"The Book", Now a Best Seller!!

[MrGautama]

Chavez's gesture turns book into bestseller


PORT OF SPAIN, Trinidad (CNN) -- The big winner out of this week's Summit of the Americas in Trinidad may be a decades-old book about the exploitation of Latin American people throughout history.

Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez, whose anti-U.S. rhetoric has included calling former President George W. Bush the devil, approached Obama Friday and handed him a copy of "Open Veins of Latin America: Five Centuries of the Pillage of a Continent."

In just hours, the book, by Uruguayan writer Eduardo Galeano, rocketed to bestseller status on online book store Amazon.com.

The English version was at No. 11 on the site's list of top sellers Saturday night. On Friday, it had been No. 60,280.

The book topped Amazon's "Movers and Shakers" list on Saturday -- with a reported 466,378-percent increase in popularity on the site.



Oh Hugo... what an old fox you are!!!, Thank you from the bottom of my heart.

 

[aristotle]

There's a dominant culture on every continent. You would replace ours with what exactly? Chavez's sabre rattling may net him the same fate as Noriega or, even better, Saddam Hussein's. ( Of course, Hugo's safe as long as a Democrat's in office).

 

[MrGautama]

There's a dominant culture on every continent. You would replace ours with what exactly?

That's simple: Libertarian socialism and Participatory economics.

Chavez's sabre rattling may net him the same fate as Noriega or, even better, Saddam Hussein's. ( Of course, Hugo's safe as long as a Democrat's in office).

The big difference... Chavez never worked for us like the other two. Anyway, lets keep up the intervention in other countries. Like that is going to make us safer!!

 

[aristotle]

Mr G..... it would have been fascinating to have known you during your formative years. The trauma still lingers.

 

[MrGautama]

Mr G..... it would have been fascinating to have known you during your formative years. The trauma still lingers.

Oh no... you got me... how can you be so cruel and exploit my deep rooted fears and inadequacies for your amusement?, don't you have a heart mister!!!

 

[chefdennis]

And the new york times best selling book for the last 4 weeks, " Liberty and Tyranny" By Mark Levin........

 

[greg334]

I am an eye witness to the toppling of a democratic government and the implementation of a right wing repressive military dictatorship, the suspension of all civil rights, the state death squads traveling the country summarily executing dissidents (politically active citizens that believed in the democratic process). Soccer stadiums used to concentrate the soon to be members of the disappeared lists, the free press braking under repression and becoming just a tool for official indoctrination, the heartbreaking sight of all those mothers, wifes and daughters of the vanished marching in the streets with pictures of their loved ones; can you imagine the desolation in their hearts?; can you walk just for a minute in their shoes?

Oh Hugo... what an old fox you are!!!, Thank you from the bottom of my heart.

Mr. Buddha,
I am curious; maybe I am mistaken about repressive regimes (a.k.a. dictatorships) but are they not all the same?

I mean Hugo baby there is the toast of the idiots of Hollywood and actually he is a lot like Pinochet and Juan Perón in both substance and repression, so please explain the difference between repressive regimes on the right and the left in South America?

As far as the book is concern, it is like the right wing history of the world – propaganda.

 

[MrGautama]

Mr. Buddha,
I am curious; maybe I am mistaken about repressive regimes (a.k.a. dictatorships) but are they not all the same?

No, they vary substantially in their brutality.

I mean Hugo baby there is the toast of the idiots of Hollywood and actually he is a lot like Pinochet and Juan Perón in both substance and repression, so please explain the difference between repressive regimes on the right and the left in South America?

That must be the biggest delusion I've read in a long time, I conceptually understand how the propaganda model has cooked your brain but when faced directly with the results it can't be nothing less than shocking.

You are a lucky man to have the privilege to find comfort in your own ignorance and construct an opinion in matters you know nothing about. Oh... the wonders of living in a fishbowl.


-Democracy isn't the same as Capitalism.


-Socialism isn't the same as Authoritarism.


-Perón, besides being an idiot, was a democratically elected president.


-Pinochet took power in a bloody coup d'état and left an historic legacy of atrocities. He was a dictator.


-Chavez is also a democratically elected president. He is currently implementing a Bolivarian Revolution, it is a progressive, re-distributive, and participatory democracy.

During his government Venezuelans have voted 15 times, 14 of which the people have favored Chavez' position. His legitimacy isn't matched by any other Latin American president currently in office.
The United States called the process “consistent with democratic principles”. The Rio Group (consisting of 33 nations of the continent) said it was “another expression of civil spirit of the Venezuelans”. I may or may not like what Chavez is doing but that's besides the point, on the other hand comparing him to Pinochet is akin to a comparison between Castro and Stalin!. so I wonder...

What in earth are you talking about?

As far as the book is concern, it is like the right wing history of the world – propaganda.

Of course; it has to be. If there was just the slightest chance that it was an accurate depiction of history all your system of beliefs would collapse as if built on sand. At this stage of the game you have to maintain the illusion at all cost because it's unthinkable to accept that all the effort invested in your reasoning was just a waste of time.

 

[greg334]

WARNING really long post

No, they vary substantially in their brutality.

But a dictator is a dictator, right?

And a repressive regime is a repressive regime, right?

If you have no right to speak or no right to basic liberties, what is that?

Is it really freedom or repression?

That must be the biggest delusion I've read in a long time, I conceptually understand how the propaganda model has cooked your brain but when faced directly with the results it can't be nothing less than shocking.

That’s an interesting comment.

OK what propaganda? What Delusion?

The questioning from European news outlets (my sources about SA) of a formation of a dictatorship before our eyes, or is it the Hollywood crowd embracing a hateful dictator?

It is however a good deflection with some emotion thrown in.

You are a lucky man to have the privilege to find comfort in your own ignorance and construct an opinion in matters you know nothing about. Oh... the wonders of living in a fishbowl.

Mr. Buddha, you seem to miss something, I never lived in a fishbowl. I didn’t have sanctioned living abroad like you and others but I was in many places like you that were horrible. It is not ignorance that drives my passion to see people free and able to live according to their own will but experience seeing what happens first hand along the same lines like you had. I have seen what the UN can't or won't do and I have seen poverty that no one living here has had in more than 80 years.

The interesting thing is that I feel you are typical of many who just don’t’ get the freedom thing, you oppose it because you may not understand it or you think leads to abuses of others in your mind. Like comparing capitalism to the problems caused by greed and power, you miss the point that it is not capitalism, an economic model that is the cause of human suffering but it is other people that want to control others who caused it. It has happened worse under socialism (USSR) and Fascism (Germany, Italy) and even under true Democracy but it hasn’t under our system here in this country – has it?

-Democracy isn't the same as Capitalism.

-Socialism isn't the same as Authoritarism.

-Perón, besides being an idiot, was a democratically elected president.

-Pinochet took power in a bloody coup d'état and left an historic legacy of atrocities. He was a dictator.

-Chavez is also a democratically elected president. He is currently implementing a Bolivarian Revolution, it is a progressive, re-distributive, and participatory democracy.

It is true, Democracy isn't the same as Capitalism.

But it is not true that Socialism isn't the same as Authoritarianism. In order for you to have socialism, you have to have control of the people (Marx, Engel, Rosenberg all seemed to argue for the control under socialist conditions) - in other words there has to be an authority with vast powers to control people and their behaviors in order to provide an equal footing for all to live under. Under socialism, like the USSR (which was not really communist by Marx and Lenin’s definitions based on Khrushchev’s and the politburo statements), everything worked under state control and it was thr state you bowed down to or did you miss what the USSR was doing?

AND it is possible for democracies to be authoritarian in its nature and purpose, seeing that the basis for democracy is mob rule. For those who would like to see this, one example is [FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Luxemburgism. [/FONT]

The real problem is that Democracies don’t really work, sure it is part of the mantra of many of the ‘progressive movement’ but it is not understood by many that it is essentially mob rule with the other side of it is where you were siting abuses which are part of the cover up to a power grabs – “the people wanted the constitution to be out of the way so we can have a utopia”

But you failed to mention that Chavez had the international communities help in his winning (BBC), and our president Carter approved his methods of election every time (UN). It does not matter what revolution he is employing, the fact that there is a limitation of rights (UN) including freedom of speech (UN), the removal of term limits and nationalization of industries (Reuters) which all points to formation of a true dictatorship along the lines of what they experienced in Iraq. Saddam had something like a 95% approval rating and won every election but the people didn’t exactly live in a democracy.

I also have to add that it seems you left out the issue of free elections without the brutality and suppression the opposition with instilling fear to force the people to vote one way, something that has to be included with every ‘democratically’ elected official in most of the South American countries.

During his government Venezuelans have voted 15 times, 14 of which the people have favored Chavez' position. His legitimacy isn't matched by any other Latin American president currently in office.

When you control the press, have the UN and international organizations helping you get elected and stay elected, then of course you can claim 14 out of 15 people prefer Chavez’ position. The people don’t understand the impact of the things that are happening, they are uneducated masses for the most part and when you have near nothing (true poverty) and all of a sudden there is a new homes and cheap gasoline, you will favor the guy who has given you this – just like here…. Again this is the trap of the 'democracy' or don't you get that?

The United States called the process “consistent with democratic principles”. The Rio Group (consisting of 33 nations of the continent) said it was “another expression of civil spirit of the Venezuelans”. I may or may not like what Chavez is doing but that's besides the point, on the other hand comparing him to Pinochet is akin to a comparison between Castro and Stalin!. so I wonder...

Dictators are dictators; I have a lot of other reasons to compare him to his heroes. He claims Castro and others are his heroes, so I didn’t hear people like Washington (meaning people of integrity and ethics) on his list, did you?

Of course; it has to be. If there was just the slightest chance that it was an accurate depiction of history all your system of beliefs would collapse as if built on sand. At this stage of the game you have to maintain the illusion at all cost because it's unthinkable to accept that all the effort invested in your reasoning was just a waste of time.

What illusion?

I am not being fed a bunch of cr*p history about a third world nation or blaming the colonization of South America on country that also resulted in the same colonization, am I?

My point is that the book is opinion like most other history books in the modern world. I have a book here about slavery, it is about the institution of slavery and details how things worked in different parts of the country, the lives, processes and so on. You know it is opposite of all the other books on slavery’s history, it is a book that is called propaganda by the NAACP and other organizations because it goes against the commonly held beliefs that have been created in the last 50 years. It took 35 years to research between two universities (one here and one in Europe), another 10 years to write and it is published by one of the oldest universities in the country but it is propaganda.

Did you read the book that you are so happy to claim is a best seller?

I didn't find it on the Amazon list by the way but I did find Mark Levine's book on there, maybe you should get that and read it.

If you have read Chavez's book, great, then you are fooled by the hate rhetoric too but if you haven’t I suggest you do.

The really sad thing here Buddha is that you seem to be an emotional person about the past, maybe there is guilt there for what you have done, I don't know and sorry to say don't care. The thing I see is that you are like many others who think that repression is the way to go if it is done right - which Obama and Chavez are like others who want the control at all costs.

It may be me with my experiences but it seems that when people get a chance to live and grow in a good society, not one with hatred and putting the blame on everyone else for their problems, then these people know what freedom is like.

South America is not my area of experience, Africa is and you may know what it is like there.

 

[MrGautama]

Re: WARNING really long post

But a dictator is a dictator, right?
And a repressive regime is a repressive regime, right?
If you have no right to speak or no right to basic liberties, what is that?
Is it really freedom or repression?

Isn't that self evident?; you may be tempted to believe that I would say something so aberrant as to differentiate in character between one kind of authoritarian regime from another. No such luck today, but neither have I been conditioned to ignore reality and accept the doctrine that somehow it's OK to incite, finance, implement, provide logistics, and manage murderous regimes with my tax dollars. I know now that it was a complete waste of time to tell you about what I experienced; after reading about all the suffering I witnessed your comeback was: “but the left wing dictatorships are bad too!, and Chavez is just like Pinochet” instead of reflecting on the deeper issues. Anyway, that's what's expected from you and you have been a good Ovis Aries.

That’s an interesting comment.

OK what propaganda? What Delusion?

“A delusion is commonly defined as a fixed false belief and is used in everyday language to describe a belief that is either false, fanciful or derived from deception”. In this case the the dogmatic act of equating completely different regimes just for the doctrinal convenience of it and with complete disregard to the inconvenience of evidence.

You ask me What Propaganda?, I can help it but just smile. The whole aplicational purpose of a good propaganda model is that the subjects remain unaware of it, as it happens to be in your case.
It's not my role to educate you that is only your responsibility and if you decide to remain immerse in the general delusion there is nothing I can do about it

I'm going to go a bit further even though my experiences have no visible effect on you. The saddest part of all what I narrated to you is that I believed the official story, I was young and gullible and drank the full jar of kool-aid; I was convinced that the military government had saved us from the claws of the Soviet Empire, that all the dissidents were all communists bent on taking my house and everything I owned, that summary executions and torture were just a fabrication; after all the people in the stadiums had been only interrogated as the good savior the general used to say. In short, I had been indoctrinated using a very powerful propaganda model, one very different that the one used here in the US. That difference made it easier to see through it, I mean the experience on the street was very different from what the TV showed and in the course of a few years helped me question the validity of the official story. By the time I became fully aware of the magnitude of the disaster I realized that I was an accomplice in it's implementation, that my complacency and untimely reaction had been the precise thing the government had been counting on to carry on their objectives.

As I said, you are a lucky man because there is a good chance you will never come to the realization of your own complicity in the crimes that our representatives carry on, an so you will never have to carry the guilt and shame that comes with being aware of your own bloody hands.

Mr. Buddha, you seem to miss something, I never lived in a fishbowl. I didn’t have sanctioned living abroad like you and others but I was in many places like you that were horrible. It is not ignorance that drives my passion to see people free and able to live according to their own will but experience seeing what happens first hand along the same lines like you had. I have seen what the UN can't or won't do and I have seen poverty that no one living here has had in more than 80 years.

The interesting thing is that I feel you are typical of many who just don’t’ get the freedom thing, you oppose it because you may not understand it or you think leads to abuses of others in your mind. Like comparing capitalism to the problems caused by greed and power, you miss the point that it is not capitalism, an economic model that is the cause of human suffering but it is other people that want to control others who caused it. It has happened worse under socialism (USSR) and Fascism (Germany, Italy) and even under true Democracy but it hasn’t under our system here in this country – has it?

I guess is time to clear some things up.

I am not an UN and Europe worshiper: The UN is an undemocratic institution heavily dominated by the interests of the powerful nations, but I try to get the most out of it being the only global regulating body, and believe it or not some people there still try to do their job despite the obstacles.
Europe is as a whole a very destructive entity, it behaves in many was as we do but being such an old culture some of it's countries have had the opportunity to learn from the past and have rejected in general a lot of things we haven't had the chance or willingness to learn; like the futility of imperialism, the consequences of ultra-nationalism, the social cost of militarism,etc.

I rather live in a Capitalist society than in a Marxist one: Marx is just another philosopher and like with the rest of them he has valid points and others rather lame. For me Marxism as we know it simply replaces the dominant class (the capitalist) with another dominant class (the managers or coordinators) that appoint themselves to oversee the interests of the common folk because they know what's best for the people better than the people themselves, fairly dumb right? and pretty much against everything I believe in. In it's craziest forms it destroys democracy further alienating the population that has no representation. What comes next is pretty obvious and examples of failed Marxist governments abound.

Now to Capitalism, Because at it's core is a for profit system it is inherently flawed, it's an insatiable beast that doesn't have a goal to achieve and always wants more, in other words the job in never done. It is always pushing for eternal growth in a finite planet, what is the number?... I don't remember exactly but it is something like: if all the inhabitants of the world consumed the way we here in the US do we would need the resources of 5 planets!; something like that but you get the idea. There is a fascinating analogy by David Suzuki using microbes that illustrates the concept very clearly.
The other disadvantage is the way it affects peoples lives, in a not-for-profit system we would have to work about half of what we do now to achieve the same level of comfort, freeing more time to experience our lives in a more fulfilling way.
The insatiable nature of Capitalism leads us as a species to brutal competition and dominance that's only detrimental for our wellbeing.

It is true, Democracy isn't the same as Capitalism.
But it is not true that Socialism isn't the same as Authoritarianism.

By that reasoning, what else could Democracy be if socialism equals Authoritarianism?; What other economic system could exist in Democracy?

It is true, Democracy isn't the same as Capitalism

But it is not true that Socialism isn't the same as Authoritarianism. In order for you to have socialism, you have to have control of the people (Marx, Engel, Rosenberg all seemed to argue for the control under socialist conditions) - in other words there has to be an authority with vast powers to control people and their behaviors in order to provide an equal footing for all to live under. Under socialism, like the USSR (which was not really communist by Marx and Lenin’s definitions based on Khrushchev’s and the politburo statements), everything worked under state control and it was thr state you bowed down to or did you miss what the USSR was doing?

I should have added to my previous post: -Socialism is not the same as Marxism, It has a much broader scope; but I understand why you believe that.

The real problem is that Democracies don’t really work, sure it is part of the mantra of many of the ‘progressive movement’ but it is not understood by many that it is essentially mob rule with the other side of it is where you were siting abuses which are part of the cover up to a power grabs – “the people wanted the constitution to be out of the way so we can have a utopia”

Of course modern Democracies don't work as they should to different degrees. A democracy can't function properly if the voters don't have access to useful and realistic information, and that happens because the media and information outlets are owned by the elite and only let out information biased towards their interests. All that “liberal bias” by the media is just BS, but I'm sure you'll disagree.

“the people wanted the constitution to be out of the way so we can have a utopia”

Who, what people?

But you failed to mention that Chavez had the international communities help in his winning (BBC)

What international communities?

and our president Carter approved his methods of election every time (UN)

Same as the Government of The United States (“consistent with democratic principles”), and The Rio Group with its 33 member states (“another expression of civil spirit of the Venezuelans”)

It does not matter what revolution he is employing, the fact that there is a limitation of rights (UN)

So our Democracy should be dismissed as well because the rights lost during Junior's term?

including freedom of speech (UN)

You are talking about Radio Caracas Televisión, it's a shame but let's look a bit deeper into the matter with an hypothetical case.

Imagine tomorrow, and please don't start salivating, a group of Marines storm the White House and take Obama prisoner; Fox Noise begins simultaneous transmissions of the coup and calling for people to march toward the White House giving directions of the best routes to take and telling that that Obama has resigned; shortly begins transmission of a speech by the new dictator and calling him the legitimate new president. The collaboration is documented by accident when it's captured on film the moment in which the conspirators and the directives of Fox Noise are congratulating each other for a successful partnership.

Now, the people of DC raises and instead of celebrating the “new president” starting a massive insurrection that gives confidence to other sectors of the armed forces to react and do so by rescuing Obama from the conspirators and returning him to power.


Now in your opinion, what should happen to Fox?

the removal of term limits

Subjected to referendum, approved by the voters.

and nationalization of industries (Reuters)

This is an important one and one of the two that are in grand part responsible for the atrocities committed in Latin America by our government.

Venezuela, one of the richest countries in the region has staggering rates of poverty. Why?, Their resources have been plundered by American and European oil corporations with the active involvement of the Venezuelan elite that has channeled most of the revenue from oil to them and then abroad. I guess all of that good in your eyes.
Nationalization in this case means to bring back the control of a country over it's own resources instead of letting foreign leaches drain their riches for a bag of peanuts.

So to make it easier for you to understand, just change the the participants in this struggle and put the good ol' US of A as the country with the resources and China as the leaching party... oh boy how would you be screaming to the winds for nationalization!

which all points to formation of a true dictatorship along the lines of what they experienced in Iraq. Saddam had something like a 95% approval rating and won every election but the people didn’t exactly live in a democracy.

Here we go again... tell me when any of Saddam's elections was recognized by The US or The UN as an act “consistent with democratic principles”. Greg, the world is made of shades of gray!!

I also have to add that it seems you left out the issue of free elections without the brutality and suppression the opposition with instilling fear to force the people to vote one way, something that has to be included with every ‘democratically’ elected official in most of the South American countries.

You now that for a fact?, and the study that concluded your asseveration I can find it where?

When you control the press, have the UN and international organizations helping you get elected and stay elected, then of course you can claim 14 out of 15 people prefer Chavez’ position. The people don’t understand the impact of the things that are happening, they are uneducated masses for the most part and when you have near nothing (true poverty) and all of a sudden there is a new homes and cheap gasoline, you will favor the guy who has given you this – just like here…. Again this is the trap of the 'democracy' or don't you get that?

Where have I heard that before...?

all of a sudden there is a new homes and cheap gasoline, you will favor the guy who has given you this – just like here…. Again this is the trap of the 'democracy' or don't you get that?

Of course I get it but Democracy is the best we have at this point in time (and I really hope you agree!!), As you said, when you control the press you control the minds... just like here in the US.

Dictators are dictators; I have a lot of other reasons to compare him to his heroes. He claims Castro and others are his heroes, so I didn’t hear people like Washington (meaning people of integrity and ethics) on his list, did you?

Sure, his biggest hero is Simon Bolivar, Noam Chomsky, Eduardo Galeano, can't find more integrity in any other group... or maybe a bunch of Buddhist monks.

What illusion?

I thought I had been very clear, but let's use a more appropriate word:

For you Galeano's book has to be a bunch of crap because...

If there was just the slightest chance that it was an accurate depiction of history all your system of beliefs would collapse as if built on sand. At this stage of the game you have to maintain the delusion at all cost because it's unthinkable to accept that all the effort invested in your reasoning was just a waste of time.


Well, I had enough of this thing, to answer shortly yes I have read the book twice (in Spanish and in English), I know it just came in to your radar but in more educated circles is a classic of the universal literature.

Certainly South America is not your area of expertise so I suggest to reserve your opinion in the subject around educated people to avoid making a fool of yourself.

Finally, if you as usual dismiss everything else I've said and take one thing with you is grab a copy of “Manufacturing Consent” (just the video, the book is too long) is a simple and easy way to understand how you have been used and begin the road to recovery.

 

[greg334]

Mr. Buddha,
See I understand where you are coming from and I do agree with some of what you are saying but there is something that you are missing, it is the fact that I am not what you seem to be saying I am; a quadrupedal, ruminant mammal that gives wool.

I wasn't young or gullible, I didn't drink the koolaide or convinced that the military machine was protecting us as an unconditional follower of all of it. I was and still am quite opposed to a lot of it and understand that questioning it is not enough to change it, it has to be done by the people and until the people wake up, it won't happen.

By the way, I hope we are not a democracy.

Oh before I forget, some of what I wrote in the last post was sarcasm, I thought you would get it but....

 

[MrGautama]

no, I didn't get it