General Economic Conditions Continue to Deteriorate

arkjarhead

Veteran Expediter
My macroeconomics professor, Dr.Grabber, may not know what he is talking about but he claims we are not in a recession. Of ocurse he is not a liberal either. I mean the guy only has a Phd in Economics so he may not know that much about it.
 

iceroadtrucker

Veteran Expediter
Driver
Just remember,money is the easiest commodity to replace.


Ya monie is the easy thing. I here ya steve.

Truth. But then again some try to keep up with the Jones

and others are just satisified till some one rocks the boat so to speak.

Ya know I seen a post card that had a picture of a Donkey in Sun glasses in Mississippi when I was in Olive Branch

Reminded me of someone.:)
 

ATeam

Senior Member
Retired Expediter
My macroeconomics professor, Dr.Grabber, may not know what he is talking about but he claims we are not in a recession. Of ocurse he is not a liberal either. I mean the guy only has a Phd in Economics so he may not know that much about it.

Among PhD economists in academia, Wall Street experts, financial journalists and economists employed by large corporations and trade associations, some say we are in a recession and some say we are not.

I agree with those who say we are in a recession. Who is right and who is wrong will become known when the National Bureau of Economic Research Business Cycle Dating Committee dates the recession as described above.

One of the people who says we are in a recession is Martin Feldstein. Him having served as President Regan's chief economic advisor, it would be a stretch to characterize him as a liberal, simply because he believes we are now in a recession.

Viewing the economy through political filters clouds one's view of the economy. It's not about what the liberals or conservatives are doing. It's about what the economy is doing.

When listening to people talk about the economy, it is helpful to ask, "What is he or she trying to be right about?" While it is not uncommon to hear people eager to score political points by assigning credit or blame for economic results, such people are not talking about the economy. They are talking about politics. It takes some effort separate the wheat from the chaff when listening to economic opinions.

My approach is to disregard the politics and focus on the big-picture numbers (and not an over-simplified indicator like GDP alone). Yes, politics influences the economy, but in the long run, the economy is more powerful than any political force, I believe.
 
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arkjarhead

Veteran Expediter
I don't remember Regan being President, but what I have heard about Reganomics I wouldn't trust his top economic advisor any farther than I can throw a Peterbilt.
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
"My approach is to disregard the politics and focus on the big-picture numbers (and not an over-simplified indicator like GDP alone). Yes, politics influences the economy, but in the long run, the economy is more powerful than any political force, I believe."

Well Phil, the problem with your approach is it is flawed. You complicated the matter by bringing up the subject in a way to force an examination of the larger picture and put emphasis on how it effects the overall climate for everyone.

Not saying that there is a cause and effect here but as I said, the bigger picture does not matter to the average person who is trying to work, feed their kids and pay off the house. They know that politics has a direct bearing on their lives through the economy and that politics can ruin it or make it prosper.

IN fact Phil, politics casts a huge shadow over the economic condition of the country and even the world. Just tax code changes can bring people, industries and even the country to a stop. At the point of the FDR's third term, the economy ceased to be able to function without the political intervention from the federal government.
 

ATeam

Senior Member
Retired Expediter
There has been some good discussion in this thread about how recessions are actually defined. I was doing some back-reading of the Economist magazine today and came across this piece in which the writers discuss the subject.

Excerpt:

"To the average person, a large rise in unemployment means a recession. By contrast, the economists’ rule that a recession is defined by two consecutive quarters of falling GDP is silly. If an economy grows by 2% in one quarter and then contracts by 0.5% in each of the next two quarters, it is deemed to be in recession. But if GDP contracts by 2% in one quarter, rises by 0.5% in the next, then falls by 2% in the third, it escapes, even though the economy is obviously weaker. In fact, America’s GDP did not decline for two consecutive quarters during the 2001 recession. (emphasis mine)

"However, it is not just the “two-quarter” rule that is flawed; GDP figures themselves can be misleading. The first problem is that they are subject to large revisions....

".... As the old joke goes: when your neighbour loses his job, it is called an economic slowdown. When you lose your job, it is a recession. But when an economist loses his job, it becomes a depression. Economists who ignore the recent rise in unemployment deserve to lose their jobs."

How is this relevant to expediers? In general terms, when the economy slows down (recession), freight slows down.
 
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OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
I know this applies to us that do alot of automotive BUT if the assembly plants slow down it allows the part makers to catch up the short fall ELIMINATING the EXPEDITE need, some actually might even get ahead thus making it worse for us...Hence to find a carrier that diversifies it's customer base all that more important.
 

tallcal101

Veteran Expediter
Call it what ever you like Greg,Shooter etc,you voted for it twice and you can lick your own wounds in whatever manner you like.You can lick each others wounds and blame the Iraq's,maybe the Clintons and continue to live with collective heads in the dark space below you waist and between your knees. Just turn around after yiur shower and you can closely exam where you live. Your not alone,all the two voters out there can also exercize their right to turn around,spread them wide and extract your heads aaytime you wish.
In the meantime,those of us you tried to warn you will fight like mad dogs with and without lipstick to defeat the scouage of one more republican idiot at the controls. Any body need flashlight? I imagine it's rather dark in there. after all this time.
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
Nope Tallcal my freind, I am left with little choice and I am angry at the party of the people - the repubs.

I don't want to vote for McCain but I can't vote for a marxist. Little choice for me, I can see with Obama my taxes going up and I end up living in my truck. For people who are marginally making it, Obama will be a disaster. For those who don't pay taxes and live off of the government, it will be a boom for them.

Remember Tallcal, a vote for Obama is a vote for the politariate. If you desire real change, Obama change, then go vote for the great walking on water Obama - make Lenin proud.
 

ATeam

Senior Member
Retired Expediter
Earlier in this thread I said,

"The federal government can take certain actions that have certain effects, and will often do so for political reasons. But that affects the larger forces no more than putting up a dike affects the water.

"You might be able to change the water's path for a time, but not without causing other things to happen across the bank, upstream or downstream. And even with your best efforts and intentions, the dike may still give way.

"For example, not long ago, the Federal Reserve Bank stepped in to keep Bear Stearns from collapsing and thereby prevent a market meltdown. A dike was built, and indeed, a market meltdown was averted. But the water continued to flow.

"In July, the U.S. Treasury Department, in an effort to calm market nerves, promised to stand behind Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae. A dike was built, but the water continued to flow.

"This weekend, political people decided another dike needed to be built to seize Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae to avert a market meltdown. But the water continues to flow, as it always does."

That was a week or so ago. This weekend we are treated to news reports of a $700 billion bailout program, that is insulated from court challenges, and drafted by people who recently assured us the economy was fundamentally sound. (News article on the plan)

The reason for the plan? Markets had not just threatened to melt down, they in fact did. Banks had stopped lending money to each other. Institutional investors created a run on certain money market funds.

As I write this, our "leaders" are building yet another dike, apparently deluded that they have the power to fix things, this time for sure. But the water will continue to flow.

If this package goes through, and all indications are that it will, the only way for our already deeply in debt nation to fund the package is to print money. That will devalue the dollar and redirect international capital flows.

For us on the road, that means more trouble ahead. The power elite are convinced that the solution to the crisis is to give them more power. The banks are saying taxpayers will profit from this plan if the banks and investment houses are allowed to fob bad paper off onto the government that they are not wishing to keep themselves. They say the plan will stimulate lending when they are unwilling to lend even to themselves, let alone to Joe Sixpack who is already over-extended and unworthy of more credit.

As with the dikes built in previous days, weeks and months, the efforts are misdirected. The solution does not lie in passing losses off from one entity to another. It lies in letting the people and institutions that created the crisis sustain their losses and thereby work the bad debts out of the economy.

I know of no painless way to get out of the mess the easy-credit party created, other than to suffer through the hangover and learn what lessons there are to be learned. But our nation's collective unwillingness to take the pain, and efforts to either push it off onto other people or push it into the future will only make things worse in the long run.

General economic conditions continue to deteriorate, and the water continues to flow.
 
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ATeam

Senior Member
Retired Expediter
Phil,

I'm going to wait for your 2008 recession prediction to come true before I try to process your next iteration of doom and gloom.

eb

Fair enough, ebsprintin. You posted your words on 9/7/07, presumably in response to my words in this post of 9/2/07:

"No one knows when it will come or how severe it will be. My own best guess (and it is nothing more than that, one man's best guess), is the recession will begin in late 2007 or early 2008. To prepare for it, I suggest that you be ready to run your expediting business for six months to a year with 50% of the gross revenue you are earning now. Preparing to do that may be overkill, but it is better to be safe than sorry."

Today (12/1/08), a recession was officially pronounced.

From Bloomberg:

"Dec. 1 (Bloomberg) -- The U.S. economy entered a recession a year ago this month, the panel that dates American business cycles said today, making this contraction already the longest since 1982." Full story

Now for the good news. A CNBC.com article on the topic said, "In a news release, the group said its cycle dating committee held a telephone conference call on Friday and concluded that the 73-month economic expansion had ended. The previous expansion of the 1990s lasted 120 months."

I believe the longest post-war recession lasted 16 months (there were two of that duration). So, if we are 12 months into the current recession, even if this one lasts longer than most others, we may have more of it behind us than ahead of us.

The above-mentioned expansions ranged from 73 to 120 months. Better days are ahead, and more of them.

Expediters who can make it through 2009 should be able to enjoy improving general economic conditions for quite some time.
 
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simon says

Veteran Expediter
Charter Member
PS. FYI- the LTL freight is falling the fastest- go figure. Most shipping now being done is truckload stuff. I have talked to a few big truck owners/drivers in Canada recently- and they sit almost as long as we have...Point: you will be seeing less of that LTL crap, unless you haul as cheap as that outfit from TN. with the sleeper/cot inside the box...
 

simon says

Veteran Expediter
Charter Member
Stick with it Phil... I do not always agree with everything you say, but you have the nerve to see the world as it is, not as you would like it to be. I doubt the worst is behind us: I thought October was not so great- then I made a lateral move to be closer to home. That is turning out to be a big mistake- the last 2 weeks have been a nightmare on Elm St. It is like the switch was turned off after the bailout bill was passed, but that was already two bailouts back by now...and the banks just sit and hoard the money so they can more directly control society by buying up other banks...
 

davekc

Senior Moderator
Staff member
Fleet Owner
Should come as no surprise. Many wrote and knew this was coming several years ago. About the time we seen posts about "being a millionaire", I'm pre-dispatched all the time", and not to be left out, the long winded flowery tourist stories that went on and on. I also remember those posts of chastizement that said "oh your too negative". However, we are now at that point that was discussed then and a handful said could never happen.
Surprise.:eek: That time has arrived.
 

ATeam

Senior Member
Retired Expediter
Should come as no surprise. Many wrote and knew this was coming several years ago. About the time we seen posts about "being a millionaire", I'm pre-dispatched all the time", and not to be left out, the long winded flowery tourist stories that went on and on. I also remember those posts of chastizement that said "oh your too negative". However, we are now at that point that was discussed then and a handful said could never happen.
Surprise.:eek: That time has arrived.

Let's assume, DaveKC, that I am among those you refer to, since I have made posts about becoming a millionaire expediter, and written "flowery tourist stories" (see my Stories From the Road on my web site).

I have not said Diane and I are predispatched all the time. I have said we are frequently predispatched and that remains true today. In the last couple months we have run fewer loads than before. But when on loads, predispatched loads come at the same rate as in busier times. We have never tracked our actual percentage of predispatched loads to non-predispatched loads so I cannot provide specific numbers.

Still, if we are on a load, it is as likely as not that the next load will be predispatched. What has changed is that the predispatch may be for a pickup a day or two later instead of a pickup that is the same day or next.

Surprised I am, not by a recession, but by the staggering bailouts and spending the government is doing in response. I am not alone in that.

While we were taking in tourist attractions and writing stories about them, we were also making excellent money and using it to pay off the truck at an accelerated pace. The revenue reports were true. The tourist stories were true. Flowery perhaps, but also absolutely, positively, and factually true. They were also balanced with stories about setbacks and the negative aspects of the business.

I call them as I see them, Dave. In easy times, I spoke of the great money and great fun we enjoyed. Now that hard times have come, I am speaking about the current state of the economy and how it affects business. Ours is not a business plan based on good times only. It is a plan for all seasons and it is working.

We got into this business in 2003 with five stated goals. Nothing has happened that requires us to change our goals or lifestyle on the road. The current slowdown is changing the pace at which we are approaching the achievement of certain financial goals but that is to be expected as the economy ebbs and flows. About our ability to achieve the goals we set, there is no doubt (excepting death or disability, of course).

My blog has reduced the frequency at which I now write my Stories From the Road. But regular readers of my web site see we are still having fun out here, love the business as much as ever, and continue to do what it takes to prosper in this business.

Freight has slowed for us in the last couple of months, and revenue with it. It is not a problem because we are debt free, we are putting our spare time to productive use, and we expect things to pick up sooner or later. It will be sooner for us instead of later, we believe, because people leaving the industry will rebalance the ratio of freight to trucks.

But if we are wrong about that and the hard times persist, we have the ability to haul NO freight for a full year and remain solvent. That's because we made hay while the sun shined.

Put another way, we did the same thing the Pharoh (Genesis 41) did when he learned from Joseph that seven good years would be followed by seven years of famine. He used the seven good years to fill the storehouses.

We could easily haul more freight and run the wheels off this truck if we reduced our price. Some are doing so now. We are not among them. Doing that is the same thing as eating your seed corn. It gets you buy for a while but creates problems in the future.

Could we reconfigure the truck, carrier relationship or freight-finding ways? Sure we could. But that would take us off the lifestyle goals we set when we entered the business. Instead, we are making good use of the spare time slow freight gives us and running profitable loads as they come.

With fewer loads, our revenue has delcined, and so have our expenses. Fixed costs remain unchanged but variable costs decline when fewer miles are driven. Profits remain and we continue to put money in the bank, just not as much as before. No worries here. The storehouses are full.
 
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davekc

Senior Moderator
Staff member
Fleet Owner
The issue I was driving at was many were overextending themselves with debt during the boom time and assuming during those times based everything on those revenue numbers.
Many percieved those warning posts of several years ago as someone just being negative.
I think some were confusing negativity with reality.
Many were new and had nothing to compare it to except what was written. The ones that extended themselves are now struggling because they didn't put that extra away, or got accustom to taking a lot of time off and now are paying the price.
As far as the massive bailouts, no surprise except for the staggering amounts. The biggest percentage of politicians are bought by the very same folks getting the bailouts.
 

ATeam

Senior Member
Retired Expediter
However, we are now at that point that was discussed then and a handful said could never happen.
Surprise.:eek: That time has arrived.

This statement confuses me. If you want the point to stick, you will need to be more specific, as in providing a link to where someone said "could never happen." What exactly are you talking about?
 

ATeam

Senior Member
Retired Expediter
The issue I was driving at was many were overextending themselves with debt during the boom time and assuming during those times based everything on those revenue numbers.
Many percieved those warning posts of several years ago as someone just being negative.
I think some were confusing negativity with reality.

Or, they were engaging in selective research, believing only the parts of the expediting story they wanted to believe. Not unlike the millions of homeowners who believed their real estate values would continue to grow to the sky and they would always be able to refinance.

It is not uncommon for aspiring business owners to believe what they want to believe about the opportunities ahead and discount information that challenge the beliefs. That is part of the reason, if not the main reason, why the failure rate in startup business of any kind are high.
 

ATeam

Senior Member
Retired Expediter
What's coming next? I believe:

- Home prices will continue to decline

- As bank failures increase, the FDIC will run out of money and require a taxpayer bailout.

- In the stock market, we will see a Dow of 10,000 before we see 15,000.

- The economy will slow more and recovery will not come soon.

In good times or bad, it is wise to live within your means and get out of debt. It is especially so in bad times.


While this thread is less than a year old, it feels like eons have passed since the Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac bailout was making headlines.

I update it today because of the FDIC item in today's news. When I said the FDIC would run out of money and need a bailout, I did not imagine a $700 billion bank bailout would come first. Had it not, the FDIC would have needed funds much sooner. Now, after TARP, FDIC is letting it be known that it is running out of money (see WSJ story). A special member-bank assessment is being made. More money may be needed later, the FDIC says.

Looking ahead, an optimistic tone has been struck in recent days in Wall Street circles. The reason: people are pointing to numbers that show not that the economic decline has stopped or reveresed, but that it has slowed. In other words, we are still going down, but at a slower rate.

I believe the optomistic tone comes not from the numbers as much as from human nature. People are sick and tired of being sick and tired. Wanting to feel good for a change, they are latching to whatever little bit of news there is that can be spun into something good.

The latest edition of The Trucker has headlines, "Too Little Freight, Too Many Trucks." and "Economists: freight uptick may happen at end of year, but don't hold your breath."

For truckers living load-by-load now, the end of the year is a long, long time away. To the extent that mood is an indicator of any kind, methinks the mood on Wall Street is premature and the mood at truckstops is the better indicator.
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
Wasn't there a discussion about locking threads over 90 days old?

I think it should be done seeing that this thread's last post was 165 days ago and just updating the info is useless where it should be a new thread.
 
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