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The Trump Card...

muttly

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The article of impeachment and subsequent documentation by prosecutors will supply what you seek in due course.
Alrighty then. I thought you had your own view about whether it was an incitement to riot and an intersection.
 

muttly

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Absolutly not!
The proper thing to do is always admit defeat and congratulate your opponent.

That said, i wish Hillary would just shut up and go away.
You do realize the Left have refused to admit that they lost and Trump won for the past 4 years.
 

ATeam

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Alrighty then. I thought you had your own view about whether it was an incitement to riot and an intersection.
I do have my own views but I was not there. Liz Cheney, the third-ranking Republican in the House of Representatives was there. Here is what she says about it:

"On January 6, 2021 a violent mob attacked the United States Capitol to obstruct the process of our democracy and stop the counting of presidential electoral votes. This insurrection caused injury, death and destruction in the most sacred space in our Republic.
Much more will become clear in coming days and weeks, but what we know now is enough. The President of the United States summoned this mob, assembled the mob, and lit the flame of this attack. Everything that followed was his doing. None of this would have happened without the President. The President could have immediately and forcefully intervened to stop the violence. He did not. There has never been a greater betrayal by a President of the United States of his office and his oath to the Constitution.
I will vote to impeach the President."


Kindly note that it would be a big stretch to say Liz Cheney is a member of the left or is influenced by the left. She is a lifelong republican, daughter of a Republican Vice President, elected by Republican voters in a deep-red state. And with those right-wing credentials, she says she will vote to impeach the president.

Her point about what the president did not do is important. At any time, Trump could have stopped the insurrection with a tweet. He could have told people to leave the Capitol. He could have told them to go home. While it is true he eventually did so, he let things develop far too long before he did.

At any point now, Trump could stop the developing attack on the Capitol and state Capitols the FBI warns are being organized now. He could tell his supporters and/or the extremists to stand down, but he is not.
 
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muttly

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ATeam

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The collapse of Trump's support is continuing. The news is now reporting that McConnell and Biden are talking about a Senate schedule that allows for the work of appointing Biden's cabinet and other officials and an impeachment trial to go on simultaneously. Part of the day will be for appointments, part for impeachment.

Before muttly blames this development also on the left, please note that, like Liz Cheney, Mitch McConnell is not a member of "the left" either. He is a bonafide conservative. He has a deep and abiding regard for the Senate as an institution. It seems he is taking great offense at Trump directing an insurrection that literally resulted in McConnell and others fleeing for their lives as the mob closed in. He may also be pissed because Trump's lying about the election cost Republicans the special elections in Georgia, thereby losing Senate control to the Democrats and reducing McConnell to minority leader.

When I woke this morning, zero House Republicans said they are willing to impeach. Tonight four are saying they are. More will likely surface overnight and tomorrow. And it now seems the Senate is gearing up to rapidly conduct the trial.
 
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muttly

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I do have my own views but I was not there. Liz Cheney, the third-ranking Republican in the House of Representatives was there. Here is what she says about it:

"On January 6, 2021 a violent mob attacked the United States Capitol to obstruct the process of our democracy and stop the counting of presidential electoral votes. This insurrection caused injury, death and destruction in the most sacred space in our Republic.
Much more will become clear in coming days and weeks, but what we know now is enough. The President of the United States summoned this mob, assembled the mob, and lit the flame of this attack. Everything that followed was his doing. None of this would have happened without the President. The President could have immediately and forcefully intervened to stop the violence. He did not. There has never been a greater betrayal by a President of the United States of his office and his oath to the Constitution.
I will vote to impeach the President."


Kindly note that it would be a big stretch to say Liz Cheney is a member of the left or is influenced by the left. She is a lifelong republican, daughter of a Republican Vice President, elected by Republican voters in a deep-red state. And with those right-wing credentials, she says she will vote to impeach the president.

Her point about what the president did not do is important. At any time, Trump could have stopped the insurrection with a tweet. He could have told people to leave the Capitol. He could have told them to go home. While it is true he eventually did so, he let things develop far too long before he did.

At any point now, Trump could stop the developing attack on the Capitol and state Capitols the FBI warns are being organized now. He could tell his supporters and/or the extremists to stand down, but he is not.
This gal Cheney never like Trump. Just so you know. I do think there were some preplanned elements involved that were not MAGA, which have been reported and are still be examined. The intersection was happening while he was still giving his speech. And they're claiming, without evidence that his words incited the mob. He specifically said to be peaceful.
Using your logic, anyone who has a rally and then there is violence afterward, the speaker is directly responsible. It's not logical to blame them unless there is specific incitement to do harm. There wasn't anything in his speech that did this. Some are grasping at straws. Again there appears information that at least some of the incidents were premeditated and may have been other individuals involved other than MAGA.
 

ATeam

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Retired Expediter
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It's not logical to blame them unless there is specific incitement to do harm.
Agreed. That's why we have impeachments and trials, and prosecutors and courts. Charges are pressed and trials are conducted to determine where the culpability, if any, lies.

My views align with Cheney's, but mine are only views. Officials will press charges. The Senate and the courts will determine the validity of the charges.
 
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muttly

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The collapse of Trump's support is continuing. The news is now reporting that McConnell and Biden are talking about a Senate schedule that allows for the work of appointing Biden's cabinet and other officials and an impeachment trial to go on simultaneously. Part of the day will be for appointments, part for impeachment.

Before muttly blames this development also on the left, please note that, like Liz Cheney, Mitch McConnell is not a member of "the left" either. He is a bonafide conservative. He has a deep and abiding regard for the Senate as an institution. It seems he is taking great offense at Trump directing an insurrection that literally resulted in McConnell and others fleeing for their lives as the mob closed in. He may also be pissed because Trump's lying about the election cost Republicans the special elections in Georgia, thereby losing Senate control to the Democrats and reducing McConnell to minority leader.

When I woke this morning, zero House Republicans said they are willing to impeach. Tonight four are saying they are. More will likely surface overnight and tomorrow. And it now seems the Senate is gearing up to rapidly conduct the trial.
They aren't on the Left. But one is a never Trumper. That would be Cheney, whose dad and Bush don't like Trump either. Partly because Trump criticised the war that they oversaw. And other things.
Yes, McConnell appears to be vindictive now because of losing the Senate. But should that be the reason to convict an impeachment; merely out of being sore for losing his Senate leadership? Seems kind of something a swamp creature would do.
 

Turtle

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Kindly note that it would be a big stretch to say Liz Cheney is a member of the left or is influenced by the left. She is a lifelong republican, daughter of a Republican Vice President, elected by Republican voters in a deep-red state. And with those right-wing credentials, she says she will vote to impeach the president.
Kindly also note that she's a Founding Member of Anti-Trumpers United.
 

ATeam

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Retired Expediter
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I do think there were some preplanned elements involved that were not MAGA, which have been reported and are still be examined.
That may be but it does not matter as far as it affects Trump. This was and will always be known as the Trump insurrection. His MAGA people were there on full display. They wore Trump colors. They flew Trump flags. They changed Trump chants. They told news reporters on live TV they were there at Trump's direction for Trump's benefit. That's the story that's being told. That's the story that's true.

Other elements present? Probably. But they were vastly outnumbered and rendered essentially invisible by the overwhelming numbers, actions and colors of the MAGA mob.
 
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ATeam

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Kindly also note that she's a Founding Member of Anti-Trumpers United.
Why is that important for you to mention? What difference does this make? LIz Cheney and other Republicans who plan to vote for Trump's impeachment today (or soon) did not vote to impeach him before. If she is "a Founding Member of Anti-Trumpers United." What changed? Why did she vote against impeachment before but is voting for impeachment now?
 
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ATeam

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You do realize the Left have refused to admit that they lost and Trump won for the past 4 years.
It may be helpful if you tell us who you mean by "the Left." Who exactly are refusing to admit they lost the election to Trump in 2016?

When Trump was first elected, a good number of people took to the streets to protest. Some of those wore shirts and carried signs saying "Not my president." Also visible were the "never-Trumpers" on the Republican side. Both these groups were fiercely critical of everything Trump did or, in their eyes, failed to do. Then there were the House and Senate Democrats who voted to impeach Trump (the first time). They too were fiercely critical of Trump; so much so the took extraordinary action to impeach.

But in none of these cases did they challenge the election itself. They noted - correctly - that Hillary Clinton won the popular vote but acknowledged Trump won the Electoral College vote. They did not say the election was stolen from them. They did not say the election results were a lie. You may be able to find a few exceptions to this but those would be rare. There was no organized stop the steal movement.

Yes, Hillary said "illegitimate" in the article you posted above. But nothing came of it. Her supporters did not continually take to the streets to protest the legitimacy of the election. They took to the streets to protest Trump. That same article shows that. Most of what Hillary was quoted as saying was not about the election, it was about shortcomings she said Trump demonstrated in office after he was elected.

And about questioning the legitimacy of a properly elected president, what about the continual barrage of tweets and groundless accusations by Trump about Obama's citizenship? Trump was playing the delegitimize-the-president game long before he became a candidate himself. Now he is lying about the legitimacy of Biden's election results.

Out of respect for the tradition, former First Lady Hillary attended Trump's inauguration, thereby acknowledging the legitimacy of his election. Off that stage, she offered several reasons, including voter suppression, for her defeat. A far greater number of people on "the Left" offered that Hillary lost because she was a flawed candidate who made several strategic blunders.
 
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ATeam

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You do realize the Left have refused to admit that they lost and Trump won for the past 4 years.
It may be helpful if you tell us who you mean by "the Left." Who exactly are refusing to admit they lost the election to Trump in 2016?

When Trump was first elected, a good number of people took to the streets to protest. Some of those wore shirts and carried signs saying "Not my president." Also visible were the "never-Trumpers" on the Republican side. Both these groups were fiercely critical of everything Trump did or, in their eyes, failed to do. Then there were the House and Senate Democrats who voted to impeach Trump (the first time). They too were fiercely critical of Trump; so much so the took extraordinary action to impeach.

But in none of these cases did they challenge the election itself. They noted - correctly - that Hillary Clinton won the popular vote but acknowledged Trump won the Electoral College vote. They did not say the election was stolen from them. They did not say the election results were a lie. You may be able to find a few exceptions to this but those would be rare. There was no organized stop the steal movement.

Yes, Hillary said "illegitimate" in the article you posted above. But nothing came of it. Her supporters did not continually take to the streets to protest the legitimacy of the election. They took to the streets to protest Trump. That same article shows that. Most of what Hillary was quoted as saying was not about the election, it was about shortcomings she said Trump demonstrated in office after he was elected.

And about questioning the legitimacy of a properly elected president, what about the continual barrage of tweets and groundless accusations by Trump about Obama's citizenship? Trump was playing the delegitimize-the-president game long before he became a candidate himself. Now he is lying about the legitimacy of Biden's election results.

Out of respect for the tradition, former First Lady Hillary attended Trump's inauguration, thereby acknowledging the legitimacy of his election. Off that stage, she offered several reasons, including voter suppression, for her defeat. A far greater number of people on "the Left" offered that Hillary lost because she was a poor candidate who made several strategic blunders.

By attending the Trump inauguration, Hillary supported the peaceful transfer of power from one administration to the next. Trump is not doing that. He is not going to attend the Biden inauguration. He tried to thwart the transfer of power by unleashing a mob on Congress as they were counting the Electoral College votes. And he continues his attack by encouraging those who are willing to use violence to achieve their ends. Washington DC is now fortified against such people; people Trump refuses to call off, and people he continues to encourage by promoting his big lie about a stolen election.

Trump is being impeached for that. He may be convicted in the Senate for it. He will likely be criminally charged and prosecuted for it after his presidency ends on Jan. 20.
 

Turtle

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Why is that important for you to mention? What difference does this make?
It was important to post because you felt it necessary to give us a full paragraph on just how Republican Cheney is, as a way to convince readers that she is not influenced by the left, as if to imply that even a staunch Republican like Liz Cheney wants Trump gone. Yet, she routinely uses the same talking points and narrative of the left when criticizing Trump, and her comments on recent events are no exception.
LIz Cheney and other Republicans who plan to vote for Trump's impeachment today (or soon) did not vote to impeach him before. If she is "a Founding Member of Anti-Trumpers United." What changed? Why did she vote against impeachment before but is voting for impeachment now?
This impeachment is very different than the first one. Not only did Cheney and other Republicans not vote to impeach in the first one, neither did some Democrats. There are lots of reasons for the changes in voting positions, but one easy-to-digest reason is any Republican who voted to impeach in the first impeachment would have not a chance at reelection in November. That's not the case now, so they have the cover of time on their side.

Also, the narrative of "The President of the United States summoned this mob, assembled the mob, and lit the flame of this attack. Everything that followed was his doing. ... The President could have immediately and forcefully intervened to stop the violence. He did not." is not only tailor made for (and in part created by) the MSM, took hold quickly as being stone-cold true, the same as the "fact" that Trump colluded with Russia did. If this impeachment vote takes place quickly, without hearing or the President having an opportunity to defend himself, that narrative will rule the day and give massive cover to any Republican who votes to impeach, especially to those already known for being an anti Trumper.

I just heard Rep Steny Hoyer say on the House Floor that there was no voter fraud whatsoever in the November election, that it was n absolutely accurate vote count. So that's funny. But that's the narrative, and you'd best go along with it.
 
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muttly

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It may be helpful if you tell us who you mean by "the Left." Who exactly are refusing to admit they lost the election to Trump in 2016?

When Trump was first elected, a good number of people took to the streets to protest. Some of those wore shirts and carried signs saying "Not my president." Also visible were the "never-Trumpers" on the Republican side. Both these groups were fiercely critical of everything Trump did or, in their eyes, failed to do. Then there were the House and Senate Democrats who voted to impeach Trump (the first time). They too were fiercely critical of Trump; so much so the took extraordinary action to impeach.

But in none of these cases did they challenge the election itself. They noted - correctly - that Hillary Clinton won the popular vote but acknowledged Trump won the Electoral College vote. They did not say the election was stolen from them. They did not say the election results were a lie. You may be able to find a few exceptions to this but those would be rare. There was no organized stop the steal movement.

Yes, Hillary said "illegitimate" in the article you posted above. But nothing came of it. Her supporters did not continually take to the streets to protest the legitimacy of the election. They took to the streets to protest Trump. That same article shows that. Most of what Hillary was quoted as saying was not about the election, it was about shortcomings she said Trump demonstrated in office after he was elected.

And about questioning the legitimacy of a properly elected president, what about the continual barrage of tweets and groundless accusations by Trump about Obama's citizenship? Trump was playing the delegitimize-the-president game long before he became a candidate himself. Now he is lying about the legitimacy of Biden's election results.

Out of respect for the tradition, former First Lady Hillary attended Trump's inauguration, thereby acknowledging the legitimacy of his election. Off that stage, she offered several reasons, including voter suppression, for her defeat. A far greater number of people on "the Left" offered that Hillary lost because she was a poor candidate who made several strategic blunders.

By attending the Trump inauguration, Hillary supported the peaceful transfer of power from one administration to the next. Trump is not doing that. He is not going to attend the Biden inauguration. He tried to thwart the transfer of power by unleashing a mob on Congress as they were counting the Electoral College votes. And he continues his attack by encouraging those who are willing to use violence to achieve their ends. Washington DC is now fortified against such people; people Trump refuses to call off, and people he continues to encourage by promoting his big lie about a stolen election.

Trump is being impeached for that. He may be convicted in the Senate for it. He will likely be criminally charged and prosecuted for it after his presidency ends on Jan. 20.
One reason he isn't going is because they don't want him there anyway. He challenged the election in court, which was his right to do. He also has conceded. The Left are mostly progressives, yet have very little to do with progress. They undermined his Presidency every step of the way. If you can't see that, I can't help you.
 
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ATeam

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It was important to post because you felt it necessary to give us a full paragraph on just how Republican Cheney is, as a way to convince readers that she is not influenced by the left, as if to imply that even a staunch Republican like Liz Cheney wants Trump gone. Yet, she routinely uses the same talking points and narrative of the left when criticizing Trump, and her comments on recent events are no exception.
OK. Fair points. But it is also fair, is it not, to acknowledge that a bonafide conservative like Liz Cheney is willing to impeach Trump for the high crimes he is said to have committed? It's not all about left or right, or pro-Trump or anti-Trump. It's about the law and constitution too.
 
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