GPS can't find it's *&&

mjmsprt40

Veteran Expediter
Owner/Operator
Have any of you been having trouble with your GPS lately? I have, and it seems so far to be in the Chicago Metro Area-- anywhere else it seems to be OK. But, in Chicago my Tom-Tom suddenly can't find its way home from its left elbow. It loses the satellites completely. Not just for a few blocks, but over a several-mile area at a time. I'm curious to see if anybody else is experiencing this, and if so, where. I have a couple of theories, and in order to test which is most likely I would like to know if it happens elsewhere or if it's just in Chicago.

I note here that once I'm out of the metro area, my Tom-Tom works. Further, the problem here has only just started in the last couple of weeks.
 

twentyhigh

Seasoned Expediter
I used to use a TomTom and loved it! But I got a new Magellan at Christmas and it is horrible! I got so turned around last week, I mean literally had me going in circles!!!!
 

mjmsprt40

Veteran Expediter
Owner/Operator
One theory can be put to bed temporarily, at least. There's reports of a new 4-G phone network that tried to use the band next to the GPS band, and since it's much more powerful than the satellite signals it would drown out GPS. Problem: If that were the case, it would do it all the time. I'm not experiencing that. Yesterday afternoon, my Tom-Tom behaved as I describe above-- unable to see the satellites anywhere in the area. Last night, I had a run from Chicago to Mt. Sterling, Kentucky, and the GPS operated flawlessly all night and all of today, so I rule out that rogue 4-G network for the moment. That leaves my other pet theory, which is that the government is playing games. The G-8 summit is to be held in Chicago this year, and it's more than possible that the powers-that-be are experimenting with jamming the signals so the protesters will have a harder time organizing. It was already mentioned elsewhere, and denied by the government, that some effort might be made to shut down cell phones downtown so the protesters couldn't organise that way. So, it's possible.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
No GPS is going to work flawlessly in any canyon, be it the Grand one or the canyons of a large downtown city, with downtown Chicago and New York being particularly bad with satellite reflections off buildings, which throws off the timing of the signals, so the GPS receiver thinks it's in a different location than it is. Could be off by a block or two, or even a mile or two.
 

mjmsprt40

Veteran Expediter
Owner/Operator
No GPS is going to work flawlessly in any canyon, be it the Grand one or the canyons of a large downtown city, with downtown Chicago and New York being particularly bad with satellite reflections off buildings, which throws off the timing of the signals, so the GPS receiver thinks it's in a different location than it is. Could be off by a block or two, or even a mile or two.

That wouldn't cause the unit to be absolutely unable to see the satellites while you're in the suburbs, though. That's what I was experiencing yesterday while driving through Lombard, Glendale Heights and Carol Stream. A few days ago I had it happen on the far North side of Chicago, and it's all bungalows and strip-malls there. It's hard to find anything taller than three stories-- but my unit was down from Narragansett Street East to Broadway, and from roughly Irving Park Road North to Foster Avenue.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
OK, it was hard to tell exactly what you meant by Chicago, and Chicago Metro area. Right downtown it can lose the satellites easily. But it can also lose them outside the city, a well. One thing you have to remember is that GPS signal are nothing more than radio signals, and lots of things can interrupt the signals. If your GPS unit shows them, or if you have an application that shows all of the possible satellites, you can see which ones the unit is connected to and how strong the signal is. I have an Android app called "GPS Test" which gives a good visual of signal strength and connected satellites. The civilian GPS uses a single frequency, while the military GPS uses two. The single-frequency of civilian GPS makes it more vulnerable to signal degradation and loss by a host of factors, not the least of which are natural interference and the quality of the GPS receiver electronics.

As for the government jamming GPS signals, just like any radio signal, it can be jammed. But it's highly illegal to do so, even by the government. It's also insane, since jamming GPS signals dramatically affects aircraft and shipping navigation. Not really something you'd want to do in and around Chicago. Too many businesses rely on it, plus the E-911 depends on it. If you want to disrupt G8 Summit protesters, jamming GPS won't have much of an effect, since intersection street names can be quickly Tweeted. Far more effective to block social media than to block GPS.

In the last couple of weeks we've seen the results of increased solar activity, which has affected GPS and satellite radio at times, briefly. This Saturday and Sunday (Feb 11 and 12) we'll get hit with the results of a couple of really large solar flares, which could render GPS units useless for short and long periods of time. On Monday and Tuesday, for example, three large solar flares and several smaller ones erupted from the Sun and started hitting the Earth on Thursday and Friday, causing GPS and other satellite problems. Should make for some nice North and South Pole light shows, though. Look for more episodes this weekend especially, and throughout next week. The Sun has gone from a relatively quiet period to a relatively active period, and should remain active for a while, several weeks to several months. On a scale of 1-5, with 5 being strong enough to knock out power grids of cities and countries, what we're seeing now is about a 2 or a 3, which is enough to mess with GPS and other satellites for short periods of time, assuming it doesn't fry any of the satellites.
 

mjmsprt40

Veteran Expediter
Owner/Operator
Solar flares--- Yes, that might do it. I was interested in the idea that whatever was hitting me messed with me only in the Chicago area and cleared up as soon as I got out of the Chicago area. Monday afternoon, I had a trip to Battlecreek. From the pick-up in Franklin Park to approximately 95th Street on the 294, you could forget about GPS. Then, it came back on at 95th Street and never gave another problem. Local flares???

I'll have another chance to check it today, this morning I head up to Kenosha for a pick-up. It's for delivery Monday, but I get a chance to rest between pick-up and delivery. I know that no jamming device has the range to reach from Chicago to Kenosha, so if I get trouble at an unreasonable range from Chicago I guess solar flares have to be considered.
 
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highway star

Veteran Expediter
Owner/Operator
I loaded Thursday afternoon north of Milwaukee and headed to Detroit. I went through the Chicago area on 294 and had no hiccups at all with my 465.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
Could be the quality of the GPS receiver. They do go bad and sometimes get quirky before they fail. Could have also been nothing more than timing, rather than location. I've had mine go bonkers (due to solar activity) in rural areas, where normally it's fine, and then the next time through there it's fine again. There are several satellites it looks for, and sometimes, for whatever reason, it can only see one or two for a few minutes, and that can make it do strange things.
 

tumbleweeds

Expert Expediter
Owner/Operator
We have been having trouble with our Garmin for the last couple of weeks. We are in Houston currently. We have had it about 2 + years without too much trouble. Just a quirk?
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
Well, there is an increased amount of solar activity that's been going on for the last couple or three weeks, so I'm inclined to blame that more than anything.
 

mjmsprt40

Veteran Expediter
Owner/Operator
I may have to go back to my original thought, that deliberate (whether it's legal or not) jamming could be involved. The idea of sunspots only affecting my unit when I'm in the six-county metro area and nowhere else is surely not to be thought of. The same is true of the idea that my unit may be about to kack and is going bonkers before it does. Only near home and nowhere else? The idea that a new 4-G phone network, operating on frequencies right next to the GPS frequencies can also be discounted, if that was the case I should have trouble near any of the major metropolitan areas, not only Chicago. So, there's a screw loose somewhere or I'm mistaken.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
I may have to go back to my original thought, that deliberate (whether it's legal or not) jamming could be involved.... Only near home and nowhere else?
Only you and no one else? Makes no sense. If there was jammin' goin' on there, it'd be all over the net. During presidential and other high profile visits, the government will jam cell phone signals in the immediate area to prevent someone from detonating a bomb simply by dialing a phone number, but they generally don't block GPS receivers since they are passive devices.

There could be any number of things causing RF interference in a given area, almost all of them are not conspiracy related. First thing I'd do is rule out things that can be easily ruled out, like the GPS unit itself. Buy, borrow or steal another GPS unit and run them side by side and see which one, or if both, goes bonkers. If you have GPS navigation on your phone, use that, too. If just the TomTom is messed up, there ya go. If both go nuts, there's some RFI in that area. If there is FRI in the area, rather than jump to conclusions about the source, you have to try and find out what it is. It could be nearby power lines or an over active transformer leaking frequencies. It's radio, and like all other radio signals, it's not perfect all the time, everywhere. If it makes you feel better somehow to believe there is deliberate jamming going on, well I guess that's OK, too.
 

mjmsprt40

Veteran Expediter
Owner/Operator
It's my pet conspiracy theory of the moment. I suppose everyone has one now and then. I've had a running forum battle with a guy who believes that HAARP is causing earthquakes, tornadoes and hurricanes, further that the federal government is doing it to test their new weapon of war. Why they would send a EF5 tornado to Joplin, Missouri, a hurricane to New York or an earthquake to Japan is anybody's guess, but there it is.

My GPS problems seem to be clear for the moment. A pick-up in Kenosha Saturday, then home-- followed by the delivery in Oklahoma City yesterday morning, then the trip home from there-- not a moment of trouble from the GPS, even in an area where it had given me trouble a week ago. So, whatever it is it's not a constant bugbear.
 

purgoose10

Veteran Expediter
I have a Tom Tom in my glove box and thats where it will stay. It has sent me in directions I care not to think about again. I can sit in my yard and it tells me I'm sitting on a dirt road two miles from where I'm at. I also have the problem in my small town where I live. Can't get within several blocks of where I put the address in. The biggest waste of $300 bucks I have ever had.:mad:
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
Make sure you have all the software updates installed for it. Not just maps, but the operating software.
 

purgoose10

Veteran Expediter
I connected to the site for updates everytime I got back in from a trip. Same results. I also think it's to hard to set up, should be easier to enter a destination. But that could be me also. I came out of Detroit (couple years back) and had it routed to my base in SC. It wanted me to get on 90 east bound. Just for the heck of it I went along with it. The very next exit it had me turning around and going back to 75. I contacted Tom Tom and they said send it in. I did and they sent me another one only to find out it was crazier than the first. I'm to old for this. :)
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
Sometimes I fall for it. Like when the Garmin wants me to exit off the Interstate, and then get right back on. One time in Mobile, AL it had me get off the interstate, drive around the block, and get right back on. It laughed at me for 30 miles.
 

purgoose10

Veteran Expediter
Sometimes I fall for it. Like when the Garmin wants me to exit off the Interstate, and then get right back on. One time in Mobile, AL it had me get off the interstate, drive around the block, and get right back on. It laughed at me for 30 miles.

I have to learn to laugh at it. It's a good thing I new where I was at. My drivers have Garmin and they love them so I will probably get one of those. It had me so confused when I got to 90 I had to stop and look at a map. I've been through that Toledo intersection hundreds of times but I got to admit it got me. Goes to show you if you rely on them all the time they will get you sooner or later. Now I really use them for point of delivery and not getting to that town. I guess I've been out here long enough to figure that part out.
 
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