flunker

[Slacktide]

Well here ya go folks. 49 CFR 383.95 is the regulation regarding CDL restrictions.

Title 49: Transportation
PART 383—COMMERCIAL DRIVER'S LICENSE STANDARDS; REQUIREMENTS AND PENALTIES
Subpart F—Vehicle Groups and Endorsements


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§ 383.95 Restrictions.
(a) Air brake. (1) If an applicant either fails the air brake component of the knowledge test, or performs the skills test in a vehicle not equipped with air brakes, the State must indicate on the CLP or CDL, if issued, that the person is restricted from operating a CMV equipped with any type of air brakes.

(2) For the purposes of the skills test and the restriction, air brakes include any braking system operating fully or partially on the air brake principle.

(b) Full air brake. (1) If an applicant performs the skills test in a vehicle equipped with air over hydraulic brakes, the State must indicate on the CDL, if issued, that the person is restricted from operating a CMV equipped with any braking system operating fully on the air brake principle.

(2) For the purposes of the skills test and the restriction, air over hydraulic brakes includes any braking system operating partially on the air brake and partially on the hydraulic brake principle.

(c) Manual transmission. (1) If an applicant performs the skills test in a vehicle equipped with an automatic transmission, the State must indicate on the CDL, if issued, that the person is restricted from operating a CMV equipped with a manual transmission.

(2) For the purposes of the skills test and the restriction, an automatic transmission includes any transmission other than a manual transmission as defined in §383.5.

if anyone would like to visit the full site here it is Electronic Code of Federal Regulations:

hope this helps

 

[Slacktide]

Not all states actually have that restriction and many have the mechanical aid and other restrictions listed in the the list I have and there is no federal requirement.

However taking the test with an autoshift opposed to an automatic or ultramatic can be construed as anything but an automatic trans because you do use a clutch

Greg, here is the definition of a manual trans as stated in 49 CFR 383.5

Manual transmission (also known as a stick shift, stick, straight drive or standard transmission) means a transmission utilizing a driver-operated clutch that is activated by a pedal or lever and a gear-shift mechanism operated either by hand or foot. All other transmissions, whether semi-automatic or automatic, will be considered automatic for the purposes of the standardized restriction code.


It can be confusing but that states it clearly (even if the Govt. wrote it)

 

[greg334]

Not trying to argue with you but I found out that many states don't use the FMCSA regulations because they don't have to follow everything but can adopt different and sometimes more stringent rules.

I think Virginia has endorsements for Prosthetics, Mechanical driving aids and Physically limited restrictions on CDLs, like the Automatic only endorsement - which in their case the person has to be physically limited to get the endorsement. I also think Wyoming has the same thing. BUT I won't dispute that it does not exist, it does ... in some states.

I looked through my CDL manual from my state and I have not seen any mention of any endorsement that restricts the person from driving other than the air brake restriction. I looked through both CDL tester's manuals and the only thing I saw was something mentioned about gear shift lever being in park.

 

[OntarioVanMan]

I think a driver should be tested at different levels of trucks....passing an auto shift test is different then a 13 or 15 speed Fuller...
I approve of different levels of competence....

 

[Dakota]

I think a driver should be tested at different levels of trucks....passing an auto shift test is different then a 13 or 15 speed Fuller...
I approve of different levels of competence....

Ken, your starting to sound like a politician
I approve of this message

 

[cheri1122]

OK, Slack: I apologize, the regulation actually exists. I've never known it to be enforced, though. My CDL A test was with a 10 spd, but I've driven 13 speed trucks, too, and the carrier never mentioned being qualified or not. Because more speeds isn't any different, you just do the same thing a couple more times. [Though I never liked the Super 10 - it drove me nuts, figuring out which gear I was in.]
It makes no sense - if you can't shift, who's going to let you drive for them? [Or are you gonna ruin the tranny on the truck you just bought?!] And how far are you gonna get, anyway?
And are you really supposed to retake the test [at your own expense] every time you upgrade your shifting to more speeds?
That's just plain nuts.

 

[Slacktide]

The CDL came about in the 80's to standardize licensing. The federal govt created the new classes (A,B&C) and as technology has progressed have updated endorsements and restrictions.

Greg, I don't know how long ago you took your test but in '93 when I took my test in NH I was made aware of the restriction. Truth be told I remember laughing at the thought of an autoshift truck at the time (wouldn't want anything but now). Commercial licensing is federaly regulated and as such is the same baseline in all states, not to say a state can't be more stringent. There may be places that choose to turn a blind eye and not place the restriction on a driver, but they are in the wrong and not following the regs.

Cheri, just an fyi there was nothing I saw in the regs or that I know of that restricts what manual trans you can drive in the US. As long as someone tests in a manual and passes they can drive any manual. What you said is true, it's all the same you just repeat what you started doing until ya run out of gears. Someone could test in a 5 speed and not have the restriction that testing in an auto would require be placed on a license.

Posted with my Droid EO Forum App

 

[OntarioVanMan]

I remember my tests for an A class....I was having a problem splitting so they put me in a small day cab with a straight 6...no problem....

First job I get...fully loaded 45 feet(trailer size then) with the 13 speed Fuller.....what a nightmare....was I safe out there....NO...not in any way.....

 

[pjjjjj]

Not trying to argue with you but I found out that many states don't use the FMCSA regulations because they don't have to follow everything but can adopt different and sometimes more stringent rules.....

Aren't the FMCSA regs applicable to every state, and don't they overrule any state regs, *unless* the state regs are more stringent (but can't be less stringent)?

I thought you were only allowed to take the CDL test 5 times.

I was interested in the answer to that question as well, and I found this on the IL website - I guess the rules would be diff in each state?

Is there a waiting period when I fail any portion of the CDL tests?
If you fail a test (written or skills) three times, you must wait 30 days before you are eligible to re-take that test.

If you fail a test (written or skills) six times, you must wait 90 days before you are eligible to re-take that test.


If you fail a test (written or skills) nine times, you must wait one year before you are eligible to re-take that test.


If an individual fails the road test six times, before being allowed to take the road test a seventh time the applicant is required to submit a medical report from a medical specialist indicating he/she is mentally and physically able to safely operate a motor vehicle.


Frequently Asked Questions

 

[greg334]

Aren't the FMCSA regs applicable to every state, and don't they overrule any state regs, *unless* the state regs are more stringent (but can't be less stringent)?

Well not really.

The system is not clear as many make it out as, they have to be adopted through the state legislative process because the feds can't regulate the roads and many are under the belief that it is an automatic thing when it is not.

The state is the licensing facilitator, they can change the rules to fit their needs as they see it, which means that they don't have to accept all the regulations or some of them but can accept all of them.

This is coming from the state and the Fed DOT people both - not the FMCSA.

They can change the definition of Commercial Vehicle, which they did in my state - it is anything over 5500 lbs used for any commercial purposes. It does not have a clause in there about not being out of state registered vehicle which has already been in the courts and the vehicle owner lost. At the same time there are exemptions for out of state vehicles in other parts of the regulations.

BUT back to this subject, I can't find any automatic only endorsement in any of the manuals or even on the state site and have posted a question on their forum to see where the info is.

 

[OntarioVanMan]

Well Greg..I would think for one who stress quality drivers and better testing, a graduated system would meet with your approval as well.....

my example here:

I remember my tests for an A class....I was having a problem splitting so they put me in a small day cab with a straight 6...no problem...

First job I get...fully loaded 45 feet(trailer size then) with the 13 speed Fuller.....what a nightmare....was I safe out there....NO...not in any way.....

 

[pjjjjj]

Well not really.

The system is not clear as many make it out as, they have to be adopted through the state legislative process because the feds can't regulate the roads and many are under the belief that it is an automatic thing when it is not.

The state is the licensing facilitator, they can change the rules to fit their needs as they see it, which means that they don't have to accept all the regulations or some of them but can accept all of them.

This is coming from the state and the Fed DOT people both - not the FMCSA.

They can change the definition of Commercial Vehicle, which they did in my state - it is anything over 5500 lbs used for any commercial purposes. It does not have a clause in there about not being out of state registered vehicle which has already been in the courts and the vehicle owner lost. At the same time there are exemptions for out of state vehicles in other parts of the regulations.

BUT back to this subject, I can't find any automatic only endorsement in any of the manuals or even on the state site and have posted a question on their forum to see where the info is.

COMMERCIAL MOTOR VEHICLE SAFETY ACT OF 1986
The Commercial Motor Vehicle Safety Act of 1986 was signed into law on October 27, 1986. The goal of the Act is to improve highway safety by ensuring that drivers of large trucks and buses are qualified to operate those vehicles and to remove unsafe and unqualified drivers from the highways. The Act retained the State's right to issue a driver's license, but established minimum national standards which States must meet when issuing CDLs.
The Act addresses circumstances that existed prior to 1986 by:

• making it illegal for CDL holders to possess more than one license;
• requiring States to adopt knowledge and skills testing to ensure that individuals required to have a CDL are qualified to operate heavy trucks and buses
• establishing minimum licensing standards and information requirements for the CDLs that States issue.

It is important to note that the Act does not require drivers to obtain a separate Federal license; it merely requires States to upgrade their existing testing and licensing programs, if necessary, to conform to the Federal minimum standards. The CDL program places requirements on the CMV driver, the employing motor carrier, and the States.
......
Knowledge & Skills Tests:
States develop their own tests which must meet the minimum Federal standards provided for in Subpart G and H of 49 CFR Part 383. Model driver and examiner manuals and tests have been prepared and distributed to the States to use, if they wish.
.......
Commercial Driver's License Document:
While FMCSA sets the minimum standards that States must meet regarding CDLs administration of the CDL program and issuance of the license itself remains the exclusive function of the States. States may determine the application process, license fee, license renewal cycle, renewal procedures, and reinstatement requirements after a disqualification provided that the Federal standards and criteria are met. States may exceed the Federal requirements for certain criteria, such as medical, fitness, and other driver qualifications.

......
Subpart D - Consequences of state noncompliance

§ 384.405 Decertification of State CDL program.

--------------------

The above is from Commercial Driver's License Program (CDL/CDLIS) - Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration which lists themselves as US Department of Transportation Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration. Wouldn't that be the federal dot? And greg334, wouldn't this mean that the states don't really have as much control over CDLs as you are saying? The fact that Michigan changed something to a more stringent description, does not prove that they can also change things at will to be *less* stringent.

 

[Slacktide]

Well not really.

You are wrong here Greg.

The system is not clear as many make it out as, they have to be adopted through the state legislative process because the feds can't regulate the roads and many are under the belief that it is an automatic thing when it is not.


The state is the licensing facilitator, they can change the rules to fit their needs as they see it, which means that they don't have to accept all the regulations or some of them but can accept all of them.

Here you are right in part, The state (any state) is a facilitator for licensing on behalf of the Federal Govt. Facilitator is defined as " one who provides indiret or unobtrusive assistance, guidence, or supervision." The state is there as a middleman so to speak so we do not have to go to the federal building to get licensed. The Federal Govt. has delegated licensing to the states and has set guidelines for each state to follow while performing this duty.

This is coming from the state and the Fed DOT people both - not the FMCSA.

They can change the definition of Commercial Vehicle, which they did in my state - it is anything over 5500 lbs used for any commercial purposes. It does not have a clause in there about not being out of state registered vehicle which has already been in the courts and the vehicle owner lost. At the same time there are exemptions for out of state vehicles in other parts of the regulations.

Here you prove what I said earlier. Your state has changed the definition and made it MORE stringent by reducing the weight to 5500 lb.

BUT back to this subject, I can't find any automatic only endorsement in any of the manuals or even on the state site and have posted a question on their forum to see where the info is.

I may have caused some confusion in my orriginal post by calling it an "automatic only" restriction. Being that semantics are what they are in here and will cause such problems at times please allow me to clarrify. It is a "manual transmission restriction" meaning restricted from operating a manual transmission and is mandated that it will be denoted with a letter code under restrictions on the licence. There is NOT a manual or automatic "endorsement" stating that you are allowed to drive a manual.

Here is the Applicability section straight from the same site I quoted earlier. The first paragraph is clear and concise as to whom these regs apply.

Title 49: Transportation
PART 383—COMMERCIAL DRIVER'S LICENSE STANDARDS; REQUIREMENTS AND PENALTIES
Subpart A—General


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§ 383.3 Applicability.
(a) The rules in this part apply to every person who operates a commercial motor vehicle (CMV) in interstate, foreign, or intrastate commerce, to all employers of such persons, and to all States.

(b) The exceptions contained in §390.3(f) of this subchapter do not apply to this part. The employers and drivers identified in §390.3(f) must comply with the requirements of this part, unless otherwise provided in this section.

(c) Exception for certain military drivers. Each State must exempt from the requirements of this part individuals who operate CMVs for military purposes. This exception is applicable to active duty military personnel; members of the military reserves; member of the national guard on active duty, including personnel on full-time national guard duty, personnel on part-time national guard training, and national guard military technicians (civilians who are required to wear military uniforms); and active duty U.S. Coast Guard personnel. This exception is not applicable to U.S. Reserve technicians.

(d) Exception for farmers, firefighters, emergency response vehicle drivers, and drivers removing snow and ice. A State may, at its discretion, exempt individuals identified in paragraphs (d)(1), (d)(2), and (d)(3) of this section from the requirements of this part. The use of this waiver is limited to the driver's home State unless there is a reciprocity agreement with adjoining States.

I hope this clarifys it for all that read in this thread, there is nothing more dangerous than misinformation.

 

[greg334]

Wow look at all that work to prove what I am saying is wrong ( I lumped all the comments together) but not one thing about how the process takes place or who actually is in control of what.

So from emails I got a while ago, from states DOT offices and from people over at the Federal Department of Transportation, it seems that their info is opposite from what people here are saying so here is the thing and it may sound like a bunch of crap I am going to say.

1 - the states long before I was born and most of you for that matter got together and agreed on some things, one of them was harmonizing the laws that govern the drivers and roads. See point #5 for more details.

2 - the feds do not grant or can not demand anything without the states adopting or agreeing to it REGARDLESS what the feds or others seem to think. Going back to number one, the states at some point have agreed to accept and/or adopt the DOT regulations.

3 - intrastate carriers as with intrastate drivers are not regulated by the FMCSA or the Federal DOT anything. This also means that they, the feds can not regulate state licensing of individuals - period. They can adopt the regulations (going back to point one) and use those as their own laws. HOWEVER the Federal Government regulates some (not all) interstate carriers - the exceptions are easily found.

4 - the states have the right to reject, modify (including the FMCSA regulations making them less stringent) OR just go along with it. UNLIKE laws, regulations from the federal level DOES NOT bind the state to that mandate - the EPA is another example where states HAVE to adopt their regulations and have to VOTE/PASS to have the EPA replace in some cases their own environmental quality departments.

5 - there is also a good point to be made that states can opt out of the federal regulations on motor vehicle equipment - one example is lights. The federal government does not approve any and all individual lights but set a uniformed standard and regulations that are used are the states. Now say Texas wants to change the law on headlamps for a specific vehicle, they can without any issue from the feds do so and that standard can be applies to vehicles crossing state lines as long as there is a reciprocating agreement in place between those states. So Texas wants every Ford F350 Ranch King edition to have yellow headlights like they have in France, they can and the driver can go from Texas to Louisiana because of the agreement between them. BUT that's not all. IF I make as LED headlamp and follow the DOT guidelines for the light pattern, cut off and so on, I do not have to send it into the DOT or even the state, just have the paper work to prove that it conforms to the DOT standards. The states had to agree to these things, California is one of a few who hold to higher standards but on the other hand there are states that allow things that can be removed or ignored.

6 - the federal government is not a licensing agent, they can not take a cdl away or grant one. The states have that exclusive right and this is because the federal government owns no roads outside of the district of Columbia - which is not a state. Their authority is limited to regulating the commerce between states and in all actuality that really does not include the means of transport of those goods between the states unless the states have a negitive affect on commerce - which by the way is a problem with California and CARB and how transporting goods into California has a clear negitive effect on commerce. Nope can't use my reefer unit or my APU unless it is a certain age.

7 - before I get the bollocks post about me knowing it all, I want to nip that in the bud because it is not the case. A number of years back I was driven to find the right answers after being pulled over and harassed by a Michigan State Trooper. It wasn't pleasant even though I was on the right side of the issue, it was a problem that I could not come up with the right answer to please him or his Sargent. So when I had the chance and the time, I wrote to every state DOT office (and the district of Columbia) with a list of questions (30 of them) and got answers. I also wrote to the FMCSA and the Fed DOT people with those questions and few more. One of the questions was this; What is the process your state follows to adopt new regulations the Federal Government creates? Surprisingly this one one of the ten everyone answered so I have to assume that because they were almost all the same, the process is basically all the same and that is the states HAVE to adopt the federal regulations as their own. So I am not an expert, but I just didn't go read the FMCSA website or read this on another forum.

So before our in-house encyclopedia chimes in and writes up a list of things saying I'm wrong, I have to add that no one seems to provide any info beyond the FMCSA regulations (by the way you know you are governed by the DOT regulations too?) but rather assumes that I am wrong because of what others have said here in the past which counters those who work in those departments or write those regulations/laws said but more importantly the reality of the road.

SO back to the OP, I offered a bit of advice, the restriction is not applied across all the states and it would be up to the individual to seek out the right advice for their state. See if you can take the test in an automatic, which I did and I don't have that restriction.

Outside of that, I will repeat this - if you can't handle the driving test, you will not handle the road.

 

[Slacktide]

So before our in-house encyclopedia chimes in and writes up a list of things saying I'm wrong, I have to add that no one seems to provide any info beyond the FMCSA regulations (by the way you know you are governed by the DOT regulations too?) but rather assumes that I am wrong because of what others have said here in the past which counters those who work in those departments or write those regulations/laws said but more importantly the reality of the road.

SO back to the OP, I offered a bit of advice, the restriction is not applied across all the states and it would be up to the individual to seek out the right advice for their state. See if you can take the test in an automatic, which I did and I don't have that restriction.

Greg, Realy???? no Realy?? Do you honestly believe what you write in here or is it merely for your own pleasure? There may be a reason for why we are providing the regs from FMCSA.
Try and keep up.
The FMCSA is the department WITHIN the US Department of Transportation that governs, Motor Carrier and Bus Safety, Motor Carrier Operations, Motor Carrier Equipment, Commercial Drivers License and Hours of Service. So yes I am aware that I am governed by D.O.T regs, they are one in the same as FMCSA regs. Have you ever seen the reg book that DOT references when they write up a deficency? It is a green book that CLEARLY states on the cover , and I quote, "Federal Motor Carrier Safety Regulations, as perscribed by: U.S Department of Transportation Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration parts 40, 380, 382, 383, 387, 390-397, 399". They even offer a "pocketbook" for drivers (I highly recomend every driver has one) these can be purchased through JJ Keller.

I made no assumption that you were wrong due to what others have said. I read what you yourself wrote and said you were wrong. I unlike yourself have provided what was asked of me after my first comment in this thread, the published regulation and a link where it could be found. You on the other hand have provided nothing but what would be defined as hearsay having provided zero official documentation to back up what you say.

You may have indeed have taken your skills test and received a CDL using a autoshift and not had a restriction placed on your license, lucky you. But that in no way negates the regs that are set forth by DOT/FMCSA to the states. Last I checked those that work for the local DMV are still human and prone to mistakes and may themselves not know all of the regs.

You can call me whatever you wish, be it "resident encyclopedia" or something worse ( I am certain I have been called worse). At least what I have said has been backed up by actual fact that you yourself could find with a bit of effort. But you have shown that you would rather spout off what you have heard, read or otherwise stumbled upon along the way. You seemed surprised that some of us would take the time to actually provide documented proof to show what the truth is, while you on the other hand take considerabe time to type up a disertation that can not be backed up, otherwise you would have provided links.
I do agree that the OP should contact their state and ask they may get lucky just as you did.

 

[shaw1996]

I thought you were only allowed to take the CDL test 5 times.

they told me 4 times on 1 permit than u have to start all over from scratch. what i dont get how come they never gave me another examier. i beleive they really dont care.

 

[shaw1996]

OK, Slack: I apologize, the regulation actually exists. I've never known it to be enforced, though. My CDL A test was with a 10 spd, but I've driven 13 speed trucks, too, and the carrier never mentioned being qualified or not. Because more speeds isn't any different, you just do the same thing a couple more times. [Though I never liked the Super 10 - it drove me nuts, figuring out which gear I was in.]
It makes no sense - if you can't shift, who's going to let you drive for them? [Or are you gonna ruin the tranny on the truck you just bought?!] And how far are you gonna get, anyway?
And are you really supposed to retake the test [at your own expense] every time you upgrade your shifting to more speeds?
That's just plain nuts.

i tested in a 10 speed volvo always got better each time i tested. this time i lost it didnt get my rpms up and shifted. now they want me to test own expense after all i did pay for the schooling right? its nuts.alright.

 

[Rocketman]

Geez Slack, why you keep ruining a perfectly good argument with facts?

 

[cheri1122]

Geez Slack, why you keep ruining a perfectly good argument with facts?

Facts never ruin an argument with folks who refuse to believe them.

 

[cheri1122]

Thanks to Slacktide for posting the link to the full regs. I have the 'little green book' and use it often, but it doesn't have Part 49, only the safety regs.