The Trump Card...

ATeam

Senior Member
Retired Expediter
Says Cohen. Just because Cohen says it doesn't make it true. Cohen has his own motivations to lie or embellish, funny forget that.

The Washington Post addresses the Trump's word against Cohen's argument you make. In this case, it's not one person's word against the others. There are witnesses and physical evidence.

In case you doubt the strength of the case: Did you notice all the other people implicated in Cohen’s plea? There is “Corporation-1,” presumably American Media Inc. (AMI), which owns the National Enquirer (“Magazine-1”). Members of Corporation-1 (including editor in chief, or “Editor-1”) would presumably have information and be able to corroborate Cohen’s account regarding the Karen McDougal payoff. The information document filed against Cohen also notes the existence of a text between Editor-1 and Cohen, corroboration of the arrangement to pay off a second woman, presumably Stormy Daniels. An encrypted phone call is also mentioned, as is an attorney (one more witness!) who represented both women. And let’s not forget the “executives of the Company” [Trump’s] who “grossed up” the reimbursement to Cohen; that’s two or more additional witnesses. We learn that “Executive-1” received the request or reimbursement and shared it with more executives. More witnesses. In Count 7, Cohen is accused of enabling Corporation-1 to make an illegal corporate campaign donation. That means the company and/or its executives might have liability as well. Count 8 mentions campaign executives (who might they be? how many?) who worked with Cohen to effectuate the scheme.

In sum, it’s not Cohen’s word against Trump’s, but rather a raft of witnesses whom prosecutors have or will be able to talk to (some to avoid liability of their own) and documents as well. There is, in short, a ton of evidence out there concerning the campaign finance scheme to make sure two women didn’t mess up Trump’s chances of getting elected.
 

muttly

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
So says a prosecutor in NY as a result of a plea agreement. It wasn't adjudicated.

Muttly, your post prompted me to look up "adjudicated" in Wikipedia.

In court
"The legal process of resolving a dispute. The formal giving or pronouncing of a judgment or decree in a court proceeding; also the judgment or decision given. The entry of a decree by a court in respect to the parties in a case. It implies a hearing by a court, after notice, of legal evidence on the factual issue(s) involved. The equivalent of a determination. It indicates that the claims of all the parties thereto have been considered and set at rest."[2]


By this definition, it looks to me that the case was indeed adjudicated when the court accepted the plea.

A large leap to go impeachment proceedings because Trump had a couple nondisclosure agreements. If anything, Trump would have a case for breach of contract. Nondisclosure agreements happen all the time. Now the Left wants to criminalize them. Lol.

You are correct. NDAs are common and there was nothing illegal in the NDAs themselves. Trump's actions relative to the NDAs with the two women are crimes because (1) he created them (or directed them to be created) to influence the outcome of an election, (2) he failed to report the money spent on them as campaign contributions, (3) the amount of the campaign contributions exceeded legal limits, (4) he tried to cover up these actions, and (5) he conspired with others to commit these crimes.

When Trump is charged with these crimes, it won't be because he had NDAs. It will be because he committed serious violations of campaign finance law.

By the way, it would be hard to say Trump, the great negotiator and wise businessman, got his money's worth out of these NDAs. Neither woman abided by them, both kept the money and neither were sued for damages.
Serious violation of campaign finance law. Sounds ominous.
What's the "legal limit" for a candidate to donate to his own campaign? Candidates who have a lot of personal finances often spend on their own campaign. We just had a candidate for Gov. In Michigan spend 10 million on his campaign.
 

Ragman

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
So says a prosecutor in NY as a result of a plea agreement. It wasn't adjudicated.

Muttly, your post prompted me to look up "adjudicated" in Wikipedia.

In court
"The legal process of resolving a dispute. The formal giving or pronouncing of a judgment or decree in a court proceeding; also the judgment or decision given. The entry of a decree by a court in respect to the parties in a case. It implies a hearing by a court, after notice, of legal evidence on the factual issue(s) involved. The equivalent of a determination. It indicates that the claims of all the parties thereto have been considered and set at rest."[2]


By this definition, it looks to me that the case was indeed adjudicated when the court accepted the plea.

A large leap to go impeachment proceedings because Trump had a couple nondisclosure agreements. If anything, Trump would have a case for breach of contract. Nondisclosure agreements happen all the time. Now the Left wants to criminalize them. Lol.

You are correct. NDAs are common and there was nothing illegal in the NDAs themselves. Trump's actions relative to the NDAs with the two women are crimes because (1) he created them (or directed them to be created) to influence the outcome of an election, (2) he failed to report the money spent on them as campaign contributions, (3) the amount of the campaign contributions exceeded legal limits, (4) he tried to cover up these actions, and (5) he conspired with others to commit these crimes.

When Trump is charged with these crimes, it won't be because he had NDAs. It will be because he committed serious violations of campaign finance law.

By the way, it would be hard to say Trump, the great negotiator and wise businessman, got his money's worth out of these NDAs. Neither woman abided by them, both kept the money and neither were sued for damages.
Serious violation of campaign finance law. Sounds ominous.
What's the "legal limit" for a candidate to donate to his own campaign? Candidates who have a lot of personal finances often spend on their own campaign. We just had a candidate for Gov. In Michigan spend 10 million on his campaign.
They were loans...
Thanedar pours $10 million into governor campaign
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
What's the "legal limit" for a candidate to donate to his own campaign?

$2,700. This piece explains how Trump ran afoul of the law.
That entire piece is predicated on the belief that the payments were made solely to influence the campaign. That's an easy one to allege, but far more difficult to prove. If Trump has a history of paying off mistresses at times when he was not a candidate, it becomes even more difficult to prove.
 

muttly

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
So says a prosecutor in NY as a result of a plea agreement. It wasn't adjudicated.

Muttly, your post prompted me to look up "adjudicated" in Wikipedia.

In court
"The legal process of resolving a dispute. The formal giving or pronouncing of a judgment or decree in a court proceeding; also the judgment or decision given. The entry of a decree by a court in respect to the parties in a case. It implies a hearing by a court, after notice, of legal evidence on the factual issue(s) involved. The equivalent of a determination. It indicates that the claims of all the parties thereto have been considered and set at rest."[2]


By this definition, it looks to me that the case was indeed adjudicated when the court accepted the plea.

A large leap to go impeachment proceedings because Trump had a couple nondisclosure agreements. If anything, Trump would have a case for breach of contract. Nondisclosure agreements happen all the time. Now the Left wants to criminalize them. Lol.

You are correct. NDAs are common and there was nothing illegal in the NDAs themselves. Trump's actions relative to the NDAs with the two women are crimes because (1) he created them (or directed them to be created) to influence the outcome of an election, (2) he failed to report the money spent on them as campaign contributions, (3) the amount of the campaign contributions exceeded legal limits, (4) he tried to cover up these actions, and (5) he conspired with others to commit these crimes.

When Trump is charged with these crimes, it won't be because he had NDAs. It will be because he committed serious violations of campaign finance law.

By the way, it would be hard to say Trump, the great negotiator and wise businessman, got his money's worth out of these NDAs. Neither woman abided by them, both kept the money and neither were sued for damages.
Serious violation of campaign finance law. Sounds ominous.
What's the "legal limit" for a candidate to donate to his own campaign? Candidates who have a lot of personal finances often spend on their own campaign. We just had a candidate for Gov. In Michigan spend 10 million on his campaign.
They were loans...
Thanedar pours $10 million into governor campaign
Which shows how campaign donations can be a complicated process. He uses his own money and is reimbursed by donors later. Meanwhile some want to move for impeachment against the President because he had his lawyer pay off a couple mistresses.
 

Grizzly

Veteran Expediter
Owner/Operator
What's the "legal limit" for a candidate to donate to his own campaign?

$2,700. This piece explains how Trump ran afoul of the law.
That entire piece is predicated on the belief that the payments were made solely to influence the campaign. That's an easy one to allege, but far more difficult to prove. If Trump has a history of paying off mistresses at times when he was not a candidate, it becomes even more difficult to prove.

Let's wait and see .....
Maybe there's more to learn from the Cohen tapes.
If Trump is recorded as saying the intent was to influence the election ..... is it true? o_O:)
 

muttly

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Arguments from lawyers from both sides. Some say Trump broke a law. Some say no way. A lot of ambiguity. Not something to go to the brink of impeachment over. Most people won't understand the nuances of the law. Intent is part of law too. Trump may not have even known about any possible campaign spending violation. After all he was a novice to the politician business. Reasonable to believe he didn't know that he broke a law. IMO he didnt. But putting that out there for the sake of argument.
 

muttly

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
What's the "legal limit" for a candidate to donate to his own campaign?

$2,700. This piece explains how Trump ran afoul of the law.
That entire piece is predicated on the belief that the payments were made solely to influence the campaign. That's an easy one to allege, but far more difficult to prove. If Trump has a history of paying off mistresses at times when he was not a candidate, it becomes even more difficult to prove.

Let's wait and see .....
Maybe there's more to learn from the Cohen tapes.
If Trump is recorded as saying the intent was to influence the election ..... is it true? o_O:)
I see what you did there. If the Left only believes that all Trump does is lie. Then they would have to believe that what he is saying on the tape is the absolute truth.:D
 
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muttly

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Michael Cohen's lawyer Lanny Davis is on record saying his client wouldn't accept a pardon from Trump. Lol.
Davis also represented Cohen to plea to a crime that wasn't a crime.
Attorney Michael Cohen tapes his clients.
His prospects of future clients looks pretty grim, even after the jail time.
Two of the worst lawyers ever.
 
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Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
Most people won't understand the nuances of the law. Intent is part of law too.
In the case of campaign finance laws, knowing and willful intent is the critical base of the law. Says so right there in the law itself. It's one of the laws you can legitimately plead ignorance. Absent a tape with clear and unambiguous intent on Trump's part, there's no way this is going anywhere other than on MSM media outlets who have been pining for impeachment since inauguration day.

Polling shows Democrats think this rises to an impeachment level offense. Republicans, obviously do not. Most importantly, Independents overwhelming do not believe it rises to that level.
 
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ATeam

Senior Member
Retired Expediter
Michael Cohen's lawyer Lanny Davis is on record saying his client wouldn't accept a pardon from Trump.

That is correct. It's a curious development but true nevertheless.

Davis also represented Cohen to plea to a crime that wasn't a crime.

In what world does a federal judge allow anyone plead guilty to something that is not a crime? In what world does a federal judge allow something to be charged by a prosecutor that is not a crime? In what world would a defense attorney allow a non-crime to appear unchallenged in the charging documents? When in the the entire history of the U.S. courts has such a thing been allowed to happen?

Such things may be imagined to happen in Trump World where logic and perception are twisted to fit the mind of an extreme narcissist. They do not happen in the real world where the truth might be obscured for a time but generally prevails in the long run.

Attorney Michael Cohen tapes his clients.

Much to his clients' chagrin.

His prospects of future clients looks pretty grim, even after the jail time.

Cohen will be disbarred and will never have a law client again. He knew that when he pleaded guilty.

Two of the worst lawyers ever.

I know of no one who says Cohen was a particularly good lawyer (except perhaps Trump at one time). Indeed, the actual practice of law was something Cohen did little of. He represented a tiny handful of clients at most. Cohen was not operating a full-time law firm. It seems he was more of a businessman with a law degree. In addition to his taxi business, he found a way to make money by working for Trump in various capacities (lawyer, fixer, errand boy).

Saying Cohen is one of the worst lawyers ever is akin to saying I'm one of the worst baseball players ever. While I've played the game a few times, I'm not good at it like a truly good player is, and don't try to be.

Lanny Davis (Cohen's attorney) is a good attorney. He has Cohen going to jail for five years instead of the many more he might otherwise have been sentenced to. He's helping his client take further action that may further benefit Cohen. He's working the media circuit to paint Cohen as a reformed truth teller and sympathetic figure who is about to be torn from his family and do time in prison for his admittedly evil deeds.

Granted, that would not be much of a reputation boost for someone who was a previously upstanding citizen, but Cohen is not coming from such a place. Davis's PR work is working. The media is not blasting Cohen as an evil manipulator as they once did. Now they're challenging Cohen to continue on his present path and provide more of what he recently gave.

Regarding the sincerity of Cohen's reported transformation to a man who does the right things for the right reasons, I don't know what to think. It's not like Cohen was a trustworthy figure before. On the other hand, it's not uncommon in our human experience to see a new light and change one's ways. We all know people for whom that has happened (religious conversions, radical career changes, breaking free of oppressive family situations, life-changing new approaches to health and fitness, etc.). It's possible a genuine transformation is underway for Cohen.

Whether it is real or not, it matters little to me. My focus is on my prediction that Trump will be impeached. Cohen's recent actions in court are real and they increase the likelihood that Trump will be impeached.[/QUOTE]
 
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ATeam

Senior Member
Retired Expediter
Most people won't understand the nuances of the law. Intent is part of law too.
In the case of campaign finance laws, knowing and willful intent is the critical base of the law. Says so right there in the law itself. It's one of the laws you can legitimately plead ignorance. Absent a tape with clear and unambiguous intent on Trump's part, there's no way this is going anywhere other than on MSM media outlets who have been pining for impeachment since inauguration day.

Polling shows Democrats think this rises to an impeachment level offense. Republicans, obviously do not. Most importantly, Independents overwhelming do not believe it rises to that level.

Our views of campaign finance law and their significance to the matters at hand differ. Time will tell how this plays out in the courts and congress.
 

ATeam

Senior Member
Retired Expediter
I see what you did there. If the Left only believes that all Trump does is lie. Then they would have to believe that what he is saying on the tape is the absolute truth.:D

That's an interesting defense of Trump. He is a known liar, so it's possible he is lying on the tapes. And since it is possible this known liar is lying, he's not in trouble.
 
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ATeam

Senior Member
Retired Expediter
I mentioned above that Trump is weaker than he was before Tuesday's developments. The Trump Foundation investigation is a case in point. Cohen's new willingness to cooperate with investigators is making it easier for them to proceed. A breakthrough in one investigation fuels breakthroughs in others.

In other words, the chickens are coming home to roost.
 
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ATeam

Senior Member
Retired Expediter
Michael Cohen's lawyer Lanny Davis is on record saying his client wouldn't accept a pardon from Trump.

That is correct. It's a curious development but true nevertheless.

Davis also represented Cohen to plea to a crime that wasn't a crime.

In what world does a federal judge allow anyone plead guilty to something that is not a crime? In what world does a federal judge allow something to be charged by a prosecutor that is not a crime? In what world would a defense attorney allow a non-crime to appear unchallenged in the charging documents? When in the the entire history of the U.S. courts has such a thing been allowed to happen?

Such things may be imagined to happen in Trump World where logic and perception are twisted to fit the mind of an extreme narcissist. They do not happen in the real world where the truth might be obscured for a time but generally prevails in the long run.

Attorney Michael Cohen tapes his clients.

Much to his clients' chagrin.

His prospects of future clients looks pretty grim, even after the jail time.

Cohen will be disbarred and will never have a law client again. He knew that when he pleaded guilty.

Two of the worst lawyers ever.

I know of no one who says Cohen was a particularly good lawyer, except perhaps Trump at one time. After all, Trump did retain Cohen for many years. Beyond his legal work for Trump, the actual practice of law was something Cohen did little of. He represented a tiny handful of clients at most. Cohen was not operating a full-time law firm. It seems he was more of a businessman with a law degree. In addition to his taxi business, he found a way to make money by working for Trump in various capacities (lawyer, fixer, errand boy).

Saying Cohen is one of the worst lawyers ever is akin to saying I'm one of the worst baseball players ever. While I've played the game a few times, I'm not good at it like a truly good player is, and I don't try to be.

Lanny Davis (Cohen's attorney) is a good attorney. He has Cohen going to jail for five years instead of the many more he might otherwise have been sentenced to. He's helping his client take further action that may further benefit Cohen. He's working the media circuit to paint Cohen as a reformed truth teller and sympathetic figure who is about to be torn from his family and do time in prison for his admittedly evil deeds.

Granted, that would not be much of a reputation boost for someone who was a previously upstanding citizen, but Cohen is not coming from such a place. Davis's PR work is working. The media is not blasting Cohen as an evil manipulator as they once did. Now they're challenging Cohen to continue on his present path and provide more of what he recently gave.

Regarding the sincerity of Cohen's reported transformation to a man who does the right things for the right reasons, I don't know what to think. It's not like Cohen was a trustworthy figure before. On the other hand, it's not uncommon in our human experience to see a new light and change one's ways. We all know people for whom that has happened (religious conversions, radical career changes, breaking free of oppressive family situations, life-changing new approaches to health and fitness, etc.). It's possible a genuine transformation is underway for Cohen.

Whether it is real or not, it matters little to me. My focus is on my prediction that Trump will be impeached. Cohen's recent actions in court are real and they increase the likelihood that Trump will be impeached.
 

muttly

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Michael Cohen's lawyer Lanny Davis is on record saying his client wouldn't accept a pardon from Trump.

That is correct. It's a curious development but true nevertheless.

Davis also represented Cohen to plea to a crime that wasn't a crime.

In what world does a federal judge allow anyone plead guilty to something that is not a crime? In what world does a federal judge allow something to be charged by a prosecutor that is not a crime? In what world would a defense attorney allow a non-crime to appear unchallenged in the charging documents? When in the the entire history of the U.S. courts has such a thing been allowed to happen?

Such things may be imagined to happen in Trump World where logic and perception are twisted to fit the mind of an extreme narcissist. They do not happen in the real world where the truth might be obscured for a time but generally prevails in the long run.

Attorney Michael Cohen tapes his clients.

Much to his clients' chagrin.

His prospects of future clients looks pretty grim, even after the jail time.

Cohen will be disbarred and will never have a law client again. He knew that when he pleaded guilty.

Two of the worst lawyers ever.

I know of no one who says Cohen was a particularly good lawyer (except perhaps Trump at one time). Indeed, the actual practice of law was something Cohen did little of. He represented a tiny handful of clients at most. Cohen was not operating a full-time law firm. It seems he was more of a businessman with a law degree. In addition to his taxi business, he found a way to make money by working for Trump in various capacities (lawyer, fixer, errand boy).

Saying Cohen is one of the worst lawyers ever is akin to saying I'm one of the worst baseball players ever. While I've played the game a few times, I'm not good at it like a truly good player is, and don't try to be.

Lanny Davis (Cohen's attorney) is a good attorney. He has Cohen going to jail for five years instead of the many more he might otherwise have been sentenced to. He's helping his client take further action that may further benefit Cohen. He's working the media circuit to paint Cohen as a reformed truth teller and sympathetic figure who is about to be torn from his family and do time in prison for his admittedly evil deeds.

Granted, that would not be much of a reputation boost for someone who was a previously upstanding citizen, but Cohen is not coming from such a place. Davis's PR work is working. The media is not blasting Cohen as an evil manipulator as they once did. Now they're challenging Cohen to continue on his present path and provide more of what he recently gave.

Regarding the sincerity of Cohen's reported transformation to a man who does the right things for the right reasons, I don't know what to think. It's not like Cohen was a trustworthy figure before. On the other hand, it's not uncommon in our human experience to see a new light and change one's ways. We all know people for whom that has happened (religious conversions, radical career changes, breaking free of oppressive family situations, life-changing new approaches to health and fitness, etc.). It's possible a genuine transformation is underway for Cohen.

Whether it is real or not, it matters little to me. My focus is on my prediction that Trump will be impeached. Cohen's recent actions in court are real and they increase the likelihood that Trump will be impeached.
[/QUOTE]
The Press rushing to Cohen's side doesn't have much to do about Davis' prowess as a lawyer. It is just the Fake News Press salivating about any dirt that may hurt Trump. Anybody that has any type of working BS meter will indicate to them that Cohen's "transformation" is about him working to get as little jail time as possible and likely composing to a certain extent. What did it for him was Helsinki.:rolleyes:

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ATeam

Senior Member
Retired Expediter
In the case of campaign finance laws, knowing and willful intent is the critical base of the law. Says so right there in the law itself. It's one of the laws you can legitimately plead ignorance. Absent a tape with clear and unambiguous intent on Trump's part, there's no way this is going anywhere other than on MSM media outlets who have been pining for impeachment since inauguration day.

It appears it's getting easier to prove intent. News broke today that Trump's friend David Pecker, American Media, Inc. CEO, received immunity from prosecution to free him to talk about the hush money payments in question. Another person with American Media also received immunity. That makes three people who can attest to Trump's acts and intent. Two of the three know Trump well and are well positioned to testify about Trump's intent.
 
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