For Pete's sake

muttly

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
I like Pete Rose and like listening to him talk about baseball in general because he has a lot of blunt talk and interesting insights to the game. I disagree that he should be in the hall of fame because he bet on baseball, while being a manager of a mlb team. I also disagree with his comments that players, who used steroids, should make the hall. They cheated so they should be out. I do agree with him though that Detroit's Jack Morris and Alan Trammel should be in.
 

Doggie Daddy

Veteran Expediter
The hall of fame is for the fans, and I believe the overwhelming opinion of the fans is that Pete should be eligible for enshrinement in the hall.

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using EO Forums mobile app
 

muttly

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
The hall of fame is for the fans, and I believe the overwhelming opinion of the fans is that Pete should be eligible for enshrinement in the hall.

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using EO Forums mobile app

It might be a large part for the fans, but the H.O.F. has a standard that keeps players out. Whether it is because the players statistics aren't good enough,they cheated(steroid use) to get an advantage, or used their position like managing a baseball team and at the same time betting on baseball, even to the point of betting for against their own team. If it is for the fans, then let everyone in so that all the fans could see ALL the players they rooted for. If they did that ,they should change the name from the Hall of Fame to The Hall of Baseball People.
 

paullud

Veteran Expediter
I don't believe Pete Rose bet against his team, he bet that they would win. There is nothing wrong with that and sports snobs should let it go. Players are always betting that their team will win or lose and always with millions of dollars on the line, they do that by staying or demanding a trade. Baseball has always had stuff lurking behind the scenes from illegal drugs like methamphetamine and coke getting used by baseball players in the good ole days to the steroids of today. The idea that one of the best players of all time can't get in simply for placing a wager is asinine.

Sent from my ADR6400L using EO Forums mobile app
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
Rules are rules...they should be respected
Ah, I was waiting for someone to say that. :D

First, it doesn't matter whether you bet for or against your own team. Rule 21 makes no distinction as to who you place your bets upon. There was no evidence whatsoever that Pete Rose bet against the Reds. But as Hall of Famer Hal McCoy said, "The major problem with Rose betting on baseball, particularly the Reds, is that as manager he could control games, make decisions that could enhance his chances of winning his bets, thus jeopardizing the integrity of the game."

Plus there are also problems with legal sportbooking, like in Vegas, where the oddmakers know when Pete Rose is and is not betting on his own team. If he's not betting on his own team that particular night, is it because he thinks they won't win? The odds changed dramatically depending on whether Pete did or not not bet on the Reds. Also, the lineup card can change depending on whether or not Pete has a bet on tonight's or tomorrow's game. Does he play this guy tonight, or save him for tomorrow when he's going to place a large bet on the game? Does he continue to play a guy who is hurt, instead of resting him, because he needs him in there to win a bet?

Clearly, betting on baseball, either for or against your own team, is repugnant and affects the integrity of the game.

Still, betting on baseball and being kicked out of the game does not preclude you from being voted into the Hall of Fame. Or at least it didn't use to.

When a player retires from the game, after 5 years to the day he becomes eligible for the Hall of Fame. Pete Rose officially retired from the game on November 11, 1986. Which means that on November 11, 1991 he would be eligible to be voted in to the Hall of Fame.

He Managed the Reds for 4 full seasons, from 1985-1988, with the first two years being as a player-manager. But he never bet on games until he retired from playing baseball, as the evidence showed.

On August 24, 1989, two years before he would become eligible for the Hall of Fame, Rose voluntarily accepted a permanent place on baseball’s ineligible list (the Ineligible to Perform list). Rose accepted that there was a factual reason for the ban, and in return, Major League Baseball agreed to make no formal finding with regard to the gambling allegations. According to baseball's rules, Rose could apply for reinstatement in one year. He accepted the ban to then-Commissioner Bart Giamatti, who immediately held a press conference and threw Pete Rose under the bus, stating that he believed Pete Rose bet on baseball. So much for no formal finding. <snort>

Eight days later, on September 1, 1989, Bart Giamatti died of a heart attack at the age of 51. A heavy smoker all his life, Giamatti's closest friend for many years, Bud Selig, wondered aloud if the stress from the Pete Rose situation didn't have a lot to do with his death, stating it was probably Pete Rose, more so than the smoking, that killed him.

After the new Commissioner, Fay Vincent, slammed the owners for collusion, singling out especially Brewers owner Bud Selig and White Sox owner Jerry Reisendorf for the rigging of free agent signings and other actions (where they were caught red-handed and had to pay the players $280 million damages), Bud Selig as the chairman of the owner's Executive Council of Major League Baseball, orchestrated the removal of Giamatti as Commissioner, and then assumed the position himself with the full endorsement of the owners.

In 1990, Selig became a member of the Hall of Fame's Board of Directors. Both he and Commissioner Fay Vincent had made it quite clear that they didn't want to see Pete Rose in the Hall of Fame. When Selig became an influential member of the Board, along with the Commissioner who is also automatically on the Board, it didn't take much arm-twisting of the other members of the Board (most of whom are former players and executives of MLB) to change things the way they wanted them to be. And one of the main things they wanted was to have Pete Rose not be in the Hall of Fame, who's time for eligibility to be voted in by the BBWAA (Baseball Writers Association of America) was rapidly approaching. The writers have been unpredictable in the past, and Selig and a few others didn't want to take the chance that the writers would vote him in.

So, the Hall of Fame, under pressure from the Commissioner of Baseball and Bud Selig, instituted a brand new, never before existed, rule for Hall of Fame eligibility. The Rule was created on February 8, 1991, just months before Rose was to become eligible. It's a rule widely known as the "Pete Rose Rule". The Rule states:
3. Eligible Candidates -- Candidates to be eligible must meet the following requirements:

E. Any player on Baseball's ineligible list shall not be an eligible candidate.

That's the rule that make Pete Rose ineligible to be in the Hall of Fame. It's the very definition of an ex post facto law, where the rules change and then you are subject to them before they even existed. It's like getting a ticket today, for running a stop sign 6 months ago, despite the stop sign not being installed until last week.

If the rule had been in existence when he was playing or managing or when he accepted the ban, the chances of Pete Rose volunteering to be placed on the list is zero. He broke the rules after he quite playing, because the risk of being banned from ever playing the game wasn't an issue. It's also very likely that if he knew he was risking not even being allowed to be considered for the Hall of Fame, since he was a lock to be enshrined there, that he would have never gambled at all on baseball in the first place.

So, yes, rules are rules, and they should be respected, but the Hall of Fame changed the rules on Pete Rose. And it sucks. The Hall of Fame used to be a magical place, and it largely still is. But I can't get past the fact that it's now a place controlled by people who hypocritically are damaging integrity of the game in favor of their own politics and petty vindictiveness. Selig reinstated his friend George Steinbrenner from the permanently suspended list shortly after he became Commissioner. He also suspended Reds owner Marge Schott for, officially, racially insensitive and prejudicial remarks, but it was also on the heels of her publicly calling him a "petty little man" in criticizing Selig for his refusal to even consider her friend Pete Rose's requests for reinstatement to the game.

I think Pete Rose will eventually be elected to the Hall of Fame. But he won't live to see it, and neither will Bud Selig. Ironically, if you go to the Hall of Fame Museum, which houses the Hall itself, you can't turn a corner without seeing Pete Rose. He's everywhere. His numbers demand it.
 
Last edited:

aristotle

Veteran Expediter
I am hoping Pete's induction is not posthumously granted. He was and is a great ambassador of baseball. How many hits or times-at-bat does Selig have? How many times did Giamatti bring 50,000 people to a wild standing ovation?

Put Pete to a vote.
 
Last edited:

Ragman

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
I am hoping Pete's induction is not posthumously granted. He was and is a great ambassador of baseball. How many hits or times-at-bat does Selig have? How many times did Giamatti bring 50,000 people to a wild standing ovation?

Put Pete to a vote.
pete-rose.jpg
 

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
I am hoping Pete's induction is not posthumously granted. He was and is a great ambassador of baseball. How many hits or times-at-bat does Selig have? How many times did Giamatti bring 50,000 people to a wild standing ovation?

Put Pete to a vote.

Just talked to Turtle on the phone and he explained to me about the Pete Rose rule so. There was no rule about banning from the Hall of Fame only banning from the game.
 

AMonger

Veteran Expediter
Just talked to Turtle on the phone and he explained to me about the Pete Rose rule so. There was no rule about banning from the Hall of Fame only banning from the game.

He's past the window of time players have to be considered for the HOF. Should one more rule be tossed into the garbage bin for this guy? Hasn't he broken enough rules already?
 

Moot

Veteran Expediter
Owner/Operator
Eight days later, on September 1, 1989, Bart Giamatti died of a heart attack at the age of 51. A heavy smoker all his life, Giamatti's closest friend for many years, Bud Selig, wondered aloud if the stress from the Pete Rose situation didn't have a lot to do with his death, stating it was probably Pete Rose, more so than the smoking, that killed him.
I believe Bud Sleazig also blamed Giamatti's hemorrhoids on George Brett. Good thing Sleazig is a perfect asswhole.
 

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
He's past the window of time players have to be considered for the HOF. Should one more rule be tossed into the garbage bin for this guy? Hasn't he broken enough rules already?
apparently he broke 1 rule that would ban him from the GAME, at the time of the offense there was NO rule pertaining to banishment from HOF.....THEY made that rule AFTER, Rose was banned..... that rule is famously called the Pete Rose rule because of that...

he should REMAIN banned from the game...not from the HOF.....he got screwed on that one...
 
Last edited:

muttly

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
In light of Turtle's analysis, I guess I don't have a problem with Rose being in the H.O.F. Keep him banned from baseball though. They should also keep the steroid users out of H.O.F. They cheated while they were playing the game. Again, Alan Trammell and Jack Morris should be in.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
I do believe Rose should be in the HoF. Same with Trammel and Morris. And Dave Concepcion. But that's just one opinion. The difference is, the BBWAA voters get to decide Trammel and Morris, and Concepcion, but they aren't even allowed to decide on Rose. The only reason Rose's "window of time" has passed is because just as he stepped up to the window someone slammed the drapes shut.
 

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
Just a thought...if they ban someone for drug steriod use....in theory...their record is expunged,therefore no stats, like they did not exist
 
Top