3126 rebuild

[D Green]

Weave, you are correct about the tight clearance in the FL model trucks. The rear cylinder is about under the firewall.

I was just talking of the way I'd seen it done on those rigs. They had an engine cowling that could be removed, unlimited o/head clearance. I do remember the machinist washing the block with benzene after cutting. The last rebuild I am familiar with, done in-frame, was approx $5k, took three days. The crank was not pulled, the torque converter was not disconnected.

I own one of the 3126's, but have never had any problems, yet. (where's the wood to knock on??);-) I, too, am here to learn any labor/money saving techniques available.

Nope, seen many a 6/71 rebuilt, but not familiar with the paint...

Dennis

 

[Jimmy]

Damn Weave!!!
You gonna make me tell my age!!!!!!!LOL, so here goes.....
Back when I was a lil' boy the man from the machine shop in town would come out in his pick-up truck to the farm,or the local garage,or in my case my daddy's driveway. He would procede to unload his portable boring bar fit atop the block.Oh on an old 9-n ford red-belly tractor.My job was to take the new ones into my Mother so she could put them into the freezer while he bored out the cylnders. The best example I could give you is he bored it out around .125 or an 1/8 inch then installed .127-.128outside diameter for a press fit they would be .060 oversize inside diameter sleevs. ( Now this is back when you still got thick blocks.)The machine shop man had a special driver that he used to install the sleeves which were really nothing more than pieces of cast iron pipe. He would drive them down flush as possible with the block deck then he would use a real large flat file to run over the deck & make sure they were true.Now there is the difference these were sleeves not liners like you said but it would be the same with the Cat as it would with the old Ford Red-Belly
As I grew up I have seen the same prcedure done on old B-Macks with sleeves small cam & big cam cummins that needed oversize liners & detroits too. No problem just keep it CLEAN.....JIMMY

 

[Weave]

That is interesting the things that could be done in the past. Am curious though as to why a block that has liners to begin with would need oversized liners? Is it just that guys wanted to do this to get a little bit bigger bores and more power, or is there something that can happen to the block with the original liners? If that were ever the case with a Detroit S60 in a Freightliner Century/Columbia or other short-nose trucks, they could not be overbored in frame, as the #5 and 6 cylinders are just about under the firewall, as is the case with the CAT 3126 in the little Freightliners. On my Columbia I question if there is even room to get the piston and sleeve out of #6 with an in-frame, but the OHC head is tall so there must be. They just don't make anything easy or inexpensive anymore:'(
-Weave-

 

[Jimmy]

Hey Weave,
I see now where you are coming from on the clearance problem of the trucks. Now the story I told you in the other post is going on 45 years!LOL the boring bar that he used wasn't no bigger than my H-P 'puter tower & best I can remember on that thing that it sorta sit off to the side so maybe if someone out there & I know some machine shops that still do use that type. The counter bore tools are even smaller.Got a question on your reasoning. Are you thinking that the sleeve will be against the water water jacket? Because in these cases they were not there still was block metal left.( I was told that I-H does that to all their reman 7.3 to help with block integrity.)I see that your with All-State. Next time you are around Greensboro,N.C.Go out Wendover Avenue east. look for a little yellow building on the right thats Key Block. drop in & talk to Junior Key he's the best on the East Coast.. Oh yeah the silver paint : you remember VHT headerr paint? If the customer didn't want to spend the money on a liner rebore on a Series 71 or 92 & it wasn't over .0015 clearance between the block & the outside dimension of the NEW liner we would spray them down with 2-3 coats of paint them slip them in! If I remember correctly it worked everytime. Jimmy

 

[Jimmy]

Dave,
I have two questions. On the head replacemaent did that include the injectors too? And on the turbo was that a reman, new , or the main housing & wheel replacement? Thanks Jimmy

 

[davekc]

I think that did include replacing injectors. I am not sure on the turbo whether a reman or new, only that he recommended it as it would be covered under the new warranty. Also, he did say they can do a inframe on a fl70 but they are more difficult than when the engine is out. It is easier on a KW or Pete. Sorry folks, he didn't say anything on a GMC. The earlier post was correct on the crank and all that stuff. Engine has to come out for that. I quess all that falls under a complete rebuild. Be patient, I'm kinda learning all this as I go.

 

[Weave]

Thanks for the e-mail Jimmy. I think we all are curious to see what can be done with the 3126 short of a replacement. I think what they are wanting to do is something similar to the Cummins B/ISB engines, that is to sleeve re-useable uncracked blocks.
DaveKC will find this funny- had first major problem with Detroit S60 today- started it in 10 degree cold, and looked under it to see major oil gushing out under it. Crawled under it, and looks to be coming from the point where the oil filter adapter connects to the block. It stopped once engine got warm, but am going to pull it apart and check it out anyway. So much for no oil leaks on the Detroit:7
-Weave-

 

[davekc]

Hey Weave, nothing funny about oil gushing unless it's a well, especially in 10 degree weather. Sounds like a seal or gasket?

 

[Weave]

Looks to be a leaking O ring. But, the thing is a major pain to remove as just about every piece of the engine plumbing goes on the adapter. Brought truck to my local mechanic to get fixed as it's a bit too much for me to handle myself esp. with the weather outside.
Looks like another few days of vacation, but it's kind of slow anyways. Glad this didn't happen in July!
-Weave-

 

[Jimmy]

Dave,Weave,
Thanks for your replies. Weave I hope the E-mail helped out with a better explination. Dave my understanding for an "in-frame" overhaul is that pistons & rings (with sleeves or liners extra) main bearings
rod bearings rebuild head or remanhead . You could do a camshaft too but would have to pull the radiator. The out of frame would include
vatting the block to clean out sludge new cam bearings all new seals
plus line boring the main caps & the rod bores plus new lifters or followers. Thus effectively you have a "new" engine block
Jimmy

 

[davekc]

That is what they are basically telling me. I quess the most important thing is that it is a fully rebuildable engine. With reviewing the costs, it seems pretty reasonable versas a rebuild of any other make. I don't know Weave, I am starting to like my cat alittle more. (just kidding)

 

[Weave]

If that price quote is ligit, it would be cheap, and definitely make the 3126 much more likeable if the job works decently. International DT's can be in-framed for about $4000. The Cummins C8.3 cost $6700 to in frame with the turbo. My Detroit is about $6500 for the in-frame, but I probably won't have it once it reaches that mileage, I only keep my trucks about 4-4.5 years, at which point a lot of things usually need replacing.
Oil leak was thankfully only two loose bolts, I'm finally back and ready to run after 2.5 weeks at home
-Weave-

 

[davekc]

He says inframe won't exceed the $3,300 mark A little higher on the out of frame. He says 5 to 6 thousand plus cost of turbo if replaced.
I can live with that. Much better than cost of a new engine.
Hey Weave...glad it was a quick fix

 

[Larry]

>He says inframe won't exceed the $3,300 mark A little higher
>on the out of frame. He says 5 to 6 thousand plus cost of
>turbo if replaced.
>I can live with that. Much better than cost of a new engine.
>Hey Weave...glad it was a quick fix

Here we are at reply #33 and I am still confused!!! You say "He says inframe won't exceed the $3,300" Who said? The "5 to 6 thousand plus turbo" - is that in reference to the "out of frame"?

After reading the 32 comments above, I am not sure what I would get for $3,300. Could you please summurize this for my small brain.

This is a great web site, but some of the side bars lead away from the question at hand and become overwhelming.

Thanks

 

[teacel]

What he is saying is – if you have an in frame rebuild done it will cost about $3300.00. An in frame rebuild is when they (the mechanic) rebuilds an engine with out taking it out of the truck. Most in frame rebuilds are the upper portion of an engine. If you have to have an out of frame rebuild done he (the mechanic) is saying it will cost about $5000.00 or $6000.00. An out of frame rebuild is when a mechanic has to remove the engine from the truck and rebuild the entire engine. If you need to have a new turbo that will be a separate cost on top of the rebuild charge. If the engine is under any warranty’s then your cost will be less than the above numbers. Hope this helps anyone that may have been confused.

 

[davekc]

Thanks Teacel, that explains it well.
Just a footnote; the only reason he was suggesting a new or reman. turbo was to get it covered under the rebuild warranty. This is much longer than "just a turbo replacement warranty"

 

[ClassicOne]

just got off the phone with ring power in Jacksonville, we all shouldn't get our hopes up too much. they currently have a sleeve job 3126 in the shop and anticipate with a turbo out the door of a price of $9600. Now that IS a savings of 5-6K under the reman price but is over he 3300-6000 i read earlier. It seems that they have to machine the block for the sleeve job initially, so I'm assuming the 3300 sleeve job is resleeving the engine down the road after the first sleeve job's machine work. Still, they tell me that the warranty for the sleeve job is better than the reman warranty. No free lunch, but it IS better!!

 

[Weave]

That is exactly what I have been thinking from the beginning, if you look at my posts. The Cat 3126 block has to be initially removed and bored for the sleeves, an "out of frame" rebuild in other words the first time around. Consecutive rebuilds could be done in frame, but if and only if the sleeves do not move in the bores after the job. If they do, a cleanup rebore and honing is necessary, and that connot be done on an FL70 or the little KW/Pete's with the engine in the frame, as the #5 and 6 cylinders are too close to the firewall.
Simiar problems are going to occur with the parent bore MBE900's once they get high miles. (Just watch and wait my friends
The Cummins C8.3/ISC and International DT series engines on class 7 trucks feature wet sleeved cylinder liners. The initial "little bit more" these engines cost when new saves you money later on. Plus, they are engines designed for wet sleeves, not something retrofitted that may or may not give good results.
-Weave-

 

[Larry]

This is some information I had posted a while back about Midwest Diesel Service (Minn. MN). They provide warrented 3126's/250hp, with turbo & ECM. No flywheel, electrical etc. for $8500+s/h shipped to you. You return the old engine and they pay the shipping back to them. My mechanic says about $2000 to swap out engines. I would guess we would find some things to replace - so maybe add another $1000. So for $11,500 I would have a new engine vs. $9600 for someone to rebuild the old one. Now the $1,000 - $2,000 more is still a bit of money, and I would still have the old '98 freightliner; but, I would rather have a new engine than to rebuild one that I know is undersized and often pushed to its limits. Even bored and resleeved, that doesn't guarantee the integrity of that block (it may have small cracks just waiting to make an appearance!!!).

For this truck (which is not used for expediting) I am not convinced that remanufacturing these small block engines is the best use of my money.

Drive Safe

 

[Weave]

I agree if the rebuild/sleeve job was something that could be done for 5 or 6 grand it would be worth a try, but it does not look like that is the case, and no, you certainly aren't getting a "new" engine for what the job will cost. The sleeves can create problems of their own when put into these blocks. The sleeve jobs done to the Cummins B engines have not been anything to cheer about. I'm going to take another wild guess and say that the engines being sold by this Midwest Diesel Service are bored-over reconditioned 3126's, not brand new engines, as a new 3126 from CAT lists for around $11k plus your $2k to swap. I think this sleeve kit is giving owners some more options, but some bucks will still have to be forked out. What CAT should develop is a wet sleeve block with larger displacement that is a drop-in replacement for the 3126. That would no doubt make the cost worth it.
-Weave-