A note on unions (not related to trucking!)

[themagicoen]

I watched special on the closing of a GM plant in Pontiac, MI the other day. They were talking about the market demands, etc. But the biggest reason for the fallout of GM, and the layoff of workers was the union. They were showing people who's sole job was to mop the floor making close to $40/hour just because they had tenure and a contract. A lot of people at the plant agreed with the layoffs and closing due to that fact. It's no wonder these American company's are failing - GM, Chrsyler, Ford, Northwest, Delta, Delphi, etc. - when their contracts allow things like the above. Could you imagine if we got an union for us? You'd get drivers making $5+ mile and only taking a few loads a week as a result the company would loose contracts for not covering loads resulting in loss of profit resulting in layoffs finally bankruptcy and then the company that was. Got to love America and are greedy ways.

 

[cheri1122]

The UAW was in a unique position - the greed displayed by the management they negotiated with made it easy for them to get big concessions. Why does everyone blame the union, and never mention what the executive compensation costs? Or the fact that the union doesn't have any say in the decisions made by the overpaid execs, in areas such as design, marketing, etc?
It would be wonderful if business management could stop overpaying those at the top, and underpaying those at the bottom. And using the creative accounting that permits them to claim that raising the minimum wage would cost jobs, but overpaying executives doesn't...

 

[RichM]

It always blows my mind when a CEO gets fired by his board and walks way with 30 million or so in severance. Another example is the winn Dixie supermarket chain in the SouthEast. A while back they filed for bankruptcy.. Closed lots of stores laid off thousands, and announced that allof the original shareholders that invested in the company were now holding worthless sheets of paper. BUT the CEO in addition to his million plus salary would geta retention bonus of over 2 million to stay on.

So I see both sides to blame for the demise of the American auto Industry. BTWI am not much for conspiracy theories but something tells me the Enron thief Ken Lay is alive and well on a island somewhere. Cash money can buy lots of plastic surgery.

 

[cheri1122]

Ooooh, good one, Rich! Having friends in high places doesn't hurt either...
I'm almost glad that I don't own any stock - seems like a good way to lose everything, these days.:-(

 

[themagicoen]

Well yes CEO's are WAY overpaid! BUT there shouldn't be someone mopping the floor making $40/hour - but the union allows for that to happen and then payroll cost jump and then along with the high-ups salary that they won't budge with the company goes BOOM!

 

[cheri1122]

The way I see it, the union exists to get the best pay, benefits, & working conditions it can for the members. If management has set such a standard of overpayment for themselves, they can't expect the union, or the workers to settle for peanuts - of course they're going to shoot for the moon. And more than likely, they'll get it, because management can't ask them to be reasonable in their demands, knowing how generously they've treated themselves already, and knowing that the union & it's members know it too.
It's the greedheads at the top who set the standards, and they'll walk away with millions when their stupidity & greed bankrupts the entire company.

 

[slfisher45]

"Could you imagine if we got an union for us? You'd get drivers making $5+ mile and only taking a few loads a week as a result the company would loose contracts for not covering loads resulting in loss of profit resulting in layoffs finally bankruptcy and then the company that was. Got to love America and are greedy ways. "

I find it humorous you put down unions not relating to trucking then you bring in driving to make a point.
You took someones word at the pay for mopping and assumed it was the truth. I'm sure you didn't contact any UAW union reps for the pay scale. Many things go into a pay scale. I won't elaborate on all of it. When I worked for General Motors (1976-1990) my exit pay was $52.00 an hour. That included all my benefits. BCBS was much better then. Vacation time, sick pay and many more benefits are factored in. I made app. $16 an hour when I took a buy out.
Someone was pulling your leg if you believed a mopper was making $40 an hour straight time.
Wages, job descriptions, identifying seniority, overtime procedures, hiring practices, vacation times sick pay, all this and more is negotiated between the company and the union. The union didn't demand a mopper, fork lift driver, machine operator, et al., get paid a certain wage, it is negotiated. Much how you might haggle at a car dealership or a garage sale or even buying a house. What the market will bare. Some things get out of hand.
The biggest err I can recall was when Ross Perot was on the board at GM and he was a problem so they bought him out for $750 million dollars.
Don't ##### the union when the problem isn't the union. Wages are agreed upon at the bargaining table or an arbitrator has made the decision.
The employee reaps the benefit of negotiations. The executives are paid by arbitrary decisions with out much of it based on what they have done, but what they might do.
I'm sure you wouldn't quit if you thought you were making too much money.

 

[rode2rouen]

>Well yes CEO's are WAY overpaid! BUT there shouldn't be
>someone mopping the floor making $40/hour - but the union
>allows for that to happen and then payroll cost jump and
>then along with the high-ups salary that they won't budge
>with the company goes BOOM!


You are totally misinterpreting this situation!! Here's some clues.

The union does not ALLOW anyone to make $40 per hour for mopping floors!!!

The CONTRACT, which was negotiated by the union AND the Co., enables the mop operator to make $40 per hour!

BTW, the $40 per hour figure is NOT an hourly rate, but a combined figure which includes wages and benefits (pension, health insurance, etc.).

There is PLENTY of blame to go around when looking at the situation the Big3 automakers find themselves today, but to place the blame entirely on the union is wrong. No one brings a gun to the negotiating table.


Rex

 

[themagicoen]

>>Well yes CEO's are WAY overpaid! BUT there shouldn't be
>>someone mopping the floor making $40/hour - but the union
>>allows for that to happen and then payroll cost jump and
>>then along with the high-ups salary that they won't budge
>>with the company goes BOOM!
>
>
>You are totally misinterpreting this situation!! Here's some
>clues.
>
>The union does not ALLOW anyone to make $40 per hour for
>mopping floors!!!
>
>The CONTRACT, which was negotiated by the union AND the Co.,
>enables the mop operator to make $40 per hour!
>
>BTW, the $40 per hour figure is NOT an hourly rate, but a
>combined figure which includes wages and benefits (pension,
>health insurance, etc.).
>
>There is PLENTY of blame to go around when looking at the
>situation the Big3 automakers find themselves today, but to
>place the blame entirely on the union is wrong. No one
>brings a gun to the negotiating table.
>
>
>Rex


"No one brings a gun to the negotiating table" Maybe thats the solutions and the problems, no one had the balls to be forceful. LOL I'm just joking btw so don't bash me for that.

 

[nightcreacher]

slfisher.thats exactly what happened to the company I started driving for back in the 70s,we were union,and the drivers with the seniority,did exactly that,got paid to work all week, but only worked couple days
I was working 9 mos a year,as I kept getting laid off,so I became an owner opp,and lost my butt
over the years its been a big turn around,from having my own authority,to finding Roberts Express,which as we all know is now Fed Ex C C

 

[slfisher45]

"over the years its been a big turn around,from having my own authority,to finding Roberts Express,which as we all know is now Fed Ex C C " nightcreacher
Steve, My whole point was the driver that originated this thread started out with "A note on unions (not relating to trucking) then brought in trucking to make a point. I am aware of faults of the union. Yours is a prime example. There are many stories of perceived unfairness with the unions. As I stated before the guidelines are negotiated and members live by the guidelines. Any thing outside of that today is illegal.
The unions were necessary many years ago. To save lives and save jobs. It went too far. Now it is being sacrificed. There still is a need for unions but different reasons. We all know of someone who had a boss that gave all the good jobs to his buddy.
What happened to you is what happens everyday to a lot of non union employees. It always ends up with someone saying It is not "FAIR".
I am not advocating Unions. I believe in merit.
Tell me this, as an interested driver, I talked to two drivers last week that left Fed Ex because they were newbies and couldn't get work. Good jobs went to drivers with longer service. Any truth.

 

[slfisher45]

Apparently I struck a nerve. No response.

 

[nightcreacher]

ABSOLUTELY NO TRUTH,
This business,isnt about who you are, but where you are. if your closet to a pick up that has to be picked up right away,you will get loaded in front of the person thats been there longer,but in most cases,its just knowing what express centers to hang out in, and which ones not to.
You check the VRU,it says no trucks in the express center you are delivering to,then you check how many loads have gone out of there,if none have gone all month,it wouldnt be wise to sit there,you might even have to find an express center on your own,with no dh pay or fsc,but doing that gets you loaded faster than sitting at a dead express center.
You have to look at,how far the load that brought you there went,and how many miles your willng to give up,and the smart guys figure this out before they accept the load offer.
There are certain express centers that are always busy for tractors,and never have enough of them around.
Those guys that didnt find work,well,they just wernt in the right place,had nothing to do with them being new,just they made the wrong choice where they delivered to.

This form of trucking,is like playing pool,you can make the easy shot,but if your not in position for the next ball,you will loose the game.
Didnt strike a nerve,just haven't been on line
HAVE HAPPY NEW YEAR

 

[theoldprof]

Let me put my two pennies worth in about the unions. People write in on this site that think the UAW and the teachers unions should be abolished. Concerning the teachers' unions all I can say is that they have a rough job. Garbage in and garbage out. Just look at some of the students (?) these teachers have to put up with. On the other hand, some of these same writers suggest that anyone driving for an owner, or an owner contracted to a carrier had better have a contract, and let an attorney look it over. What I don't understand is these people want the folks in the factories to work without a contract, but they don't want themselves to work without a contract. Sounds like a double standard to me.

:+ :+

 

[highway star]

I don't see that as a valid comparison. Without a union, there is still an agreement on wages and benefits. A union does bring in a different dynamic.

 

[cheri1122]

Excellent point, Professor! Think it's time to drop the last line of your sigline, the part about "still nose nuthin"? Because you clearly know a thing or two...

 

[greg334]

I just don’t agree.

There is no double standard. A contractor is completely different animal than a unionized worker. The contractor is subject to more performance related standards and subject to a termination of the contract for different issues, like not fulfilling approval requirements. I don't see Unionized workers being fired because they can't turn out a product of service.

Second the UAW has outlived its usefulness and in reality is holding back the workers.

Third, the NEA should be eliminated. They have been destroying the country for years and beside a public school teacher should be held accountable by the public and not allowed to strike.

 

[cheri1122]

Greg, have you ever been a union employee? Because I have, and I was held accountable for achieving specific standards, (even when the substandard materiels that fit "on paper" didn't in reality), and if I failed to achieve, the union couldn't save my job - I saw quite a few people fired during my years in a factory.

 

[slfisher45]

"There is no double standard. A contractor is completely different animal than a unionized worker."

Greg, Maybe I missed your point.

A contractor by its own definition is under contract. That is what a union is. They are contracted to perform specific jobs under prescribed guidelines. Each job has a classification to perform certain duties. Each employee has a certain classification.A unionized employee can be dismissed by not following guidelines. They can't be fired for having a personality flaw or for wearing stinky perfume or aftershave. That is what protects you from a boss with a dislike for slender women or men with long hair. You might be the best employee and hardest worker, with a boss that doesn't like you, he can fire you.
Not all teachers are NEA members and in Michigan they are scrutinized by the public and their pay is subject to the whims of the voters in that district. Can you say millage, bonds and elected school board members. If there is no money there is no raise. There are pink slips and loyoffs.
Teachers are subject to some indignities perpetrated by some board members and unprofessional principals. I'm glad educators have an organization protecting them. The few bad teachers in each system are not the fault of MEA or NEA, the boards and pricipals allowed them tenure without properly evaluating their skills. So many more good teachers are still teaching because of the upturn in wages and benefits.
And, fortunately there are teachers that teach because it is their calling. Pay was pitiful through the 1980's.
It is against the law for Teachers to strike in Michigan.......

 

[theoldprof]

Here's another angle on these thoughts: Ever get a load offer that was great money, an excellent FSC, and would end up in a very good location for the next load? This wasn't good money per mile, this was GREAT money per mile. Same with FSC. Did you say to your self, "Self, this is a great load. Wish I had one of these every day." Or, did you say that you're not sure if the shipping company could afford to pay this you had better not take advantage of them. You would grab the load in a heartbeat. You are looking out for your company, not someone else's company. Same with unionized employees. They are simply looking out for their family "company".
:+