any of this. Go read the regulations for yourself. It's all in there. This is your job, so you might as well.

There's a lot of stuff I don't know (believe it or not), but one thing I do know is, some goober slapping a HAZMAT label on a package does not determine if the shipped freight is HAZMAT.

 

[paullud]

I thought you only had to placard the vehicle if the hazmat is a reportable quantity which varies based on the material.

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[BigStickJr]

If I load less than 1,000# of HAZMAT that does not require placards,should I stop for RR crossings ?

 

[Turtle]

I thought you only had to placard the vehicle if the hazmat is a reportable quantity which varies based on the material.

No. It works out that way as a fe facto result in many cases, as often the RQ is what makes it hazardous. But that's certainly not the case with all of them. The placarding is whether or not the material is designated as hazardous. Once a material is designated as hazardous, it is then that the reportable quantity comes into play. Many materials have a RQ that is well above the threshold for placarding.

The definition of Hazardous Material (includes hazardous substances, hazardous wastes, marine pollutants, and elevated temperature materials) is quoted above in one of the earlier posts (and can be found near the beginning of your trusty Hazardous Materials Compliance Handbook, which I trust everyone has committed to memory ).

But in addition to that there is the "Hazardous Substance" definition, which is not as inclusive as the "Hazardous Material" definition, in that is it defined as "a material, including its mixtures or solutions, that is listed in Appendix A to 172.101 and is in a quantity, in one package, that equals or exceeds the reportable quantity (RQ) listed in Appendix A."

Copper Cyanide (UN1587, Class 6.1 inhalation poison), for example, has a RQ of 10 pounds. It is from Table 1 and not Table 2, because it is an inhalation poison, so it must be placarded in any amount, even one pound. It's unlikely (although it could be part of a larger non-HAZMAT load), but you could get a 5 pound load of Cooper Cyanide, which is under the 10-pound RQ yet still must be placarded.

There are several materials which require placarding in any amount, or at 1001 pounds, but the RQ isn't until you get to 5000 pounds of the stuff.

Hexanes (UIN 1208, Class 3 flammable), is used in food processing but is also a large constituent of gasoline, and used to make iPhones (makes a great screen cleaner instead of alcohol, but it is absorbed through the skin and will make you sick). It comes from Table 2, not placardable under 1001 pounds, but placardable at more than that. It has a RQ of 5000 pounds.

Naphthalene is another one that doesn't get placarded until 1001 pounds, and the RQ is 5000 pounds. There's a bunch of them like that, so it would be a mistake to use the RQ as the litmus test for placarding.

Everything on Table 1 gets placarded regardless of quantity and regardless of the RQ. So the RQ doesn't really matter as to whether or not it gets placarded for that stuff. But everything on Table 2 has a RQ of at least 1000 pounds, far as I know.

Straight and big trucks really don't run across this all that much, because they will usually be carrying enough that requires placarding, be it from Table 1 or Table 2, regardless of the RQ (although they really should take a look at what the RQ is). But with vans, if you haul HAZMAT (and even if you don't, frankly), you should know this stuff. If someone hands a van driver some shipping papers and there's a 10-pound RQ on it, you'd better make sure that (a) you have a CDL and a HAZMAT endorsement, and (b) that it's even loadable on a van in the first place, because it comes from Table 1, and van loads off Table 1 are few and far between, generally.

 

[Turtle]

If I load less than 1,000# of HAZMAT that does not require placards,should I stop for RR crossings ?

If you have any load, regardless of weight, which does not require placards, then it's not HAZMAT.

As for stopping at RR crossings, it's certainly safer if you do, loaded or empty. If you are placarded, you are required to stop at RR crossings.

 

[aileron]

Turtle, this is the best explanation I have seen on HAZMAT so far. Couldn't have said it better myself.

Something to note, some carriers require you to go through HAZMAT procedures even if you only have a 5 gallon pail of paint. It is what they do. Also, these carriers require you to have a HAZMAT endorsement on your license even if you don't haul anything HAZMAT ever.

 

[Moot]

Well, I can't comment on that freight specifically, but if it's not required to be placarded, then it's not required to be marked as HAZMAT on the BOL.

That is a myopic view from a typical expediter. The freight world does not revolve around the single shipment/exclusive use shipper. Broaden your scope to include LTL and then think about shipping papers not indicating 500 pounds of flammable paint to be marked as HAZMAT.

City P&D driver Moot picks up two 450 pound drums of flammable paint. He then picks up a pallet of batteries weighing 600 pounds. Before he gets back to the terminal he makes another pickup that includes 999 pounds of corrosive floor cleaner and a pallet of powdered cheese.

At the terminal the 500 pound drum of paint is loaded on a road trailer that contains another drum of flammable paint, and several other flammable shipments from various shippers, all under 1001 pounds as individual shipments, but exceeding 1001 pounds in aggregate. This trailer would be required to display FLAMMABLE placards and if some other amount of HAZMAT was added, then Dangerous PLACARDS would be displayed.

Shipping orders must show an X in the HAZMAT column and a full description whether it's 1 pound of Flammable, etc, or 1001 pounds.

 

[Moot]

I just went through getting my drivers license...

It's about time! How many years have you been driving without a drivers license?

 

[jansiemoo]

That is a myopic view from a typical expediter. The freight world does not revolve around the single shipment/exclusive use shipper. Broaden your scope to include LTL and then think about shipping papers not indicating 500 pounds of flammable paint to be marked as HAZMAT.

City P&D driver Moot picks up two 450 pound drums of flammable paint. He then picks up a pallet of batteries weighing 600 pounds. Before he gets back to the terminal he makes another pickup that includes 999 pounds of corrosive floor cleaner and a pallet of powdered cheese.

At the terminal the 500 pound drum of paint is loaded on a road trailer that contains another drum of flammable paint, and several other flammable shipments from various shippers, all under 1001 pounds as individual shipments, but exceeding 1001 pounds in aggregate. This trailer would be required to display FLAMMABLE placards and if some other amount of HAZMAT was added, then Dangerous PLACARDS would be displayed.

Shipping orders must show an X in the HAZMAT column and a full description whether it's 1 pound of Flammable, etc, or 1001 pounds.

This is where I get caught up- I once had a shipment go from non-haz to hazmat shipment when the shipper decided to add a case of 12 cans of WD-40 to a load. Cans of WD-40 are ORM-D (aka-consumer commodity) and although I questioned it, the dispatcher insisted it become a hazmat load and the box on the bol be checked. In this situation and others, if it's not a type/quantity the requires placards, then should the bol have the "X"? I have been told many times that if it isn't a placarded load, I don't need to follow the hazmat routings or inform Ohio Turnpike.
I have read through the book, but I'm sick of getting conflicting answers from dispatch. Last month I had a "hazmat" load that was ORM-D, dispatcher didn't get it, had to shut up and call back after talking with her to get someone else...

 

[Turtle]

That is a myopic view from a typical expediter. The freight world does not revolve around the single shipment/exclusive use shipper.

That's very true, and I was making my comments in the context of expediting and exclusive use. I should have been more precise. Thanks.

 

[Dreamer]

Just remember, even tho it may not classify as a HAZMAT shipment, it is still dangerous material and you need to treat it as such.

Even if those 2 drums are only 900 lbs, Im darn tootin gonna strap them like crazy, and stop at railroad... if those suckers bounce loose, that 100 lbs is not gonna make much difference.

Again... its not a "HAZMAT defined" shipment, but you still realistically have Hazardous( to your health) materials onboard. It still needs special care.



Dale


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[Moot]

If it is listed in the Hazardous Materials Table, it is a hazardous material. (insert famous Davekc quote here)

 

[Turtle]

Just remember, even tho it may not classify as a HAZMAT shipment, it is still dangerous material and you need to treat it as such.

Even if those 2 drums are only 900 lbs, Im darn tootin gonna strap them like crazy, and stop at railroad... if those suckers bounce loose, that 100 lbs is not gonna make much difference.

You betcha. Even a 5-gallon bucket of paint, if that thing breaks open and spills inside the van, I've got a serious environmental disaster. Granted, it's very localized, but it's still pretty bad.

 

[Moot]

Painted Turtle?

 

[nightcreacher]

if the load is ha mat,no matter the size or weight,ity is to be marked on the bol and signed by the shipper.If the load is not required to be plackarded,driver still needs haz mat endorsement

 

[Turtle]

If it is listed in the Hazardous Materials Table, it is a hazardous material. (insert famous Davekc quote
here)

That's not entirely accurate. Within the realm of the real world, yes, that's true. But the DOT lives in their own world. Let's go visit DOT World, shall we?

"Hazardous Material" is not defined by the FMCSA as being whatever is on the Table of Hazardous Material, as retarded as that statement sounds. It sure would be a heck of a lot simpler if it was, and it sure makes perfect sense that it is. But you can't use common sense with these people (DOT, FMCSA, et al.). You have to go by precisely what they say, no more no less, don't add anything to it, make assumptions, logical or otherwise, nor dismiss any of it. They've got people who do nothing but sit around and discuss how things need to be worded. That's their job, that's all they do. And they have to by law justify their rulings. The wording of the rules is very precise.

OK, the whole HAZMAT deal is, it's all about protecting the public, the environment, and the people who come in contact with hazardous materials (shippers, drivers, loaders and unloaders, etc.). It's in that order, and it's in the scope of those narrow parameters in which the rules are devised and justified. Once you think within that box, once you live in their world, the rules begin to make sense. Not common everyday sense, not normal sense, but sense within the scope of the reasons for having the rules.

You can't figure out what it is, you can't assume anything, you have to go and read, very carefully, the definition of "Hazardous Material". The definition is not "Everything which appears in the Table of Hazardous Materials".

The definition is: Hazardous materials means any material that has been designated as hazardous under 49 U.S.C. 5103 and is required to be placarded under subpart F of 49 CFR part 172 or any quantity of a material listed as a select agent or toxin in 42 CFR part 73.

Break it down so you know what you are reading, without having to make assumptions (or have to use common sense). First, you have to know what 49 U.S.C. 5103 is, because only material which has been designated as hazardous under that regulation is considered hazardous, as the definition mentions no other way for such material to be so designated. It is very precise. 49 USC is part 49 of the United States Code of Federal Regulations (49 USC CHAPTER 51 - TRANSPORTATION OF HAZARDOUS MATERIAL), and Section 5103 defines what the Secretary of Transportation's authority is in being able to designate material as "hazardous material". It doesn't list actual materials, it only gives the Secretary the authority to designate materials as hazardous. And, only the Secretary can do so, as no one outside the authority of 5103 can designate something as hazardous.

The statute reads...
Sec. 5103. General regulatory authority

-STATUTE-
(a) Designating Material as Hazardous. - The Secretary shall
designate material (including an explosive, radioactive material,
infectious substance, flammable or combustible liquid, solid, or
gas, toxic, oxidizing, or corrosive material, and compressed gas)
or a group or class of material as hazardous when the Secretary
determines that transporting the material in commerce in a
particular amount and form may pose an unreasonable risk to health
and safety or property.

Again, very precise. Note the "particular amount and form", which gives the Secretary the authority to designate a material as being hazardous or not, depending on the amount and form of the material being transported.

Think about that for a minute, as it is important. It means there are materials which pose an unreasonable risk to health and safety or property in particular amounts and forms, but in other particular amounts and forms it might not post an unreasonable risk to the same. Moreover, the statute explicitly states that the Secretary shall designate material as hazardous only when the Secretary determines the material to be hazardous in a particular form and amount. The Secretary does not have the authority to designate any and all amounts and forms of a material as being hazardous, unless the material poses an unreasonable risk (as determined by the Secretary, of course). But that's important, as the Secretary must also, by law, justify his determinations. So he can't take the quick and easy way out, either.

There is also 5103a, which is a part of 5103, and deals with the issuing of licenses (HAZMAT endorsements) and defines the authority and restrictions on issuing them.

So, 49 U.S.C. 5103 gives the Secretary of Transportation the authority to designate material in certain amounts and forms as being hazardous, but in order to meet the definition of "Hazardous Material" the material must also be required to be placarded under subpart F of 49 CFR part 172. (Or be any quantity of a material listed as a select agent or toxin in 42 CFR part 73, which we'll get to in a bit, but that's separate and apart from the authority granted to the Secretary in 5103.)

(This is really boring so far, I know, but hang in there. We're getting to the juice part.)

So, what is subpart F of 49 CFR part 172? Since that's the meat and potatoes of what makes something "Hazardous Material", as unless it is required to be placarded under subpart F of 49 CFR part 172, then it's not "Hazardous Material", so we need to know what the heck subpart F of 49 CFR part 172 consists of.

Electronic Code of Federal Regulations: SUBCHAPTER C--HAZARDOUS MATERIALS REGULATIONS, Part 172

CFR part 172 "lists and classifies those materials which the Department has designated as hazardous materials for purposes of transportation and prescribes the requirements for shipping papers, package marking, labeling, and transport vehicle placarding applicable to the shipment and transportation of those hazardous materials."

OK, now that we know what CFR part 172 is, we need to know what subpart F is, because it is subpart F which determines whether or not something needs to be placarded.

Subpart F has all the rules and regulations, including special requirements and exceptions for placarding. The key to the definition of "Hazardous Material" is whether or not subpart F requires placarding (the Secretary can designate a material, but that material must be required to be placarded). So, the key part of subpart F is the General Placarding Requirements, subpart F, 172.504, which contains the familiar Table 1 and Table 2 we have all come to know and love, some more than others.

§ 172.504 General placarding requirements.

(a) General. Except as otherwise provided in this subchapter, each bulk packaging, freight container, unit load device, transport vehicle or rail car containing any quantity of a hazardous material must be placarded on each side and each end with the type of placards specified in tables 1 and 2 of this section and in accordance with other placarding requirements of this subpart, including the specifications for the placards named in the tables and described in detail in §§172.519 through 172.560. {172.519 through 172.560 describes each placard in detail}

(c) Exception for less than 454 kg (1,001 pounds). Except for bulk packagings and hazardous materials subject to §172.505 {Subsidiary hazards like inhalation hazards, radioactive, dangerous when wet}, when hazardous materials covered by table 2 of this section are transported by highway or rail, placards are not required on—

(1) A transport vehicle or freight container which contains less than 454 kg (1001 pounds) aggregate gross weight of hazardous materials covered by table 2 of paragraph (e) of this section;

There you have it. Materials which are designated by the Secretary of Transportation and is required to be placarded under subpart F of 49 CFR part 172 meets the definition of "Hazardous Material".

So, nowhere in the definition of "Hazardous Material" or in the placarding requirements of CFR part 172 does it state that simply being included on the Table of Hazardous Materials (172.101) means that it's hazardous material (within the scope of the regulation). If those very narrow and precise requirements are not met, then the material is not "Hazardous Material" (HAZMAT).

It's that simple. You don't need to add to or embellish the regulations to mold them into something different. You can't reason things out logically, you can't use common sense. You must go with the precise wording of the regulations. Your hard earned tax dollars paid for those regulations and their wording, so you might as well know what they are.

Oh, I almost forgot. There are two parts to the definition of "Hazardous Materials". "...or any quantity of a material listed as a select agent or toxin in 42 CFR part 73."

42 CFR part 73 is the laws governing the Department of Health and Human Services: Quarantine, Inspection and Licensing, SELECT AGENTS AND TOXINS. Items on the list of SELECT AGENTS AND TOXINS are designated as "Hazardous Material" and have their own set of special rules governing their transport.

To sum up, according to the DOT and the FMCSA (and they're the only ones that matter), a material is not HAZMAT unless it meets the definition of "Hazardous Material", which is clearly and precisely defined as material which requires placarding (or material on the list of Select Toxins and Agents).

There are materials which require placarding only in certain amounts and forms, because in those amounts and forms they are considered to be an unreasonable risk to the public or the environment, but in different forms and amounts they are not considered to be an unreasonable risk. It would be easy to say that everything on the Table of Hazardous Materials is HAZMAT (or because it's got a cute little miniature HAZMAT placard sticker on the packaging, it's HAZMAT), but by statute the Secretary of Transportation nor anyone else can do that, as the Secretary must justify a particular amount and form as being an unreasonable risk to health and environment. That's the reason for Table 2, and reason in which the items on that table which are not required to be placarded are not designated as HAZMAT.

The regulations for packaging, labeling, and shipping papers are also equally as precisely defined and detailed in part 172. I encourage you to become intimately familiar with those regulations, because you cannot apply common sense to any of them, either, unless you stick within the realm of DOT World.

if the load is ha mat,no matter the size or weight,ity is to be marked on the bol and signed by the shipper.

Absolutely true.

If the load is not required to be plackarded,driver still needs haz mat endorsement

Absolutely not true.

 

[Dreamer]

But if its got that "cute little sticker" , I want my Hazmat pay!


Dale

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[Turtle]

But if its got that "cute little sticker" , I want my Hazmat pay!

That's just one of the many benefits of shippers, 3PLs in particular, and dispatchers not knowing the rules and regulations as well as they should.

I've gotten HAZMAT pay for ORM-D stuff.

 

[Moot]

Turtle, I'm still reeling from our Thursday afternoon phone debate. Sorry about the elevated decibels from my end, but hey, it really was the airplanes overhead, being just north of O'Hare and all. Give me a few more days to digest all of this. As of now I'm still sticking with the if it's listed on the HAZMAT table, it's HAZMAT.

 

[Turtle]

Elevated decibels? I didn't notice any. I understand how people are passionate about what they think they know when contradicted. I know I am. And I know that especially in things like this that people will use their own experiences, what they've seen, what they've been told, what they read and retained because it was important at the time, instead of sometimes going and finding out for sure.

As of now I'm still sticking with the if it's listed on the HAZMAT table, it's HAZMAT.

Believe what you want, but it won't change the definition of HAZMAT.