25 years until execution?

LDB

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
A Utah murderer may finally be executed after 25 years. That is at least 10 times as long as it should have taken. It is ridiculous that we allow people to live so long when they have cause for execution. From one news report:

Gardner was convicted of shooting attorney Michael Burdell to death on April 2, 1985, when Gardner attempted to escape from a Salt Lake City courthouse. He was sentenced to death in 1985, but legal proceedings have dragged on since then.
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
The system is abused from within the prison system OVM.

There is a rule about frivolous lawsuits and cases that is pretty much ignored. If it wasn't, then food issues, clothing issues, tv issues, phone issues would never make it to court.
 

FIS53

Veteran Expediter
You all got it right with it taking too long, too many appeals allowed and other things that allow things to drag on for years. Prisoners for some reason appear to have more rights that the average Joe and can complain about everything and unfortunately some goodie two shoes listens and takes up the cause. My feeling is once you are properly convicted you lose your rights as a citizen and that's it. But alas I'm not in the vocal majority.
Rob
 

LDB

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
I'm not so sure it is still "fair and just" when it takes so long. If the accused is given more rights, more concern, more everything than the victims and society, and that is the case with horrible organizations like the ACLU and others, then it is no longer fair and just. Victims, society and honest citizens need at least as many rights as the accused. In this particular case the convict killed a lawyer while attempting to escape from a courtroom in front of numerous witnesses. He should have been taken out to the courthouse lawn and a bullet put through his head right then and there. Oh no! I've just given a few of our members apoplexy by suggesting the correct handling of such an incident compared to this quarter century of stupidity. Oh, and before the members who enjoy explaining what I mean get too enthused this is the short version of the abridged report of the condensed comments so it doesn't represent anything except the correct position on this specific incident.
 

LDB

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
If you execute enough of the ones who deserve it in a very expeditious manner you solve the problems in the system.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
There is actually an argument now that he shouldn't be put to death at this point, after 25 years on Death Row, because at this point doing so would be cruel and unusual punishment.

I'm not against the death penalty, but I do know that far too many innocent people have been found guilty and put to death, only to find out years later they didn't do it. The problem with our court system is that neither the prosecution nor the defense are there in court on a quest for the truth, both are there to win. The prosecution thinks someone is guilty, so they gather up evidence to support their position, and the defense tries to refute as much as possible in order to plant enough doubt in the minds of jurors. With most cases, that's fine, it really is, but with a capital case, it needs to be a slam dunk no-brainer beyond any and all doubt whatsoever kind of thing.

In such cases, the maximum amount of time between conviction and execution should be 6 months. If it needs to go beyond 6 months, for whatever reason, then the death sentence should automatically be commuted to life in prison, thereby ending all costly frivolous motions to delay the inevitable.

In the case of this Utah Yahoo, he should have been executed 24.75 years ago. Lets git r dun. One of this guy's appeals was based on a typo of a court reporter that had no substantive bearing on the outcome of the verdict, and the disposition of that motion took 2 1/2 years to complete. Holy crap.
 

FIS53

Veteran Expediter
This was a multiple crime criminal (already in court for an offence). So does that make a difference? I think to a degree it does as he wasn't willing to go along with the system. So LDB has a point of there was no question of the crime just the punishment. Since it was a multiple time criminal then a removal from society may have been justified but not 25 years waiting for the sentence to be carried out. Too many sit on death row for years. I think it prudent that all death sentences have the evidence reviewed by an independent group and any information that comes forward but there has to be a limit on time.
Rob
 

LDB

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
My position on this has always been with absolutely irrefutable evidence such as video, DNA etc.. In this particular case it was in a courtroom full of witnesses. And if it wasn't murder what was it? It doesn't matter if it was premeditated, not at all. He killed another person and even if it was a lawyer it was still killing. Premeditation should have nothing to do with capital punishment, only the crime and the evidence. When the evidence is "irrefutable" then the execution should be swift and certain.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
I am amazed he got the death penalty..it wasn't murder wasn't premeditated just the escape was...or maybe it wasn't..the convict seen a sloppy moment on the part of the court and he went for it....
I'm not amazed at all. It was murder, and it was premeditated by conspiracy.

"Gardner was convicted of the fatal shooting death of Utah attorney Michael J. Burdell during an escape attempt and shootout at the old Metropolitan Hall of Justice in downtown Salt Lake City on April 2, 1985. He had been brought there for a hearing on charges in the 1984 robbery and fatal shooting of Melvyn John Otterstrom at a Salt Lake City bar. (another case where his guilt was a slam dunk without question no-brainer where a dozen witnesses all saw him point the gun at Otterstrom, threaten him, rob him, and then kill him when Otterstrom spoke after being told to shut up).

Although he was handcuffed and surrounded by prison guards, a female acquaintance slipped Gardner a loaded, long-barreled .22-caliber handgun in the basement of the building just before the shooting. He shot Burdell in the head, wounded a court bailiff and was himself shot in the right shoulder before being captured on the courthouse lawn as he tried to flee."

"Carma Jolley Hainsworth pleaded guilty to aiding in an escape and was sentenced to one to 15 years in prison. She has stood by her story that her sister passed the gun to Gardner but did admit collecting the clothes. The sister originally was charged with passing the gun, but charges later were dropped against her."

Whoever shot him in the shoulder should have fired about 5 more times, reloaded, and emptied the gun again. Maybe a shot or two into Carma Hainsworth, while they were at it. They didn't charge her with conspiracy because she was a woman, straight up. That's Utah for ya.
 

FIS53

Veteran Expediter
Leo I agree with the fact of the witnesses and video or DNA part, but killing comes in so many different ways. A person who accidentally kills someone (manslaughter) should not necessarily face the same sentence as someone who planned a killing. Those that kill in a situation where they did not plan to kill, but have weapons then yes they should face the harshest levels of justice.

I do agree that where the evidence is conclusive then the sentence should be carried out ASAP as there really is no reason for delay. Unfortunately we have too many in society who cry foul if we look at things that way and over the years our legislators have agreed with them.
Rob
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
I'm not so sure it is still "fair and just" when it takes so long. If the accused is given more rights, more concern, more everything than the victims and society,
Not commenting on the specific case at hand particularly, but one thing that the accused rarely has more of is freedom .... particularly in capital cases ...

And it is also rarely the case that the accused has anywhere near the resources as those who are arrayed against him ....

and that is the case with horrible organizations like the ACLU and others, then it is no longer fair and just.
The ACLU is a mixed bag - always has been, and probably always will be ....... they have been both on the right and wrong sides, in various instances, many, may times ..... (IMHO)

To say otherwise is to either be entirely ignorant of their history and record, or, being aware, just completely disingenuous ......

Victims, society and honest citizens need at least as many rights as the accused.
Until one has had all the resources and power of the state directed at them, one has absolutely no clue how far the deck is stacked against the accused ..... and how far wrong the administration of justice can go ....

If you don't believe that, then just read some of the case histories of the fellows who were wrongly convicted at the following link:

Innocence Project

In this particular case the convict killed a lawyer while attempting to escape from a courtroom in front of numerous witnesses. He should have been taken out to the courthouse lawn and a bullet put through his head right then and there.
Utterly wrong - in a nation of laws, which has, in it's highest law, the Constitution, the following enumerated right (also known as the 5th Amendment) that should never occur ...... ever:

"No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation."

Oh no! I've just given a few of our members apoplexy by suggesting the correct handling of such an incident compared to this quarter century of stupidity.
No apoplexy here ...... I'm just enjoying the rather ironic (and somewhat amusing) utter hypocrisy of someone who would suggest (apparently in earnest) the above method of "justice".... while having the following in their signature line:

"Support the entire Constitution, not just the parts you like."

Seriously .... I couldn't have made this one up if I had spent the entire rest of my life trying ..... :rolleyes:

Oh, and before the members who enjoy explaining what I mean get too enthused this is the short version of the abridged report of the condensed comments so it doesn't represent anything except the correct position on this specific incident.
No explanations here ...... none are needed .... your statements stand on their own ...... and out of your own mouth you both condemn, and convict, yourself.....
 
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Poorboy

Expert Expediter
I Live in Ohio:( and about a Month or so ago a Death Row Scum Bag was Brought to a Prison where he was to be Executed after being on Death Row For somewhere around 15-18 Years (Not Sure) While awaiting his Execution the Slime Bag attempted Suicide! The Infamous Governor Wasted Thousands of Dollars of Tax Payer Money Saving the Inmates Life Just to Execute Him 2 Weeks Later! How Lame is that?

Just Recently Another Scum Bag was Brought to the Same Prison to Await his Execution Day and was Put on a Suicide Watch to keep him from Harming Himself! The way I see it is that if they want to Kill Themselve's then Let them, They would be Saving the State And Tax Payers Thousands of Dollars....
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
We are talking execution here Greg not suing someone in a frivolous way....

Really?

You need a serious civics lesson on how it really works.

Actually it is exactly the same.

The system has been overloaded with "civil rights" violation suits by jailhouse lawyers who know how to delay things. This extends into the death row inmates too. If one thinks that some mass murder or baby killer has no legal recourse or legal advice, think again. There are lawyers out there who want to make names for themselves by using these animals and delay their execution by any means possible while others are looking for ways to get the guy life or even the conviction overturned.

With today's "we must be so sure we can bank on it" attitude, the courts and legal system forgot about the vicitms and focuses on the convict.
 

LDB

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
The ACLU is a prime example of the 80/20 rule. In this case it's 80% bad and 20% good and that's a best case scenario. It's probably more like 90/10.
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
The ACLU is a prime example of the 80/20 rule. In this case it's 80% bad and 20% good and that's a best case scenario. It's probably more like 90/10.
I would submit that you are probably not basing that statement on any actual knowledge of anything near the totality of the suits the ACLU has been involved in ..... it is solely an opinion, most likely based on the (apparently) uncontrollable emotions that result from hearing, reading or otherwise seeing the misguided outcomes from what constitute a small minority of the total cases ..... (as opposed to anything that would even approach - no matter how distantly - reasoned thought)

There is little evidence in the record (your's, here on EO) to suggest otherwise.

BTW ....... ya given any thought yet to modifying that sig line ..... so it reflects how you really feel ?
 
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RLENT

Veteran Expediter
Really? ..... Actually it is exactly the same.
Sorry greg,

But I'm afraid I can't the little bit of mental incapacity above pass uncommented upon .......

For anyone to suggest that facing the forfeiture of one's life is the exactly the same as say, being sued by one's neighbor because your dog crapped in their yard, is to demonstrate that one is wholly incapable of anything that would pass for what is considered rational thought by most sane reasonable people .... :cool:
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
For anyone to suggest that facing the forfeiture of one's life is the exactly the same as say, being sued by one's neighbor because your dog crapped in their yard, is to demonstrate that one is wholly incapable of anything that would pass for what is considered rational thought by most sane reasonable people .... :cool:

Rlent, don't take this wrong but did you read what I said?

I am not talking about someone suing a neighbor over a dog cr*ping in a yard but inmates who are serving time using the legal system to file suits for reasons of delaying other processes which are part of the punishment. This practice extends past things like Twinkies and candy suits and goes into suits on behalf of death row inmates to cause some delays within the system under some state laws.

One of the most recent suits, Baze v. Rees was sent to the SC based on lethal injection is cruel and unusual punishment to stop executions. There have been a lot more of these, most never make it into the news and some never get past the judge and are dismissed. These are all frivolous suits and a delaying tactics which takes up legal resources regardless how you cut it.

Appeals, legitimate appeals for specific cases for inmates on death row with specific procedural flaws IS NOT what I am talking about as you know. Failure of Evidence Disclosure I think is one of the big ones that seems to overturn cases if I remember right but there are so many and most of the decisions made at the appellate level have to do with these procedural issues, not whether or not the punishment is cruel and unusual.
 

AMonger

Veteran Expediter
It doesn't matter if it was premeditated, not at all. He killed another person and even if it was a lawyer it was still killing.

Being that it was just a lawyer, shouldn't he just be charged with discharging a firearm in the city limits?
 

LDB

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
That would only work if we knew he wouldn't be a threat to any non-lawyers in the future. :rolleyes:
 

Poorboy

Expert Expediter
Being that it was just a lawyer, shouldn't he just be charged with discharging a firearm in the city limits?

:D Maybe even Aggravated Mopery in the Day Season without a License! :D
Seriously Though, It's Sad when Anyone loses their life (Even a Lawyer) by the Stupidity of Others whether it be Intentional or Accidental. This P.O.S. Should have been sent on to the Here After a Looooong Time Ago!
 
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