International Day of Rage

moose

Veteran Expediter
Breaking news - hot off the presses !

This just in:



Rest of the article:

Israeli cabinet likely to scrap controversial Bedouin relocation plan - National Israel News | Haaretz

So much for the idea that the "agreement" of "most parties" in any way included those that it affected the most ...

(BTW - the rest of the article is fairly dam*ing as to what was actually going on)
be careful what you wish for:The BIG losers from a scrap of such plan, are the Bedouin's themselves.
like i stated here before, the current living conditions cannot last for long.
the next plan will not be as good.
when this o'l thing came about, i did raised an eyebrow, asking myself how on earth did they manage to talk to ALL of the different group involved.
I totally agree that negotiations needs to be with all party's involved, but, as knowing the diversity within the Bedouin's community so very well - this is a BIG undertaking. the Bedouin's are NOT one alike- they are very diversify.
sooner or later a compromised will be achieved, i just do not think it will be as promising for the Bedouin's.
more to come.
{BTW i did not read in any other source that this plan will be abounded...yet, but then i was off the Internet for some time now...}
 

moose

Veteran Expediter
(rlent note: The PA is a non-military, civil institution - which was only supposed to last for 5 years while Oslo was implemented and peace concluded. But the Israeli's have managed to avoid a conclusion - in order to prevent a Palestinian State - so that they can continue their conquest of dispossession and ethnic cleansing.)An absolute distortion of the truth, and a rewriting of History. Israel was committed to negotiations. however it was indeed the Palestinas that used the Oslo Agreement to launch an unprecedented terror attacks into Israel. Indeed, in the 5 years after the Oslo accords 'Only' 256 Jews have been killed in Israel, but it was the broken promise by the PA to control terrorism and their inability to cooperate with the, then, cooperated security with Israel. they could've had it!
rlent comment: Negotiations in bad faith are no real negotiations at all ... they are only a pretext to continue something (the appearance of a "peace process") for some particular purpose (prevention of a Palestinian State and continued dispossession and ethnic cleansing of the indigenous people of the land)
Sorry to disappoint you, but you wont find many politicains that negotiate in good faith.
do i really need to post a link to the Palestinians 11 steps negotiation program?{talking about good faith LoL}
or to the ongoing Antisemitiszem in the PA media?.
maybe to the never ending praising of Terrorism?
the fact that every successful terrorist always & still getting PAIED salary.
to start off a long list.
o'h & never forget that the above conversation was NOT a promise or a policy, it was a man comforting a mom that just lost her sun to a horrific terror attack.
 

moose

Veteran Expediter
Ragman you are absolutely correct, there are other party's that are responsible.
Israel windrow from the Strip in 2005,
in 2007 Hama'ss terror group won the elections and took control of the place.
that's 8 years ago, yet none ever blame the Gazan themselves for choosing violent over quality of life.
poverty in the refugees camps came be over with tomorrow, if the residents of Gaza choose too.{not to mention the bugging question of howcome they still have refugee camps to begin with, just another bad choice.}
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
Ironically this one Campus is notably home for some of the larges Muslim student group in N/A.
What is really ironic is that you what you really seeking to do is divert the attention off of Israel's illegal, unjust, and inhumane actions ...

But even more ironic than that perhaps is that you are seeking to conflate the actions of this organization with Islam ...

Oooooh ... those scary Mooslims ...

Tell me: what are we talking here terms of numbers of students ... 100 ... 200 ... what ?

The reality is that these "demolition" protests have occurred at a number of institutions in the US ... and are supported by a diverse community (including Jews) as evidenced by the following video of a protest (principled, non-violent, and I would even say respectful) by the organization of a pair of IDF soldiers who were dispatched to University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, to conduct hasbara (propaganda) on behalf of Israel:


What is particularly amusing is the reception they got and their reaction to it ... as well as the IDF soldier's pleas for people to stay and ask questions - so he could continue his sales job - when nearly everyone in the room got up and walked out, essentially emptying the room ...

If one want to further confirm the diversity involved, all one would need to do is to the organization's Media Gallery page and have a look at the faces present at the organizations Palestine Freedom March:

Events | Students Allied for Freedom and Equality

good Thing Muslims in America have Israel to Hate, once Israel is gone- guess whose next?
Your attempt at selling Israeli paranoia here in the US is largely dependent on the ignorance of the audience you are attempting to address - ignorance both of the Muslims among us - and the ignorance of the full details of Israel's own conduct - something that is very rarely covered in the US MSM.

We're working on fixing that though. Truth will out.

While we are on the subject of irony, what is particularly ironic is this:

The thing you would demand for yourself and your "state" is the very thing that you would deny to the "other" (by reason of your very obvious religious bigotry)

That makes you guilty of hypocrisy on a fairly grand scale.

Please tell me: What mitzvah is that ?

In any event:

Love the sinner, hate the sin ...

We'll continue to love you Israelis - and will probably accept you back into the community of nations - even after what you have done to the Palestinians ...

Israel will not however escape justice for it's conduct - it is coming.

I'm not particularly sure what this link was supposed to be about ... since it really doesn't seem to support anything you have asserted above.

Finally, you and your countrymen would do very well to remember the words at the end of the video above:

"Truth is on the side of the oppressed."
 
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moose

Veteran Expediter
Complete BS ... Obviously you have no idea what you are talking about

How many Americans do you think are aware of the fact that if you're Jewish in Israel and certain areas of Occupied Territories, it's a breeze to get permits to build ... and if you're anything other than Jewish it's next to impossible to get permits ...Just another spin of reality by you. when it comes to Israel's heartlands, expanding a building is almost impossible, that is unless you live in one of the many Arab villages in Israel where building codes {and taxes} hardly enforced. your use of the word 'Breeze' is a pure lie.
when it comes to Yehodah & Shomron, the Gov. holds back from allowing thousands of new apartments, and for many years now only allow expansions
places. residents of those areas routinely suffer from 'under investment', much less then the general population.
Actually 'some' of the problem the Bedouin's have, is that, unlike most other citizens, they build whenever, wherever & move as they wish. Israeli's go through hell and back- just to add a room for a kid, and then they see other citizens which the law do not apply to.

How many Americans do you think are aware of the fact the Israel exercises both military and administrative control in Area C - which comprises over 60% of the West Bank - effectively denying the Palestinian people the right to both their self defense and self governance:How many Americans know that this is Exactly what the Palestinians agreed to?, and that 97% of the None Jewish Populations in Yehodah & Shomron are self governed?
How many American know that the one BIG obstacle for peace is that Palestinians antisemitism, and their{and apparently yours} inability to allow Jewish present in their homeland?

201306_area_c_poster_eng.jpg



Palestinian PM vows to prevent Israeli demolition orders


Aggressive people ?

Are you serious ?
What else would you call a person that one night show up on a hill , build a shack, and then raise hell when he is ordered to leave?
when Jews do so, they are almost always received the same treatment.

As a citizen of a nation which has probably conducted more unprovoked acts of war against other sovereign nations than any other in living memory, you trying to sell that one is a real hoot buddy.
"unprovoked acts of war"???
all, but all of Israel's wars where ALWAYS defense wars.
"The Arab are the same Arabs & the Sea is the same sea"
"When Arabs lay down their guns- there will be peace, when Israel lay down their guns- there will not be Israel"
all that Arabs needs to do is to allow Israel to exists- this is the ONLY obstacle to peace.

The more relevant question would be:

What would Americans do when a foreign occupying power arrives in America, claims that it has a (exclusive ?) right to the land as ordained by God, and then seeks to displace the existing population and deprive them of their property ?
How easy it is to wipe out 5,000 years of the worlds greatest heritage, re wright history and make a victim out of an aggressive offender.

They would probably do exactly what the Native Americans did here in the US, when the white man arrived and did exactly that: fight back and defend their rights ...to each his own.

Now, repeat after me:

Apartheid ...the ONLY Apartheid in Israel is the one going on daily by the Palestinians that teach their kids to kill all Jews.

Bantustan
...one needs to be completely out of touch to even suggest any resemblance

Dispossession ...if they do the crime they, @ least be willing to do the time.

Ethnic cleansing ...Never happened!, repeat after me: "the one that comes to kill you- be the first to kill him". if the Arab would'not be so arrogant to think they can kill all the Jews- they would've still lived exactly @ the same place.
Howcome thy Palestinians are the ONLY refugees in the world to which a refugee statue is inherited? 3 generation & counting?


I haven't been able to find the video of large Caterpillar wheel loader destroying the village ... I'll keep looking though ... because I know you want me to share it with everyone here so they can see all those "aggressive people" ... living out in the middle of nowhere in the desert, away from everyone else ... in the meantime, here's a little video of how Israel is actually treating the Bedouin (and other Palestinians), who they care so very, very much about ... in the Bedouin's (and Palestinians) own words ...There are MANY video's showing Israeli bullduzers destroying Jewish homes as well.


Only a complete and utter fool could possibly believe the Bedouin (which are actually Palestinian) and Palestinians (which aren't Israeli citizens) don't have common cause ...They don't, for the most part.

Info on both of the villages mentioned in the above video - including the actions of the "state" of Israel against these "aggressive" people:

Al-Araqeeb - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Susya - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

(Quick ... someone call Hasbara Central stat ... those Wiki entries cannot be allowed to stand !)
Those Wiki links do not tell the whole story. the residents of those villages made some bad choices, and sooner or later their crimes will catch up with them.
one needs to be 'complete and utter fool' not to see this.
the Victims here are the citizens of Israel- the offensives are the ones that do not comply with the law.
that's enough for one night.
Good night.
Peace!
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
be careful what you wish for:The BIG losers from a scrap of such plan, are the Bedouin's themselves.
Time will tell.

like i stated here before, the current living conditions cannot last for long.
the next plan will not be as good.
You might want to consider how that - if it turns out to be so - will be viewed by the world community.

Israel can little afford a miscalculation in this regard - as evidenced by the withdrawal of the plan itself.

when this o'l thing came about, i did raised an eyebrow, asking myself how on earth did they manage to talk to ALL of the different group involved.
It is no doubt a huge undertaking.

I totally agree that negotiations needs to be with all party's involved,
Good !

Then we are at least on the same page on that.

but, as knowing the diversity within the Bedouin's community so very well - this is a BIG undertaking. the Bedouin's are NOT one alike- they are very diversify.
I wouldn't doubt any of that one bit.

And I'm sure that it will be next to impossible to obtain completely unanimous agreement by all Bedouins.

As long as it's just (fair) in the eyes of the majority, that is probably the best that can be hoped for I suppose.

sooner or later a compromised will be achieved, i just do not think it will be as promising for the Bedouin's.
I hope that is not the case - both for the Bedouins ... and for Israel.

more to come.
{BTW i did not read in any other source that this plan will be abounded...yet, but then i was off the Internet for some time now...}
I understand.
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
An absolute distortion of the truth, and a rewriting of History.
Nope - it's no distortion, nor is it a rewriting.

Israel was committed to negotiations.
Israel has often been committed to "negotiations" (but not concluding them to a fair and just peace) ... it's how Israel has managed to continue the dispossession and ethnic cleansing ...

It's a ruse ... a means to accomplish an end.

however it was indeed the Palestinas that used the Oslo Agreement to launch an unprecedented terror attacks into Israel.
Really ?

Would you care to cite something that documents your assertion ?

It appears to me that the level of "terror" attacks were relatively low - a handful Israeli deaths per month at the very most, with no single attack resulting in more than two deaths - from the point of Oslo on (Feb '93) - until that psycho lunatic Kahanist - Baruch_Goldstein - perpetrated the Cave_of_the_Patriarchs_massacre February 25, 1994, killing 29 and leaving 125 wounded.

(People should read the both articles on Goldstein and the massacre to get a real appreciation of this bloodthirsty murderous thug - and how was he venerated by other Israeli nut jobs - including some rabbis)

My data on deaths by "terrorist" above is from the Jewish Virtual Library - which documents (so-called) "terror" attacks in "Israel" - and it's hard to know whether or not the "Israel" they're talking about is actually Israel ... or "Greater Israel" which might include Palestine (ie. the Occupied Territories)

Additionally, the death total referred to above includes IDF soldiers (who are certainly legitimate targets as an occupying force, leaving aside the existence of any peace agreements at the time)

I have no offsetting data for Palestinian deaths for that particular time period - so it's really hard to know who was getting the short end of the stick. I do however know that overall Palestinian loss of life over a long period outweighs Israeli - by a factor of 10 to 1 ... IIRC.

But the fact of the matter is, it's no surprise that Goldstein's wanton slaughter of unarmed Palestinian Muslims praying inside a mosque would only incite and inspire more violence.

Too bad Israel didn't "control" him eh ?

The fact is, Palestinians have a right to resist occupation - including through armed struggle - and it is a right recognized under international law:

International humanitarian law (IHL) does not expressly mention the right of an occupied people to resist an occupation. In 1977 article 1(4)of the First Additional Protocol (IAP) to the Geneva Conventions clearly expanded the application of the IHL to

"…armed conflicts in which peoples are fighting against colonial domination and alien occupation and against racist régimes in the exercise of their right of self-determination...".


However, Israel is not state-party to the Protocol and is therefore not obliged to follow its clause.

To ICRC and Article 1(4)


Read more about the First Additional Protocol
(IAP)


The use of force as part of resisting occupation in the Palestinian case is therefore derived from the international legitimacy to recourse to armed struggle in order to obtain the right to self-determination. In some cases resistance can also stem from the right to self-defence.
So - regardless of Israel being a party to the IAP, the Palestinians still have a right to resist through armed struggle.

You don't like your fellow tribe members getting killed, then pursue a just peace with the Pals - rather than a unjust peace that Israel attempts to enforce through subjugation and domination ... and stay off/out of their land - assuming y'all can ever manage to figure out what small pittance of land that will be.

If you choose to do otherwise, then be prepared to suffer the consequences.

Personally, I'd suggest that Israel get off it's *** and get down to business - because it is running out of time to do so. World opinion is increasingly moving against Israel ... and the generation of young people in the US coming up are far less likely to be willing to support Israel carte blanche than their elders have been. Our nation is essentially bankrupt and the welfare may not last for much longer.

Israel delays at it's own peril ...

Indeed, in the 5 years after the Oslo accords 'Only' 256 Jews have been killed in Israel, but it was the broken promise by the PA to control terrorism and their inability to cooperate with the, then, cooperated security with Israel. they could've had it!
Israel reaps what it sows ... see my comments ago about the actual documented history and facts as compared to your undocumented assertions, which is actually just more typical Israeli hasbara.

Sorry to disappoint you, but you wont find many politicains that negotiate in good faith.
Then Israel had better find some statesmen that will.

And while they're at it, they should see if they can prevent the crazed insane folks among you from assassinating them.

do i really need to post a link to the Palestinians 11 steps negotiation program?
You don't need to, but you certainly may if you wish (BTW - I think it is a 10 step program not 11, at least if you are referring to the PLO item)

In the meantime I'll post this analysis and description of Israeli's 10 point strategy on "negotiations". Folks can compare and draw their own conclusions:

Ten Israeli Negotiating Strategies


by Mohsen Saleh

Israel’s ten-part negotiating strategy with the Palestinians is designed to prolong negotiations as long as possible, while creating unavoidable facts on the ground, writes Mohsen Saleh* (from Al Ahram Weekly)

Israel has a negotiating strategy that is designed to prolong the negotiations, allowing more time for the construction of facts on the ground and putting it in a position to impose its will on the “final-status” talks. In fact, the strategy can be broken down into 10 distinct sub-strategies, done in the article that follows.

Overall, the Israeli strategy is based on conflict management, not conflict resolution, and it seeks to weaken its opponents bit by bit until they are convinced that the only option for a solution is the one made available by Israel — hence Israel’s prolonged negotiation process.

As a result, Israel dismisses the international conference approach to finding a comprehensive settlement, and it has always refused to reveal its trump cards, instead adopting a step-by-step policy in negotiations. This policy breaks agreements into separate tracks and then fragments them further into stages.

Israel has also benefited from its democratic system, which mostly serves only its Jewish citizens. Making good use of its scientific institutions and research centres, as well as its strategic and political experience, it manages the negotiating process with great professionalism, drawing on its power and the opportunities that are available to it.

Israel has benefited from a lack of parity in the balance of power in its favour, since it controls the land and people’s lives and has the military capability to defeat all the Arab armies combined. It has benefited from its strong international influence through the world Jewish and Zionist movements and its ability to influence decision-making in the West, particularly in the United States.

Moreover, Israel has been able to exploit divisions and weaknesses in the Palestinian, Arab and Muslim world. It has also been able to exploit poor negotiating skills and management by the Palestinians, who lack experience, political vision and overall strategy and suffer from internal divisions that Israel and its allies are able to exploit to their advantage.

The first of Israel’s 10 negotiating strategies means that there is always a deliberate lack of official initiatives that could determine the form of a final agreement, leaving the field open to statements made by politicians, intellectuals and military leaders without any official commitment.

Hence, there have been dozens of initiatives and ideas put forward, most of which regard Israel’s problems and not those of the Palestinians. Most of these initiatives have involved the introduction of some form of Palestinian government over parts of the West Bank and Gaza Strip, all of which are more about autonomy than about an independent state.

Ever since the project of Yigal Allon emerged one month after the 1967 war that suggested some form of autonomy for the Palestinians, projects of this sort have become the basis for most of what has followed.

Officially, the Israelis favour talking about what they reject, rather than what they will accept. For a long time, Israel has repeated a mantra of “no” reiterated by politicians and officials and adopted by most Israeli citizens. This has meant no to the return of East Jerusalem to the Palestinians, since in Israel’s view “Jerusalem is the eternal and undivided capital of Israel.” It has also meant no to the return of Palestinian refugees to their land, occupied by Israel in 1948.

It has meant no to the removal of the illegal Jewish settlements in the West Bank, and no to a Palestinian state that is completely independent with complete control over its land and borders.

Israel’s second strategy is to keep the negotiating process going as long as possible, avoiding final-status talks while also avoiding reaching a dead end, which might force the Palestinians to conclude that they have no option but resistance in order to reach an agreement. The Israelis want “negotiations” to be going on permanently, pushing the Palestinian and Arab negotiators to pursue the carrot of peace while giving themselves the time to build more facts on the ground.

A third Israeli negotiating strategy means welcoming Arab and Palestinian initiatives, taking whatever concessions they include as acquired rights and then building upon them in order to demand new initiatives to achieve new concessions.

Unlike their Israeli counterparts, Palestinian and Arab negotiators focus on initiatives for resolving the conflict, while the Israelis seek only to manage it. The Palestinians and Arabs operate in a state of weakness and fragmentation, and they face a lot of external pressure, including calls to be “realistic”.

They have, therefore, often included new concessions in their initiatives in order to make them more attractive to the Israelis, who then promptly welcome the concessions and demand more.

The Palestine Liberation Organisation (PLO), for example, was created in 1964 with the aim of liberating all of Palestine occupied in 1948. However, in 1968 the PLO adopted the idea of one democratic state for all, Muslims, Christians and Jews alike, including immigrants and the occupying Israeli settlers.

Furthermore, in 1974 the PLO adopted a 10-point programme to establish a state on any part of Palestine that is free or from which Israelis agree to “withdraw”. By 1988, it had adopted the resolution to partition Palestine and agreed to UN Resolution 242, which deals with the issue of refugees. It had also renounced “terrorism”, and it attended the Madrid Conference in 1991 and signed the “self-rule” agreement in Oslo in 1993.

For their part, the Arab regimes have moved in aim from the elimination of Israel to the removal of the effects of the 1967 war. They have moved from the approval of the Rogers Initiative in 1970, then to the initiative of the Fez Summit 1982, and finally to the Arab Initiative of 2002. Meanwhile, Israel has simply moved onto more and more Palestinian land.

Israel’s fourth strategy involves encouraging informal negotiations between unofficial Israeli parties, or between those with little influence on policymaking, and officials on the Palestinian side linked to the decision-making process, in order to get concessions from the Palestinians without any hint of Israeli commitments in return.

This happened with the understandings made by Yossi Beilin and Mahmoud Abbas in 1995 and in the Geneva Act in 2003. In the talks between Beilin and Abbas, the Palestinians made concessions on the right of return of refugees to land occupied in 1948, and agreed to a demilitarised Palestinian state, the existence of many Israeli settlements, and the Palestinian capital being in Jerusalem but in a village-like area. The Geneva Act introduced similar concessions on refugees, settlements, a demilitarised Palestinian state and Jerusalem.

What is important here is that the Palestinian side offered crucial concessions at an early stage, including some that could not be disclosed to the Palestinian people. However, the Israelis always regard such concessions as precedents on which to build and rights that they have acquired. Even though these understandings are not binding on the parties, it is clear that the Israelis use such concessions in subsequent initiatives.

Observers today note, for example, that the Israelis act as if they have finished with the issue of the return of the refugees, the settlements, and a demilitarised Palestinian state with incomplete sovereignty, and now just have to resolve the future of Jerusalem.

A fifth Israeli strategy involves using “dirty” tactics against the Palestinians, putting intense pressure on negotiators to give way and accept an imposed solution. These tactics have included the siege of Gaza, assassinations and arrests, land confiscation, house demolitions, closures, the wall, barriers, settlement building, the Judaisation process, checkpoints, delaying the implementation of agreements, and so on. All these are intended to terrorise and weaken the resolve of the Palestinian people.

Such tactics make the alleviation of suffering look like a major gain, and the cessation of illegal acts by Israel, such as settlement building, look like a major concession. The application of legal rights in turn becomes something to be negotiated.

A sixth Israel strategy is that Israel seeks to remove Palestinian points of pressure by separating Palestinian joint negotiations from the so-called Arab track and by pushing the PLO to renounce “terrorism” (actually lawful resistance to the illegal occupation of Palestinian land), forcing it by default to confront those Palestinians for whom resistance remains a legitimate way of challenging the occupation.

At the same time, no date is set for the end of the negotiations, and no reference point is agreed that could bind Israel, such as those in United Nations resolutions. Nor has any agreement called on Israel to stop its settlement activity, land confiscation and the Judaisation of Jerusalem while negotiations are being held. Thus, the issues are always linked to the “generosity” of Israel and whatever crumbs it wishes to throw from the table.

A seventh Israeli strategy holds that in order to prevent the Arabs from working as one strong bloc, different “tracks” have to be created in order to divide the opposition and strengthen Israel’s position. Egypt, Jordan and Palestine, for example, negotiate in isolation from each other, while Israel seeks to separate Lebanon and Syria.

Israel’s ninth strategy holds that the intervention of any outside party, whether the UN, the USA or Europe, will not be tolerated if it does not fit with Israeli interests. In this way Israel gets to decide what is discussed and what to give way on with no external pressure pushing it to commit to anything.

At the Oslo talks, there was no independent reference point that could bind Israel to ending the negotiations within a specific timeframe. After the agreement, the United Nations was no longer the international umbrella managing the conflict, and UN resolutions concerning Palestinian rights to self-determination are no longer references to be invoked in discussion.

Meanwhile, the United States continues to play the role of sponsor of the “peace process,” while the United Nations, Europe, Russia and others have left the process of the negotiations to the results of bilateral talks between the Palestinians and Israelis.

Israel’s ninth strategy means that it divides the negotiations into myriad details, making it difficult to move forward on any one of them without agreement on all. This strategy ties up dozens of negotiators for hundreds of hours in bilateral, multilateral and international meetings. The result is that if the Palestinians obtain even the most basic of their legal rights, this appears as a hugely significant victory and a painful Israeli concession.

A problem at the Oslo meetings was that they sought to deal with too many details before agreeing on basic principles and desired outcomes. The same was true of negotiations held from 1993 to 1999 in Cairo, Taba, Wye River and Sharm El-Sheikh. First, the details concerned Gaza and Jericho, then they concerned the division of the West Bank into areas “A”, “B” and “C”, with special status given to the city of Hebron. After that, the details concerned the design of special tracks for settlements, Jerusalem, refugees, and borders. And then came the further fragmentation of the already small pieces.

On the settlements issue, for example, this was divided into settlement blocs, “legal” settlements, random and security settlements, those already annexed to Israel in East Jerusalem, and others that will be annexed behind the wall, and so on.

The 10th and last of the Israeli negotiating strategies involves buying time and evading the obligations of the negotiation process. The Israelis have devoted themselves to avoiding any set dates for final-status talks, and nothing escapes their procrastination and delaying tactics.

Even when dates have been set, for example those marking the establishment of a Palestinian state first by 1998 and then by 2005, deadlines have been missed. All the while, of course, settlement building has continued, and more Palestinian land has been taken by Israel. The Palestinian Authority, however, is pressured to fulfill all of its obligations, usually for the benefit of Israel and not the Palestinian people.

In all these ways, Israeli strategy is designed to prolong the negotiations, while creating new facts on the ground. In the end, the Palestinians will be left with no further means to influence the process and with nothing to negotiate, except the limited options dictated by Israel.

* The writer is general manager of the Al-Zaytouna Centre for Studies & Consultations in Beirut, Lebanon.
Ten Israeli Negotiating Strategies | The Palestine Activists Handbook

{talking about good faith LoL}
Yes, I was ... you may laugh ... but the fact is, your nation itself was born of bad faith ...

And I'm afraid that that may not be able to overcome.
 
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RLENT

Veteran Expediter
or to the ongoing Antisemitiszem in the PA media?.
That's a street that runs both ways (Palestinian anti-semitism and Israeli Islamophobia) - some of it is genuine and some of it is no doubt political rhetoric ... either way it's not beneficial in terms of a solution to the problem.

You want I should post some video of the racism and religious bigotry prevalent in Israel ?

Starting maybe with the riots against African refugees which Members of the Knesset incited ?

We could move from there to the racism/religious bigotry towards Arabs.

Might be real educational for folks here stateside.


maybe to the never ending praising of Terrorism?
Resistance - including armed struggle - to colonialism and occupation is the Palestinians right under International Law.

the fact that every successful terrorist always & still getting PAIED salary. to start off a long list.
So do the terrorists of the IOF (aka IDF) ...

o'h & never forget that the above conversation was NOT a promise or a policy, it was a man comforting a mom that just lost her sun to a horrific terror attack.
If you are suggesting that it isn't Netanyahu's actual position/policy, then it follows that he was actually lying to that mother.

Excuse me while I go take a shower ...
 
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RLENT

Veteran Expediter
Those Wiki links do not tell the whole story.
Then it might be wise for you to provide some links that fill in the (allegedly) "missing pieces" for these particular instances.

the residents of those villages made some bad choices, and sooner or later their crimes will catch up with them.
one needs to be 'complete and utter fool' not to see this.
One needs to be a complete an utter fool to suggest that someone building a shed or adding a room on to their home - or even building an entire home (out in the desert) - without a required permit (that is apparently next to impossible to obtain if you are of the wrong ethnicity) is somehow really a "criminal" (in terms of what being "a criminal" is generally considered to be) ... it's largely a victimless "crime" ...

You're in America now Moose ... not Israel.

the Victims here are the citizens of Israel- the offensives are the ones that do not comply with the law.
The victims are the ones who are subject to a discriminatory law that is enforced selectively on an ethnic or racial basis.

that's enough for one night.
Good night.
Peace!
Shalom ... my brother from another mother ... ;)
 

Ragman

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
What a pleasure it has been to follow this thread. Both parties presented their case and debated without resorting to name calling.

Well done, my friends, well done.

2361140-393890-illustration-of-peace-between-israel-and-palestine-on-white-background.jpg
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
IsraelLovesPalestine - Facebook

Palestine-Loves-Israel - Facebook

I don't know if I've ever posted it this here or not (the memory is starting to go) but it was an effort by a young Israeli artist and designer - Ronny Edry - that went viral and developed into a phenomena ... it doesn't deal with Israel/Palestine initially, but with Israel/Iran ... I found it to be pretty inspiring:

 
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RLENT

Veteran Expediter
Ragman,

When one feels strongly about a matter, it is all too easy to let passions get inflamed as I'm sure you well know.

I am quite sure that Moose feels at least as strongly about the issue as I do, if not more so. His love for his native land and his people is very strong ... and I don't begrudge him any of it one bit.

Great image btw !
 
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moose

Veteran Expediter
Well, Back to the OP, shell we?
IF anyone still have the needs to understands the core issues of the plan, then wonder no more, a good find this morning that summed it up by an Internationally recognized expert on the issue.
introducing: the Distinguished Professor Emeritus in political science at Rutgers University.:
Mr.
Michael Curtis

here's the link:Guardian prejudice aside, Israel is helping Bedouins - The Commentator
& here is a full copy of that link:{it long, but worth reading to nyone seaking the truth on this matter}

Some of the usual suspects in the politically correct British company of Israel-bashers are at it again. This time, fifty public figures signed a letter in The Guardian on November 29, 2013 demanding that the British government protest what the letter called "forced displacement of Bedouin Palestinians" by Israel.
Not only should these automatic critics be ashamed of themselves for their insufferable ignorance and arrogance, but they are also espousing a politically reactionary, not progressive, point of view.
The letter was signed by "experts" on people, law, and conditions in the Negev in Israel, such as the actress Julie Christie, the film-makers Mike Leigh and Ken Loach, and members of Parliament, including Jeremy Corbyn and Lady Jenny Tonge.
Many of the signers have long exhibited their acute criticism or hostility on many occasions, having signed statements about alleged violations of something or other by Israel. It is less clear their "expertise" extends to mastery of the intricacies of Ottoman Land Law in the Middle East.
All can agree that the Bedouins, numbering 210,000 in the Negev, are the most impoverished group in Israel, and one with serious social problems.
They have a high birth rate -- 5 percent, one of the highest in the world -- and about 120,000 are under 18 years old. They suffer from a high poverty rate and also a high crime rate. To help them over the years, Israel has provided and still is allocating considerable resources -- about 1.2 billion shekels -- for development in the Negev in areas of employment, education, infrastructure, and personal security.
The tribal Bedouin population is still partly nomadic, as well as partly settled. To foster their development and integration into mainstream society, Israel has attempted their settlement with so far partial success. Between 1968 and 1989, Israel built seven townships, including Rahat and Hura, in the Northern Negev for Bedouins and provided housing, health, utilities, public services, and education.
About half of the Bedouins went there, and the rest remained in their villages.
As nomads, Bedouins have wandered across the area, and many in the Negev come from Arabia, Sinai, and Egypt. Slowly, they have been making the transition from animal husbandry to agriculture in the context of modernization and urbanization in Israeli society.
The Bedouins face problems of tension between tradition and change. Most important, the problem of Bedouin ownership of land and the settlements in which they live has perplexed Israel for many years.
Israel has been confronted with a number of issues: settling Bedouin ownership claims to land, ending the villages built illegally, fully integrating the Bedouins into Israeli society and economic prosperity, reducing the economic and social gap between the Bedouins and Israel society as a whole, and in general developing the Negev with emphasis on employment, education, and the rule of law.
Instead of welcoming Israeli efforts to deal with these complex issues, the uninformed and prejudiced letter in The Guardian criticizes the Israeli Prawer-Begin plan to deal with them. This plan was presented by a committee chaired by Ehud Prawer, head of the Department for Policy Planning in the Office of the Prime Minister.
The bill proposing the implementation of the plan was accepted in principle, after an impassioned debate in the Knesset, by 43-40 on June 13, 2013. It obviously will undergo revision on details before its final passage.
Land, appropriate settlement, and economic development are related. About 40 percent of Bedouins live in "unrecognized villages." These villages, 45 in the Negev, were built without official permission and therefore are not recognized or eligible for municipal services. More than 70,000 Bedouins live in homes that are not regulated, in buildings constructed illegally and with unresolved land ownership claims.
The Prawer plan would lead to decision on Bedouin claims to land ownership, based on land claims made according to the land survey in Northern Negev in 1971. In a general way, the Israeli plan is concerned with economic development and growth for all in the Negev, particularly focusing on employment, and education, including higher education.
Specifically, the idea is to expand existing towns and to build 41 new villages or towns, and to relocate about 40,000 Bedouins with compensation to designated towns from their "unrecognized" villages. In the new towns, the homes would be equipped with modern utilities, and the inhabitants would have title to about a quarter of an acre of land.
A major controversial problem is that of land ownership. According to the Land Law of the Ottoman Empire, which ruled the area for almost five hundred years, lands that were not registered as private were considered state lands.
Bedouins did not usually register, largely because of fear of taxation and military duties. Israeli law on the issue is derived from British Mandatory law, which incorporated Ottoman Law to a substantial degree.
Bedouin claims to land rights are hard to prove. Nevertheless, the Prawer plan does not disregard Bedouin property rights, nor does it fail to recognize appropriate land ownership or refer to Bedouins in derogatory terms. The plan for reform does not have as its objective discrimination and separation.
Critics of Israeli intentions hold that the tribal structures and agricultural way of life should be maintained in the Bedouin villages, and that the "unrecognized" villages, which cover less than five percent of the area of the Negev, should remain. It is true that Bedouins have their own culture, honor code, and code of laws.
But though the status quo may be sentimentally nostalgic, to fight for its existence amounts to a reactionary argument.
Not only is the claim of beneficial association of those "unrecognized" villages to historic ties overstated, but to honor it would also mean leaving Bedouins in a less developed, really backward condition, lacking basic services of water, electricity, telephones, roads, schools, and health clinics.
Do the signers of the letter know that some of the villages, which they implicitly sentimentally admire, presently consist of a few shacks made from corrugated iron?
It is hard to believe that Julie Christie and the other 49 people, actors, writers, artists, musicians, who signed The Guardian letter really want the Bedouins to remain in this condition. If they really do not approve the modernization and economic development of the Bedouins and would like to see them remain in squalor, they should say so.

end of quote.
You can now make your own, informed, decision whether Israel's are doing the right thing on this matter.

to learn more, simply ask EO members that actually know a thing or 2 about Bedouin's. someone that spent YEARs living among them, and sees to better their lives. someone that personally FED some of their kids. spent nights in their tents, learned how to LOVE{& be afraid of!} their COFFEE,& slept well @ nights knowing many of their best kids are out there in the IDF, @ night protecting Israel.
just look @ the Photo provided by the link.
have you ever seen a kid so PROUD of his older brother?
look @ the HAT the kid is wearing. the tiny golden on the front. this is exloosive to Bedouin's serving in the 'special forces detection unit'- a pride & joy for most of all Bedouin's, & a place where many Israeli's learn to rely on them with their own lives. those Bedouin's soldiers have skills that cannot be matched by most anyone else.
look @ the Israeli, Jew, Soldier behind, see that rank on the shoulder?, that say that he is outranked the Bedouie soldier. probably his direct officer. look how happy they are to work together. this is what the IDF do. it is a place where all part of society comes together, learn to respect and LOVE each-other. this is where lifelong friendships are born.
this is why Israel do their best to improve Bedouie's lives "which is a massive undertaking". so far about half of the Bedouin's population already see a better modernized way of live, Israel WILL make it right for the rest of them.
good luck to Israel in achieving it's goal. as stated, this plan sees to better the Bedouin's lives.
despite what people who are poised to demonized Israel will tell you.
good luck indeed.
 

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RLENT

Veteran Expediter
Well, Back to the OP, shell we?
Sure - by all means ...

IF anyone still have the needs to understands the core issues of the plan, then wonder no more, a good find this morning that summed it up by an Internationally recognized expert on the issue. introducing: the Distinguished Professor Emeritus in political science at Rutgers University.: Mr. Michael Curtis
LOL ... well in addition to being a (so-called) "internationally recognized expert", he's also an unabashed apologist for Israel (he's married to Judith Brodsky) ... and is a highly featured writer at the Gatestone Institute - which is functionally the Grand Central Station for all sorts of questionable whack-job characters - including many neocons - that make up "Islamophobia Inc.".

A little bit about Gatestone:

Gatestone Institute

According to one account, the institute was founded sometime around 2011 by Nina Rosenwald, an heiress of the Sears Roebuck empire who has been a key philanthropic backer of anti-Muslim groups and individuals in the United States. Describing Gatestone’s origins, journalist Max Blumenthal writes: "Through her affiliation with the Washington-based Hudson Institute, where Norman Podhoretz is an adjunct fellow, Rosenwald established a branch of the think tank in New York City. Operating under the Hudson banner, Rosenwald brought [the controversial anti-Islam Dutch politician Geert Wilders] to town in 2008 to warn against the Muslim plot to 'rule the world by the sword.' Wilders's tirade during that visit against the prophet Muhammad, whom he described as 'a warlord, a mass murderer, a pedophile,' was strident even by the standards of the hawkish Hudson Institute. By 2011 … Rosenwald separated Hudson New York City from Hudson’s national branch, changing her organization’s name to the Gatestone Institute."

At one point Gatestone listed "Fjordman (2013)" as a distinguished scholar, using a pseudonym for Peder Jensen, a far-right Norwegian blogger whose writings were featured in the manifesto of mass-murderer Anders Breivik. The listing has since been removed.

Full article on Gatestone at IPS:

Gatestone Institute - Profile - Right Web - Institute for Policy Studies

More on Nina Rosenwald and Gatestone:

The Sugar Mama of Anti-Muslim Hate

An heiress to the Sears Roebuck fortune, Rosenwald spreads her millions through the William Rosenwald Family Fund, a nonprofit foundation named for her father, a famed Jewish philanthropist who created the United Jewish Appeal in 1939. His daughter's focus is more explicitly political. According to a report by the Center for American Progress titled "Fear Inc.," Rosenwald and her sister Elizabeth Varet, who also directs the family foundation, have donated more than $2.8 million since 2000 to "organizations that fan the flames of Islamophobia."


Besides funding a Who's Who of anti-Muslim outfits, Rosenwald has served on the board of AIPAC, the central arm of America’s Israel lobby, and holds leadership roles in a host of mainstream pro-Israel organizations. As groups like AIPAC lead the charge for a US military strike on the Islamic Republic of Iran, threatening to turn apocalyptic visions of civilizational warfare into catastrophic reality, Rosenwald's wealth has fueled a rapidly emerging alliance between the pro-Israel mainstream and the Islamophobic fringe. (In 2003 alone the Rosenwald Family Fund donated well over half of its $1.6 million in total contributions to pro-Israel and Islamophobic organizations.) This alliance serves to sanitize and legitimize professional anti-Muslim bigots like Wilders, allowing their ideas to mingle easily with those of neoconservative foreign policy heavyweights intent on promoting the appearance of a convergence between US and Israeli interests by invoking the specter of a common "Islamofascist" enemy. With Gatestone - which publicizes the writings of figures ranging from pro-Israel super-lawyer Alan Dershowitz to "counter-jihad" propagandist Robert Spencer, and boasts Harold Rhode, a neoconservative former Pentagon official credited, as a senior fellow, with helping to try to push the Bush administration to invade Iraq - Rosenwald has attempted to shift the alliance into overdrive.

The Sugar Mama of Anti-Muslim Hate | The Nation

Maybe not so good to cite someone - who is an avowed, die-hard fan and apologist of Israel - and is so closely associated with a bunch of folks who have a well documented history of spreading racial hate and religious bigotry - at least if you want to the "expert" to appear to be "unbiased".

Here's the link to the "Fear Inc." study, mentioned above, which was done by CAP and thoroughly details the "Islamophobia Inc." network in a painstaking manner - who it's comprised of, and who funds it:

Fear, Inc. | Center for American Progress
 
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RLENT

Veteran Expediter
You can now make your own, informed, decision whether Israel's are doing the right thing on this matter.
... based on a narrative by an unabashed apologist of Israel ... given to you by another unabashed apologist for Israel ...

That they weren't doing the "right thing" is clearly evident by Begin's own admission that he hadn't really talked and sought input from the Bedouin (despite some in Israel's government lying and saying he had) ... and by the fact that the government pulled and killed the plan in it's current form.

to learn more, simply ask EO members that actually know a thing or 2 about Bedouin's. someone that spent YEARs living among them, and sees to better their lives. someone that personally FED some of their kids. spent nights in their tents, learned how to LOVE{& be afraid of!} their COFFEE,& slept well @ nights knowing many of their best kids are out there in the IDF, @ night protecting Israel.
Logical fallacy: appeal to "authority" ... in addition to being the "We Rock" portion of the playlist ...

In the context of deductive arguments, the appeal to authority is a logical fallacy, though it can be properly used in the context of inductive reasoning. It is deductively fallacious because, while sound deductive arguments are necessarily true, authorities are not necessarily correct about judgments related to their field of expertise. Though reliable authorities are correct in judgments related to their area of expertise more often than laypersons, they can still come to the wrong judgments through error, bias or dishonesty. Thus, the appeal to authority is at best a probabilistic rather than an absolute argument for establishing facts.

just look @ the Photo provided by the link.
have you ever seen a kid so PROUD of his older brother?
look @ the HAT the kid is wearing. the tiny golden on the front. this is exloosive to Bedouin's serving in the 'special forces detection unit'- a pride & joy for most of all Bedouin's, & a place where many Israeli's learn to rely on them with their own lives. those Bedouin's soldiers have skills that cannot be matched by most anyone else.

look @ the Israeli, Jew, Soldier behind, see that rank on the shoulder?, that say that he is outranked the Bedouie soldier. probably his direct officer. look how happy they are to work together. this is what the IDF do. it is a place where all part of society comes together, learn to respect and LOVE each-other. this is where lifelong friendships are born.
Logical fallacy: appeal to emotion ... in addition to being more of the "We Rock" portion of the playlist ...

Appeal to emotion or argumentum ad passiones is a logical fallacy which uses the manipulation of the recipient's emotions, rather than valid logic, to win an argument. The appeal to emotion fallacy uses emotions as the basis of an argument's position without factual evidence that logically supports the major ideas endorsed by the elicitor of the argument. Also, this kind of thinking may be evident in one who lets emotions and/or other subjective considerations influence one's reasoning process. This kind of appeal to emotion is a type of red herring and encompasses several logical fallacies ...
this is why Israel do their best to improve Bedouie's lives "which is a massive undertaking". so far about half of the Bedouin's population already see a better modernized way of live, Israel WILL make it right for the rest of them.
good luck to Israel in achieving it's goal. as stated, this plan sees to better the Bedouin's lives.
Switch back to to a little "We Rock" ...

despite what people who are poised to demonized Israel will tell you.
And finally, we have come to the grand finale of the playlist with the "You Suck" portion ...

good luck indeed.
Yupper ...

Jews sans frontieres: How to make the case for Israel and win
 
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RLENT

Veteran Expediter
What neocon Israel Firsters - in this case, mainstream media figure John Podhoretz, Editor of Commentary Magazine - say when they become extremely frustrated at someone, when that person acts to expose the truth about either about themselves, or Israel (warning: utterly vulgar, extremely disgusting, totally vile language):

Jewish leader decries those who 'xxxx the xxxxx of Jew-haters'

In this case, the vitriol is probably even further inflamed by the very fact that the person doing the exposing is, himself, Jewish.

Rather ironic coming from a magazine that in it's Mission Statemnt states its "dedication" to:

“the preservation of high culture in an age of political correctness and the collapse of critical standards.”

And it certainly takes the "You Suck" portion of the script to a whole new level ...
 
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RLENT

Veteran Expediter
A little more insane psychopathic derangement from John Podhoretz - back when he was writing at the NY Post.

Basically what he is advocating is Iraq that didn't go as quite as swimmingly as it might have because ... we just didn't commit enough genocide:

What if the tactical mistake we made in Iraq was that we didn't kill enough Sunnis in the early going to intimidate them and make them so afraid of us they would go along with anything? Wasn't the survival of Sunni men between the ages of 15 and 35 the reason there was an insurgency and the basic cause of the sectarian violence now?

If you can't imagine George W. Bush issuing such an order, is there any American leader you could imagine doing so?

And if America can't do it, can Israel? Could Israel - even hardy, strong, universally conscripted Israel - possibly stomach the bloodshed that would accompany the total destruction of Hezbollah?

The Belgravia Dispatch: Morality and War-Fighting

#chickenhawkswhoneedsem
 
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