DIS-Orientation

NoProblem

Expert Expediter
Heres my beef - do others agree?

I am starting with a new company this coming week and absolutely dread the thought of the TWO DAYS of orientation. Being through this a few times already, I can say in all honesty - WHAT A COLOSSAL WASTE OF TIME!

I have been through a few orientations that took all of 45 minutes - those were OK - but 2 days?? Give me a flipping break. (it actually takes 3 days if you count DOT physical and drug test)

The Qcom is easy enough to figure out once you need to use it a few times - 10 minutes on that is plenty. Add another 50 whole minutes to go over company policies, expectations and paper work and THATS PLENTY! I tend to get real sleepy after the first video starts - by the end of the day, wipe me off the floor!

Any recruters or safety personnel who might be reading - why?

Thanks
 

raceman

Veteran Expediter
I agree completely. You may be told by others you are moving around too much. I on the other hand feel moving until you find what you want is a good thing. I agree with your point and if companies are going to continue exchanging trucks and drivers they might want to look at the critria for going through a full oreintation. One day when I own my own trucking company, I promise I will use this idea. :) cause I like it and you are right. Don't put experienced people through everything. That is what the word experience means. We know something just not everything.

--- Why hug a tree when you can mash on a CAT--- (That is a diesel for your animal lovers. I do not hurt animals)


raceman
 

NoProblem

Expert Expediter
But I am moving around too much - its always the last resort, but thats the biz.

Don't put experienced people through everything. That is what the word experience means. We know something just not everything.

Beautifully said! Recruters, Safety, are you listening?
 

Tom Robertson

Veteran Expediter
HEY ~

Well let's start with...
1. Do you remember in school when you understood the concept and others around you were scratching their heads? Some catch on quickly... others don't. So school (all the way through college) is set up the same way. ie. set the program so even the slowest of those involved can understand... good for them a yawner for you!
PS... I've been yawning most of my life
2. Proper training of the masses is required by the DOT. Carriers are obligated to cover certain criteria for all new drivers.

For some it is brand new material... for others it should be considered as "continuing education" courses required by anyone associated and holding any "state regulated" business license. Classroom hours are required in professions from hairdressers to doctors, and each of them are required to complete a set number of hours each year.

Think of it like the other professionals... painful but necessary to continue in your chosen profession.

I am certain the carriers would rather skip this as well.
I would rather drive 85 miles an hour but I can't do that either...at least not for long!
 

raceman

Veteran Expediter
You are most likely right as always here Tom but I offer you a thought not having looked into this at all but having a lot of expereince with the government, FDA. You can abbreviate some things in some cases and it may require thinking or just looking outside the box. This can be delt with most likely by using a grandfathering type system where experience counts towards something. In this case case if you have documented evidence you have been through parts of the same training, you no longer need it a second time. There are things Qual Com being one of them, if you know how to use no need to sit through it, as an example. I can tell you for a fact that the government well not make people by law sit through the same oreintation over and over. This is not to say that some things do not have to be repeated but it is to say not all have to be. I worked for 15 year with the FDA setting up these same types of training for drug maunfacturing and if show the DOT a proposal as to why everyone is not going to sit through the same thing time after time, I am 99% sure it will fly and each company can have an Standard Operating Procedure in place to handle experienced people.


---Why hug a tree when you can sit on a diesel---


raceman
 

Tennesseahawk

Veteran Expediter
Are the feds the real reason that orientation is that long? Or is it because they want you "brainwashed", per se, into their system? I was there, No Problem, and I miss those days when orientation was a couple hours to a day at most. They still went over logs, and got in the qualcomm and such. If people at the orientation would keep their mouths shut about their experiences with company "Brand X", then that alone would knock off around half a day. ;)
 

ATeam

Senior Member
Retired Expediter
Forgive me for chuckling. You are complaining about two days of mandated education (orientation) that was triggered by your decision to change carriers? My wife and I used to work in professions where 15 to 20 hours a year of continuing education is required just to keep your current job. That's to keep your license. If you want to stay on top of the game, you never stop going to seminars, classes, school, earning additonal certifications etc.

Truck driving is one of the few professions (emphasis on word profession) where you can maintain a license and endorsements with virtually no ongoing education whatsoever. There is the HAZMAT recertification every two years (for certain types of HAZMAT). Wow! A whole day in a classroom once every two years. That's nothing, even if you include the deadhead time and expense to get there. Other professionals invest far more than that in their careers.

While you may already have the material mastered, is there nothing to be gained by attending? What about learning about the industry by talking to the other drivers there about where they are in their careers and why they moved to the same carrier as you? What about cornering carrier staff people there and getting to know them better during the breaks? What about taking a good look around your carrier's facility to get a better sense of how things are run? What about keeping your ears open for the one or two items in the training that have recently changed to become better attuned to what is going on in the industry?

My wife and I will be attending our carrier orientation in a few months when we become Owner/Operators. We could almost certainly convince the powers that be that we don't need it because we've been with the carrier over a year in fleet owner trucks. We wouldn't think of it. We're looking forward to "wasting two days" at our carrier's orientation for the reasons stated above.

We've made numerous carrier staff acquaintenances by phone. We're looking forward to meeting them in person and will go out of our way to do so. We're also looking forward to meeting our orientation "classmates" to see what insights we might gain from them. And it also just might happen that the orientation staff will have something to say that is worth hearing.

Orientation a waste of time? For some perhaps. For others it can be a golden opportunity to learn more about your carrier and industry, and in so doing, advance your career.

In education and professional circles, there is the concept of lifelong learning. It's a concept that can benefit trucking as well if adopted and practiced indsutry-wide.
 

raceman

Veteran Expediter
A-Team, that was a great note and you say some things that are very true. I too was in a position where I had to attend training like you decribed. I also could not help but notice everything you mentioned in your note is what No Problem was okay with. I am good with that as well. I do not want to speak for anyone else but from my standpoint, and I don't even care I have not set through in a while, but I do see it as a problem. The things that are just not needed as repeats could be removed for experienced people. A program could be set up for the three days and some folks go through it all and others are grand fathered where appropriate. Many of the things you describe as enjoyable are for me as well but I could do that on the day where there is drup testing or whatever. Meeting people in the organization and seeing everything is certainly something I like to do. It may be that I talk this stuff and teach it almost weekly and certainly monthly at a few driving schools. I worked with the FDA to eliminate some of the non useful retraining involved in the drug maufacturing industry.This simply applied to things that did not change or were with in a certain degree of difficulty to perform etc. It saved millions of dollars and it did not take away from continuing education or new education. It actually allowed for more time to do new education. From my standpoint if my driver understands how to operate the QualCom system, I see no reason for him or her to set through a half a day on QualCom. In this example that time could be used either driving and earning some money for themselves and the truck or they use that time to interact with other folks there that also already understand Qual Com. When folks are told to set there but be quite while the others learn,that makes very little sence to me. I think what you like and what I like could be accomplished if things were just coordinated a little differently. You are right it is only two or three days but when you are forced to just set there, that time is wasted in the case of some people. If you could mingle as you describe while the folks who need it get it, thatwould be great it just does not seem to work that way. I also want to say one more thing about this moving from company to company. I think it is fantastic if you started with a company one day and have been happy every since. I did that once and stayed there 23 years. Then from there I moved around once or twice in order to find a company were I could meet their needs and they could meet my needs. Many people I talk to have been with two or three companies before they found the right fit. This is a very individual thing. Everybody has different things they are looking for. This is not a business where you can go try it and stay if you like it. There are no tryouts.As far as I know you have to sign on to ever really try it out. That is why many of us have been discussing the recruiting. I am happier than a pig in doo doo where I am and have no plans on going anywhere else. But not everybody likes the company I like and they go elswhere. Sometimes it takes a move or two.
---Why hug a tree when you can sit on a diesel---

raceman
 

Dreamer

Administrator Emeritus
Charter Member
A Team wrote:

>Forgive me for chuckling. You are complaining about two days
>of mandated education (orientation) that was triggered by
>your decision to change carriers? My wife and I used to work
>in professions where 15 to 20 hours a year of continuing
>education is required just to keep your current job. That's
>to keep your license. If you want to stay on top of the
>game, you never stop going to seminars, classes, school,
>earning additonal certifications etc.
>


I have to agree with A Team here...

While a lot of info is 'rehashed' from company to company, I think it's important to have that orientation time. Not only is this time there for you to learn the paperwork of the company, but the philosophy of the company. This is the time to talk to the representatives, ask all those 'what if' questions that you didn't ask the recruiter.

Every company deals with situations differently, and has their own procedures. How stupid will you feel if you're out there running for a couple weeks, and screw up your pay, or violate some company policy that was covered in the 'full' orientation.

While I haven't had the work experience of A Team, I do come from 12 years in the restaurant business, and time with a Fortune 500 company in the customer service department. With the restaurant, managers had a 4 hr meeting EVERY WEEK at regional headquarters to go over sales, and policy updates, goals, etc... at least 2 times a year, I took 1 to 2 day seminars on Sanitary Procedures, Software updates, etc

With the Customer Service job.. my 'orientation' was 12 WEEKS in a classroom!!! and, every quarter, there were update classes, and 'team meetings' every month to go over goals, expectations,etc.

In Expediting, a lot of drivers seem to have the attitude of

[font color="blue"]Let me sign the papers and go make money!!![/font]

There is more to it. This is a business. As in any business, knowledge is the key to success. I don't think a couple days of orientation is any big deal. I'm surprised companies don't have more meetings and times where they have drivers stop by and get updates in seminars, etc.

The more I know my company, understand it's policies and procedures, the more equipped I am to be a success.

I've always been one of those people, whether in expediting, or business jobs, that I want to learn as much as possible. I WANT all those updates, seminars, etc... as they put me ahead of the other guy, and help me do what is needed to make that bottom line...
 

terryandrene

Veteran Expediter
Safety & Compliance
US Coast Guard
I also think A-Team, Raceman and Dreamer are on the money.

Rene and I never had orientation and we struggled through many a truck stop BS setting to glean the info we needed to succeed. It serves one well to learn first-hand, the company philosophy, personnel and policies.
 

raceman

Veteran Expediter
I agree with most of that Dreamer. I jsut had a talk yesterday about company meetings, updates on people and postions. I was askingif there was someway to get those updates and learnings. I am going to stick to my guns on orientation. If there are folks attending it that have been throughparts of it that need no update such as logbooks, qualCom, how to do pre and post trips, those types of things, don't put them through it. I am goin to agree to disagree on this topic. I feel that there are some things there is simply no reason to go through a second or third time. Maybe the ones I mentioned are them and maybe they are not but the point is there is a better way to spend time. It may be simple and it may not be but thats my opinion and it has nothing to do with a been there done that attitude it is my past TRAINING in time management and designing quality in. Actually I will look around and see if I can find the handouts from a business class I took a number of years ago which was made up of a lot learnings from a young man who started a little company called FED.Ex. He had some great processes and methods he used that could cover this entire topic very well.


---Why hug a tree when you can sit on a diesel---

raceman
 

Dreamer

Administrator Emeritus
Charter Member
raceman wrote:

I am going to stick to my guns on
>orientation. If there are folks attending it that have been
>throughparts of it that need no update such as logbooks,
>qualCom, how to do pre and post trips, those types of
>things, don't put them through it.

Ok.. I see your point now.. the BASIC stuff. But.. how would they make SURE people knew the right way to do this stuff? Maybe have a 'test out' option for portions? And how about people who are returning to driving SINCE the Logbook rule changes?

I wonder.. how many drivers actually DO a 'correct' pre and post trip?



Then raceman wrote"
I am goin to agree to disagree on this topic.


That's what makes this forum professional!


Dreamer
 

Tennesseahawk

Veteran Expediter
I may have misstated my point. I am not against orientation, but I don't think they need to be that long. My orientation was 2 days and it was very well structured... all time was accounted for. But I've heard about another company who's orientation is 4 days. I think that's pushing the boundaries of sanity... especially for people who hate to sit.
I know... most of you have had jobs where sitting in a classroom was part of the job. I for one was a Marine, and had to endure endless politically correct hogwash sessions. But I can't agree that expediting should be part of that group. For one, you were paid for sitting there. Since we're in a business where time is literally money, it costs us hundreds, if not thousands, to rehash what is in our little green books. Orientation should be strictly about the way the company runs. Qualcomm, pay, rules and regs, pee in a jar, put the satellite and stickers on, and hit us on the arse to make some money. Nuff said :) :) :) :) :)
 

NoProblem

Expert Expediter
Once again, I think raceman best understands my frustration.

I am not against a few hours of orientation - heck, there actually are good reasons for it, but to see the same videos on safety, entering/exiting the truck properly etc. is a waste of time and not necessary - especially for a non-employee, that is, a contractor, which is what we are.

When I was in tooling, possibly half my career was spent in orientations, pep talk meetings etc. ad nausem. Those were a colossal waste of time too - but oh baby, they sure payed a lot of money for the aggravation of sitting through that garbage, but that was actually part of my job description, so thats NoProblem.

Personally, I can meet the folks there, check out their set-up and learn their paperwork in an hour....all I really need though, is to learn their paperwork, a process that should take all of 10 minutes.

Honestly folks, what does this job consist of? Heck, I have taught people how to drive, pass their tests and get their class B in less than two days. If a refresher couse in safety, log books, proper fueling techniques etc. is necessary, then I guess theres a problem right off the get go with the new hire - unless thats exactly what they are, new to expediting/trucking.

While I agree that there are folks out there who might need or think they need two or more days of signing forms and seeing videos, the whole two or more day orientation thing is not, in my opinion, appropriate for everyone and serves some of us as a type of slight deterrent, rather than an incentive to want to hire into some companies.
 

X1_SRH

Expert Expediter
I can understand the frustration felt by all of you - I know what it feels like to be ready to rock & roll and then have to sit around for a couple of days not makin' any money. Well, here's my two cents: A proper orientation is going to show you all the tips and tricks that are unique to the company that you are joining. If all companies are created equally then there wouldn't be any point to switching now would there? This is a few days to learn why your company is different than the rest, and how to flourish within that new system. A few days spent not makin' money at a good orientation will help you make MORE money during the 362 other days left in your first year. Orientation is an investment by both parties in a future relationship - and an opportunity for either party to opt out of the deal if it doesn't feel right. Getting to know each other is crucial before any freight lands on your truck. Orientation really is important - Just come in with an open mind, ready to learn about your NEW company, and forget about your OLD company..... And your investment of 3 days time will pay off. -X
 

raceman

Veteran Expediter
Hey X1, Spoken like a true, well you know what I am going to say. Is it possible to organize it differently where the same ole same ole is maybe day one and two for all the new folks and then day three,or something like that is all the nice new stuff about the new company? I had given up on this topic but because it was your response, and I know you are logical, smart, down to earth, great person, fun to talk with, easy to get a long with, willing to buck the system, the kind of guy who can think out of the box, and one hell of a wonderful person, I had to ask the question.


---Why hug a tree when JLo seems to be so, oops,you can sit on a diesel---

raceman
 

JohnMueller

Moderator
Staff member
Motor Carrier Executive
Safety & Compliance
Carrier Management
Oreintation is required to provide relevant training to ALL drivers. When a driver operates a vehicle with a company's signs on it, THAT COMPANY is responsible for the operation of that vehicle and providing training to the vehicle driver. Should the driver have an accident our society believes the carrier, who carries the primary liability insurance (and has supposedly has the "deepest pockets"), is responsible to the injured party for any damages. The injured party wins the lawsuit based on two items - 1). the driver was not qualified or 2). the vehicle was not properly maintained. The legal system places the responsibility of selecting, training, re-training, and qualifying drivers on the carrier. It also places the responsibilty for paying the damages on the carrier - generally not the driver.
Carriers have an obligation to hire and place only the safest drivers in their vehicles. The training provided in orientation attempts to educate the driver not only in safety related matters but also the company's policies and procedures. Knowing these policies and procedures should make your life easier and allow you to make a decent living with that company because you should understand how their system works.
Orientation is also required because some of the "best", "most qualified" drivers do not know everything that they should. It is very easy for a driver to make a mistake (logs, accident, incorrect company procedures, etc...) and respond to that mistake with "I didn't know" or "Nobody told me that" or a number of any other excuses placing blame on the carrier or someone else.
In my years of experience in Safety and Recruiting within the Trucking Industry I have seen many drivers who "talk the talk" but can not even come close to "walking the walk". I hear "Tarzan" but smell "ape doo-doo" from their performance or lack of responsibility. Driving a truck is NOT just moving freight from point A to B. It is driving the vehicle in a safe professional manner. It is doing the required paperwork (logs, delivery receipts, etc...). It is following the company's procedures. It is representing the company and the trucking industry in a professional way. It is operating that vehicle within the "spirit of the law".
I do agree that SOME professional drivers do not need two to three days of orientation. Perhaps the FHWA, DOT or other regulatory agencies could come up with a proficiency test(s) designed to reduce orientation time for drivers with say five or more years experience in a similar vehicle.
Reality presented from the other side.
Thanks,
HotFr8Recruiter
 

raceman

Veteran Expediter
Hot Freight, Great answer. Thanks for your input. The last few lines of your post is what I was thinking may work when I posted early on. What you mention about five years or more is exactly what did work with the FDA on training in another industry. Grandfathering if you will. Thank you and keep on recruiting or trucking.


raceman
 

JohnMueller

Moderator
Staff member
Motor Carrier Executive
Safety & Compliance
Carrier Management
Raceman;
We are on the same page. I do "customize" each orientation I do to fit the driver's individual needs. It helps that I do "one-on-one" orientations here as opposed to the "40 in, 40 out" done at some trucking companies. Sitting with a driver one-on-one, I can easily assess his or her skills and knowledge. I cover those areas where the driver needs help. Drivers are usually very open with me and are not afraid to ask questions. My orientations are a short day for the experienced driver. It also helps that my primary function is Safety and recruiting is secondary. I've been in the technical aspects of trucking and safety for about 25 years and have seen quite abit. I attempt to view things from both the driver's perspective and also the operations.
I need to commend you on your professional response. So often people take offense when I post what I view as the truth, objectively looking at all angles.
I wish you luck in all your endeavors.
Best Regards,
HotFr8Recruiter
 
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