Was His Death A Wake-Up Call?

clcooper

Expert Expediter
But there isn't one in the example Cheri brought up or the one I used, there simply isn't one. .

A conflict of interest occurs when an individual or organization is involved in multiple interests, one of which could possibly corrupt the motivation for an act in the other.

A conflict of interest can only exist if a person or testimony is entrusted with some impartiality; a modicum of trust is necessary to create it. The presence of a conflict of interest is independent from the execution of impropriety. Therefore, a conflict of interest can be discovered and voluntarily defused before any corruption occurs..


GO try it for a while and than ask the question. I don't see people building roads handling 40 feet sections of pipe swinging overhead while machinery is moving are 10mph while putting a downward force on the pipe in the ground at 200psi, do you?

The labor to handle the pipe, to setup the rig, to ensure that the environmental controls are in place is nothing like breaking up concrete, putting into a truck and than dumping gravel, grading it and putting a road down, right? - there is simply no comparison because of the work involved. Oh one thing that you can do with road building and house building is stop where in Oil I think there is a limited time to work drilling before there are other issues.

Nope not the same. Try it and see what I'm talking about. .

nope i was never in a 2 foot wide ditch while the track hoe was placeing a 20 ft concrete pipe . nope i never set guild rail post where the post ponder was a free falling 1500 lb steel . nope i never ran a pan on a single wide 3 story high loose fill pile because no room to go wider . nope i never set over head signs over a highway either .
and i guess when they drill for well water they use plastic pipe and a house hold drill too .

nope building houses or roads dont have to worry about time . yep tomorrow it looks like rain . oh well it is quiting time .

and i bet a lot of constrution companies wished it was just as easy as you said it is .and yep blacktop is a real cool temperature . it is never 300 F + yep they got all day to empty that truck load

and yep logging is a easy job too . oil is the hardest job ever . wake up
So what is the way it should be?

Having a president with his people making fascist moves so his 'freinds' can profit from the tax payer's?

Or having people who are just workers and can be replaced being rewarded for nothing more than providing labor to a company that they were part of the ruin of? .
ok you win the working people should just all bow down a say YES MASTER and act like the slaves they are to be .

Greed is part of the word power, politics is a means to get power. There is a difference between the business owner/ceo who wants to see their business a success and that of a politician who's only goal is to gain the power and be elected to keep it.

IF you equate greed of the ceo with the politician, than you have to look at all the people as lazy and accepting their fate willingly.

Greed is an excessive desire to possess wealth or goods with the intention to keep it for one's self. Greed is inappropriate expectation. However, greed is applied to a very excessive or rapacious desire and pursuit of wealth, status, and power.

As a secular psychological concept, greed is an inordinate desire to acquire or possess more than one needs or deserves, especially with respect to material wealth.

what is Extortion
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
A conflict of interest occurs when an individual or organization is involved in multiple interests, one of which could possibly corrupt the motivation for an act in the other.

A conflict of interest can only exist if a person or testimony is entrusted with some impartiality; a modicum of trust is necessary to create it. The presence of a conflict of interest is independent from the execution of impropriety. Therefore, a conflict of interest can be discovered and voluntarily defused before any corruption occurs..

OK thanks for the Wiki definition of conflict of interest but you failed to provide any proof to the argument that having an exec or representative of an industry sitting in on a bill planning session as part of the procedures is anywhere a conflict of interest on either parties part?

To bring this to another level, the congress committee or group providing access to the bill creation process isn't causing what is considered a recusal situation by providing that said access. It is pretty much not an ethical issue unless there is a clear and distinct issue of self-dealing on the side of congress, which in many cases appears to be but isn't under our campaign laws.

Furthermore the real issue here is to provide some sort of evidence instead of conjecture, which no one has. What I mean is you claim that there is a conflict of interest, Cheri claims it is the evil companies controlling things and both seem to be leading to Cheri's claim that the US is clearly a BIG business friendly country that craps on the little guy. Not one shred of evidence seems to exist to support all those claims, the problem I pointed out to Cheri is in order to make the claim, you have to compare US with THEM. The other part of that is until you and Cheri have a clear understanding that a company, no matter what size they are, has really no moral obligations to their workers other then treating them fairly while work for the company, the idea that layoffs or hiring is something that can be prevented or done on demand respectfully.

So at this point, it is a moot point you are making.

nope i was never in a 2 foot wide ditch while the track hoe was placeing a 20 ft concrete pipe . nope i never set guild rail post where the post ponder was a free falling 1500 lb steel . nope i never ran a pan on a single wide 3 story high loose fill pile because no room to go wider . nope i never set over head signs over a highway either .
and i guess when they drill for well water they use plastic pipe and a house hold drill too .

nope building houses or roads dont have to worry about time . yep tomorrow it looks like rain . oh well it is quiting time .

and i bet a lot of constrution companies wished it was just as easy as you said it is .and yep blacktop is a real cool temperature . it is never 300 F + yep they got all day to empty that truck load

and yep logging is a easy job too . oil is the hardest job ever . wake up

Well see here is the thing, I have a lot of family who work in the construction industry, from underground to general contracting to specialty stuff. Some of them worked in oil and in logging and they all said the same thing - it is easier in construction than in oil.

I also can't see what you are driving at with your experience, no matter what the work is, it can be dangerous, the difference is the level of danger that one sees during the times they work. You are not in danger cutting a ditch to lay the pipe in, unless you are in the trench with an operator who is clueless. You may run a pan up on a pile of loose dirt with only the width of the pan but you are not taking slopes out with a track machine at a 45 degree angle. You maybe hanging a sign but you don't do that from the time you get there to the time you leave.


ok you win the working people should just all bow down a say YES MASTER and act like the slaves they are to be .

But you didn't answer the question.

By the way, the workers in this country are not just those who do labor things, like put a nut on a bolt, they are actually everyone, including managers and professionals. I think using the Marxist definition of worker is getting pretty tiring, seeing that the middle class was not the workers but the professionals in our society until the unions decided to hijack the term.


Greed is an excessive desire to possess wealth or goods with the intention to keep it for one's self. Greed is inappropriate expectation. However, greed is applied to a very excessive or rapacious desire and pursuit of wealth, status, and power.

As a secular psychological concept, greed is an inordinate desire to acquire or possess more than one needs or deserves, especially with respect to material wealth.

what is Extortion

Another Wiki definition, and another misplaced issue.

Greed comes in different forms, money, material things are just one aspect of greed. The power that money brings is part of the greed factor, the idea that you can laud things over the head of others to cause envy is also another part of it. Putting up a definition like that shows me you don't get what I'm saying and maybe reading again what I said will help you.

Neal Boortz has a little thing he says about the circle of political truth, I can't think what the name is that he calls it so I call it that - the circle of political truth. He says that a person gets into politics maybe with good intentions but they always seem to do the same thing - try to hold onto power no matter what. This means that they will bring to the people that elected them stuff to keep them happy while entrenching themselves in the seat they hold. The more money they bring back home, the more they can raise money to help them get reelected and the more they get reelected, the more power they gain to bring more stuff home to the people who elect them. I know I didn't say it right, he does a great job explaining it but the point is that greed is power, power is greed.
 
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Ragman

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
I thought the OP was about a bad tooth> I dunno, where is Ragman , we need a pic soon.:D

Caries3.jpg
 

clcooper

Expert Expediter
OK thanks for the Wiki definition of conflict of interest but you failed to provide any proof to the argument that having an exec or representative of an industry sitting in on a bill planning session as part of the procedures is anywhere a conflict of interest on either parties part? .
no we cant do that we would never be able to get our money back . or what about cant do that because we wont be able to over charge .

Furthermore the real issue here is to provide some sort of evidence instead of conjecture, which no one has. What I mean is you claim that there is a conflict of interest, Cheri claims it is the evil companies controlling things and both seem to be leading to Cheri's claim that the US is clearly a BIG business friendly country that craps on the little guy. Not one shred of evidence seems to exist to support all those claims, the problem I pointed out to Cheri is in order to make the claim, you have to compare US with THEM. The other part of that is until you and Cheri have a clear understanding that a company, no matter what size they are, has really no moral obligations to their workers other then treating them fairly while work for the company, the idea that layoffs or hiring is something that can be prevented or done on demand respectfully. .
who cares about the other countries . there is enough US against THEM in the USA . and no you dont have to compare us with them . that is just like comparing apples to pears .
treating the workers fairly right . and who decides that . and stop and think how big will companies be without the workers . (slaves)


Well see here is the thing, I have a lot of family who work in the construction industry, from underground to general contracting to specialty stuff. Some of them worked in oil and in logging and they all said the same thing - it is easier in construction than in oil. .
just how big is your family you have a family member in every thing ever done in the world . you have what 100 siblings . you drive and you do this and do that . what you talk to them for what 5 minutes a year a can get all that information from each and everyone of them . wake up
I also can't see what you are driving at with your experience, no matter what the work is, it can be dangerous, the difference is the level of danger that one sees during the times they work. You are not in danger cutting a ditch to lay the pipe in, unless you are in the trench with an operator who is clueless. You may run a pan up on a pile of loose dirt with only the width of the pan but you are not taking slopes out with a track machine at a 45 degree angle. You maybe hanging a sign but you don't do that from the time you get there to the time you leave. .
did you ever do any of the stuff you talk about . in a ditch you arent in no danger . WAKE UP have you never heard of a ditch falling in on workers . and i have seen track machinces on steeper slopes doing work . ALL DAY LONG TOO.
ok hanging a sign doesnt take all day . how long do you think it takes . 5 min. 1 hour. ?? how about half a day . and that sign only weighed what 5 pounds . 1ton how about 30 ton . 40 feet in the air over 4 lanes of traffic . how about just working along a road with live traffic . because people hate being held up . they dont slow down . how many have been killed on a oil rig because the pipe fell . then how many road constrtion has been killed by a passing vehicle .
i would have NO problem working on a oil rig . would you

But you didn't answer the question.
something you need to say to your self many times
By the way, the workers in this country are not just those who do labor things, like put a nut on a bolt, they are actually everyone, including managers and professionals. I think using the Marxist definition of worker is getting pretty tiring, seeing that the middle class was not the workers but the professionals in our society until the unions decided to hijack the term. .
who asked who was middle class . i didnt . i dont care either . each and every person has a job to do . and today it is not being done . just because you have a professional job doesnt make you a professional. just because you are a manager doesnt make you a manager . just like a logger his job is to cut trees down and do it safety . if he cant cut a tree down is he a logger . if he cant do it safety is he a professional logger

Greed comes in different forms, money, material things are just one aspect of greed. The power that money brings is part of the greed factor, the idea that you can laud things over the head of others to cause envy is also another part of it. Putting up a definition like that shows me you don't get what I'm saying and maybe reading again what I said will help you.

Neal Boortz has a little thing he says about the circle of political truth, I can't think what the name is that he calls it so I call it that - the circle of political truth. He says that a person gets into politics maybe with good intentions but they always seem to do the same thing - try to hold onto power no matter what. This means that they will bring to the people that elected them stuff to keep them happy while entrenching themselves in the seat they hold. The more money they bring back home, the more they can raise money to help them get reelected and the more they get reelected, the more power they gain to bring more stuff home to the people who elect them. I know I didn't say it right, he does a great job explaining it but the point is that greed is power, power is greed.

you sure do like to say what other people have said . how about you thinking for yourself once .
what is greed ??
what is slavery??
what is Extortion ??
what is conspiracy ??
what is Politics ??
what is conflict of interest ??
do you see any of this happen today ??

all i can say look at the links i posted in the thread i started about drinking the koolaid .

http://www.expeditersonline.com/forum/soapbox/50061-so-you-say-you-dont-drink-koolaid-you-sure.html
 

cheri1122

Veteran Expediter
Driver
Greg: don't agree that the term 'business friendly' requires comparison with how other countries do things. When a product [say, a computer] is described as 'user friendly', does it require comparison to other categories? It either is or it isn't - no comparison needed.
A big part of the reason is in the quote you ended with, except it isn't so much the voters the pols work to keep happy [they just have to 'promise them anything', is all - they rarely have to make good on it], it's the deep pockets that make it possible to get elected. Or re. Generally by outspending the other guy.
And we all know who has deep pockets, don't we?
Banking is an industry that has had it's way at consumers expense for a very long time, and so is big pharm, and there are quite a few others, too - the proof is something I could dig up, but it'd be tedious, and for what? My point is that regs are written to satisfy the industries more than the consumers/workers/customers who pay taxes to have that representation.
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
Greg: don't agree that the term 'business friendly' requires comparison with how other countries do things. When a product [say, a computer] is described as 'user friendly', does it require comparison to other categories? It either is or it isn't - no comparison needed.

Well OK, I see your point but the problem comes down to knowing what business freindly is when we speak of how we should and should not attract businesses to our shores. No matter if you want to make the case for it to be or not to be, you have to understand a few important points;

1 - we, like it or not are part of a global economy, and have been since we were founded. Our monetary system to our pre-1970's regulations are all founded on the premise that we have to deal with the outside world and work within that structure.

2 - the country competes for those jobs with other countries. This is the raw nature of business, be it local or country wide - there is a competition that goes on.

3 - we have to understand countries like India or Germany to get a clear idea of what we should be or shouldn't be doing, not just in the way of treating people, or environmental regulations but rather how we can use their ideas for us to have ... convince Honda open a plant here to employ people here instead of Mumbia India.

Now if we want to make the statement that we are business friendly, it matters that we understand what business friendly is on the global scale just for those reasons alone.

You speak of jobs, good quality jobs, so I have to ask and not trying to be a smart a** but how do you think that these jobs are created? I mean do you think that these businesses have an unlimited supply of money or do you think that they will look at the best place to make a long term commitment to a city or state on a with due diligence?

A big part of the reason is in the quote you ended with, except it isn't so much the voters the pols work to keep happy [they just have to 'promise them anything', is all - they rarely have to make good on it], it's the deep pockets that make it possible to get elected. Or re. Generally by outspending the other guy.
And we all know who has deep pockets, don't we?

Well first the spending of the money sometimes doesn't equate to a winning election but also it doesn't mean that the people are not responsible for their elected officials.

What I mean with that is that the fault of the problems isn't with the companies sitting in committee meetings, it is the fault of the people not holding them accountable during their term in office.

What I think will actually solve a lot of the issues you have and pretty much what I have is a clear way to recall a sitting representative - the only federal thing I can think of that would have a legitimate need for the people and the state. Recall the idiots with no chance to hold office again and the people will have their say more often than not.

But this does not mean I can't see the real problems, from the campaign funding that never is turned back to the public to the way we elect our senators - it all is a problem and I would want to see it changed not because of the fairness to some but for the entire country to return to some sane politics again.

Banking is an industry that has had it's way at consumers expense for a very long time, and so is big pharm, and there are quite a few others, too - the proof is something I could dig up, but it'd be tedious, and for what? My point is that regs are written to satisfy the industries more than the consumers/workers/customers who pay taxes to have that representation.

Well I take the last part you said, and yes I agree, regulations are sometimes written to satisfy the industry more than the consumers but look at the regulations and then look at the laws and see where the compromises are met and which ones are worst.

For example, I had to deal with the EEOC on a subject I won't get into here. I was so surprised that the laws are written to make it nearly impossible for certain cases of abuse to be investigated and to be sent on to the courts for adjudication. This is not because of the laws written favor the business but as I found out the laws were written to limit the amount of work the people at the EEOC were to do so they wouldn't have to hire people and worst of all because they wanted a limited amount of workload in that department. I won't get into the details but needless to say, that this is one of many examples of how things are done and why I say those who are working in the federal government are the ones with the most access.
 
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