Congressman Who Gets Millions In Farm Subsidies Says Food Stamps Are Stealing

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
Clearly, you still don't understand even the basics of farm subsidies, what they are and why they exist and what they do, even after being told the basics, and you still think that somehow farm subsidies and SNAP are directly connected. You're imagining a problem, an injustice, that isn't there, and you're taking the word of someone who is imagining the same thing.

You think Fincher got $70,000 just for the heck of it (or at least the author of that piece does and you seem to believe him), just because he's a farmer. But he didn't. He got $70,000 last year to grow cotton that he otherwise would not have grown, and then to sell it at a controlled, reduced price, in order for you to have your "I'm with Stupid" t-shirt with the arrow pointing north for $10 a pop instead of $40 because of no competition for imported cotton and cotton goods. In addition, the subsidy allows him to grow corn, beans and wheat at a reduced profit in order to keep the commodity prices low and stable instead of them being at the mercy of the world commodity market where food would cost 3 or 4 times what it costs now.

None of that has anything whatsoever to do with SNAP. Nothing. They're not only not directly connected, they're not even distantly related twice removed by marriage.

At this point, if your mindset is still, "Well the guy in the OP is still right!," then I got nothing. It's like trying to discuss different characteristics of red and green with a man wearing yellow tinted sunglasses who keeps insisting everything is just different shades of blue, and refuses to remove the glasses.

Don't make me quote Ron White. :D
 

Maverick

Seasoned Expediter
Mr Express. Unfortunately, you've fallen victim to those who don't see the big picture and actually believe this hype of trying to get people to grow certain commodities for the benefit of the world and markets. :rolleyes:

Your very correct, and here's one person who understands what your trying to say. Farm subsidies are nothing more than transfer of wealth and total control of the future food supply. Why do people suppose the huge cooperation's have driven the small farmer out of business? These people pass bills which benefit their capitalist buddies, while lining their own pockets.

Some of the listed arguments make no sense at all....given people are starving every day, while these people are getting richer with their schemes and targeted legislation. Don't expect everyone to see what's actually going on. Just wanted to let you know, some actually do.
 
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Maverick

Seasoned Expediter
"You think Fincher got $70,000 just for the heck of it (or at least the author of that piece does and you seem to believe him), just because he's a farmer. But he didn't. He got $70,000 last year to grow cotton that he otherwise would not have grown, and then to sell it at a controlled, reduced price, in order for you to have your "I'm with Stupid" t-shirt with the arrow pointing north for $10 a pop instead of $40 because of no competition for imported cotton and cotton goods. In addition, the subsidy allows him to grow corn, beans and wheat at a reduced profit in order to keep the commodity prices low and stable instead of them being at the mercy of the world commodity market where food would cost 3 or 4 times what it costs now."


1) Where did he get 70, 000 from? Did the government sell some property or something? Yard sale money?

2) Who controls this price? You don't suppose Wall Street is playing with this, do you?

3) subsidy Can you explain what this is? And just how it fits in with real capitalist and free markets?

4) world commodity market where food would cost 3 or 4 times what it costs now
Can you explain who controls this market and just where you get your information on how it would raise prices 3-4 times current?

There is nothing here which explains why people are starving, why Wall Street is no place to play (unless your an insider), and how money is raised for subsidies and differs from how it's raised for food stamps. Where does the money come from? I hear these shallow arguments all the time and it amazes me how people buy this stuff. It's so off the point and out of the realm of big picture...to be laughable.
 
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Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
You mistakenly have the impression that I'm defending farm subsidies. I'm not. I just know how it all works, is all. You can laugh all you want, but without the farm subsidies, in the current world market and agricultural economy farmers would only grow what makes them money, and nothing else, but all it would take is one year for everything to grow the same thing (almost certainly corn, for a plethora of reasons), and the price of corn would plummet and what little other foods are available would skyrocket, simple supply and demand.

As for who controls the prices, it's primarily the Chicago Board of Trade and to a lesser degree Wall Street and the USDA. This is not new news. If you think that's wrong and evil, well that's fine, and I tend to agree with you, but it ain't some big secret conspiracy, the whole thing's been right there out in the open since the Chicago Board of Trade was founded about 1850 at the urging of merchants and farmers to ensure there would be buyers and sellers of commodities. Up until that point farmers didn't know what to grow and they or the merchants had no idea whether those commodities would ever sell, and many years they didn't.

How the money is raised for subsidies and food stamps may be the same, but that doesn't mean food stamp welfare and farm subsidies are the same. Using that logic, road construction and the armed forces are welfare, since the money for them are raised in the same exact manner.

Big picture? You've created your own big picture and constructed it exactly how you want. You can't even see the real picture because you don't understand the history of it all.
 

paullud

Veteran Expediter
I think people are viewing farm subsidies as people getting something for nothing like welfare recipients instead of digging into the issue. If you look at my political views, you will see I don't support welfare and might be a little to cold hearted according to some. The fact remains that our country has to bring stability to certain industries because a true free market will create nothing but chaos.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using EO Forums mobile app
 

Maverick

Seasoned Expediter
"How the money is raised for subsidies and food stamps may be the same, but that doesn't mean food stamp welfare and farm subsidies are the same."

And this was the point all along. It's welfare, (taken from me, and given to someone else) and the benefactors (now that small farmer has been all but eliminated) are insiders. And this conspiracy thing always being thrown around is tread wearing thin. Once a theory is supported by even one fact.......it's no longer just a theory.

And the facts are in, as the OP eluded to.
 

Maverick

Seasoned Expediter
I think people are viewing farm subsidies as people getting something for nothing like welfare recipients instead of digging into the issue. If you look at my political views, you will see I don't support welfare and might be a little to cold hearted according to some. The fact remains that our country has to bring stability to certain industries because a true free market will create nothing but chaos.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using EO Forums mobile app


It will create nothing but chaos unless the big money boys, the government, and all insiders kindly bow out. I understand what your saying, but here's the rub......are we supposed to be that stupid to believe if Joe farmer to the north is selling beans, that Fred farmer to the south knows enough to grow corn? This country grew enough to feed the whole world until the government started all this stuff....and we could still do it.

Joe should be able to say in effect......"I'm going to grow corn this year and send 25 bushel an acre to Ethiopia via a private shipping company employing 250 people off the east coast shipping lane." He sets up the private contract, ships direct o the yard, and tracks it to those who need it. Can he do this? No, and why?

Because there is no such private shipping yard, the gov regs will kill him out of the gate, and the bureaucrats will eat the profits alive with the agency assigned to ensure there is no harmful ingredient in the corn. But if Monsanto label is on the corn (with all it's toxic ingredient) it's then OK to ship and everyone but Joe makes money while the corn probably will never reach it's target of 25 bushel an acre.

Regulations and programs are not there to help you.....it's to turn a profit for them. Turtle is right, it's all out in the open.
 
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Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
"How the money is raised for subsidies and food stamps may be the same, but that doesn't mean food stamp welfare and farm subsidies are the same."

And this was the point all along. It's welfare, (taken from me, and given to someone else)...
So then, you really and truly do think that road construction and the Armed Forces are welfare, because it's money taken from you and given to someone else. You're still stuck in the big picture of your own creation. Just because the money comes from taxes doesn't mean that each and every penny of it is spent on welfare. Welfare is literally people getting money for nothing, but road construction, the Armed Forces, and farm subsidies are not even remotely the same thing.

and the benefactors (now that small farmer has been all but eliminated) are insiders.
Well, that's a separate issue. You have no concept of the chicken and the egg, figuratively or literally. But the subsidies were there long before the corporations took over most of the farms. The benefactors have always been the growers of food, regardless of they are. Currently that just so happens to be corporate farms, and you don't like that.

And this conspiracy thing always being thrown around is tread wearing thin.
That's what imaginary big pictures, ignorance and misinformation gets you.

Once a theory is supported by even one fact.......it's no longer just a theory.
Depends on the theory and if the theory is solely dependent on one fact alone, but that's generally not correct. The Theory of Evolution, for example, is supported by facts out the wazoo, but it's still a theory. Same with the Theory of Gravity and the Theory of Relativity. When a fact disproves all or part of a theory, the theory isn't worthless, it's simply altered to accommodate the facts. Same thing happens when a fact supports all or part of a theory, the the theory gets stronger but it remains, nonetheless, a theory.

And the facts are in, as the OP eluded to.
You, like LRE, don't know what a fact is, apparently. Just because you believe something doesn't make it a fact. Like I said in Post #6 above, the article in the OP link is just chock full of misunderstandings and ignorance, and quite a few things that just aren't at all true. The author of the, LRE, you and untold thousands of others will remain all bent out of shape and ignorant unless the history of farm subsidies, what they are and how it all works, is studied and learned. I learned it in high school, and by having relatives who are farmers which receive subsidies, and can see directly how it works.

You believe Monsanto and ADM are evil, and well, they are. But they didn't cause any of this - they simply took advantage of it, along with a corrupt USDA who let them and got in bed with them. But if you snapped your fingers and Monsanto and ADM and all of the corporate farmers disappeared, farm subsidies would still be there, and for the exact same reasons they were created in the first place. And that reason aint' welfare.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
It will create nothing but chaos unless the big money boys, the government, and all insiders kindly bow out. I understand what your saying, but here's the rub......are we supposed to be that stupid to believe if Joe farmer to the north is selling beans, that Fred farmer to the south knows enough to grow corn?
It's not a case of stupid or smart, it's a case of economics. Corn and beans are both profitable because they're cheap to crop, but neither Joe nor Fred is gonna grow cotton or rice or anything else that doesn't produce high profits, regardless of its status as a commodity. Cotton, rice and everything else will be imported, at greatly inflated free market prices. After a year or two when corn and beans are no longer profitable, they turn to whatever has spiked in price in the meantime, like rice or cotton, assuming they aren't broke because the price of beans and corn dropped through the basement floor.

You really need to learn that a commodity is more than just something that gets traded on a stock exchange so evil people can profit from it. When you eat wheat you cannot tell whether it was grown by Fred or Joe, or Sergei in Belarus or Ling Ling in China or Larry in Canada. More of the Earth's surface is covered by wheat than any other crop. But wheat is behind corn and rice in production. That means you can produce more rice and corn per acre than you can wheat. That also means that, without world commodity price controls, market stability and reliable supply, both Fred and Joe would be growing corn or rice, not wheat. Wheat would become THE money crop and would cost several times more than it does now. Fred and Joe start growing wheat, like every other farmer on the planet trying to make a quick buck this season, and the price of corn, rice and beans then go up because the demand is far greater than the supply, while wheat plummets. If's a vicious circle with no stability in prices or supply whatsoever.

This country grew enough to feed the whole world until the government started all this stuff....and we could still do it.
That sounds good, and you may actually believe it, but it's not true. The Homestead Act of 1862 created conditions where farms went from 2 million in 1860 to 6 million in 1905, and we were poised to be able to feed the world then, but between the early 1890s through about 1910 many of those Plains Homesteaders (more than 50% of our agricultural production) were financially ruined because of tornadoes, blizzards, drought, hail, floods and grasshoppers which wiped out entire crops. Then, the period between 1910 and 1914 became the "Golden Era" of farming that organized groups of farmers, small family farmers each and every one of them, got together and demanded that the government use that period of time as the benchmark for the levels of production and prices they felt they should get, instead of the wildly varying production supply and prices they had been getting up to that point.

WWI certainly helped, since nearly every European farmer was in the army. European production was virtually non-existent, and US production went up, so did prices, everything was good. Right up until 2 years after the war when the European farmers got back in the game and American farmers nearly lost everything due to increased supply and severely depressed prices. Worse, hundreds of thousands of farmers had taken out mortgages and loans to buy out their neighbors' property, and new more mechanized equipment that allowed fewer farmers to farm more land, and they were now are unable to meet the financial burden. The cause was the collapse of land prices after the wartime bubble when farmers used high prices to buy up neighboring farms at high prices, saddling them with heavy debts.

This is all pre-farm subsidy. This is what you get with no controlled and reliable commodity supply. It was a disaster. That's when millions of farmers got together and demanded relief and stability, and it almost came in the manner of the McNary-Haugen Farm Relief Bil, but Coolidge vetoed that and instead went with a plant to modernize farming by bringing electricity to rural farms, more efficient equipment, better seeds and breeds, more rural education, and better business practices. On the heels of that came the Farm Security Act to raise farm incomes by raising the prices farmers received, which was achieved by reducing total farm output and controlling on a wide scale the production and supply of commodities. In 1933 the Agriculture Adjustment Act took this further to attempt to raise prices for commodities through artificial scarcity. In order to do that, they plowed up more than 10 million acres of growing cotton, 15 million acres of perfectly good crops were left to rot in the fields, and millions of baby pigs were destroyed and discarded. Less produced, the higher the wholesale price and the higher income to the farmer, and farm incomes increased significantly in the first three years as prices for commodities rose. However, food prices remained well below 1929 levels.

Because many farmers were paid to let fields remain barren (the old joke of the farmer who gets paid to not grow corn), the Supreme Court found that to be illegal welfare and the plan was replaced by having those farmers plant either soil-enriching crops that wouldn't go to commodities markets (like alfalfa) or other non-commodities crops like carrots, lettuce, tomatoes and cucumbers. These alternative crops created markets of their own and turned out to be at least somewhat profitable when combined with the subsidies. Without the subsidies, they would not be farmed. Federal regulation of agricultural production has been modified many times since then, but together with the large subsidies the basic philosophy of subsidizing farmers to control the supply and the commodities market continues today.

Joe should be able to say in effect......"I'm going to grow corn this year and send 25 bushel an acre to Ethiopia via a private shipping company employing 250 people off the east coast shipping lane." He sets up the private contract, ships direct o the yard, and tracks it to those who need it. Can he do this? No, and why?

Because there is no such private shipping yard, the gov regs will kill him out of the gate, and the bureaucrats will eat the profits alive with the agency assigned to ensure there is no harmful ingredient in the corn. But if Monsanto label is on the corn (with all it's toxic ingredient) it's then OK to ship and everyone but Joe makes money while the corn probably will never reach it's target of 25 bushel an acre.
Joe used to be able to do that, prior to WWII. It was a disaster. It rarely worked, and when it did Joe usually ended up with less money for his crops than if it went on the world market.

Regulations and programs are not there to help you.....it's to turn a profit for them. Turtle is right, it's all out in the open.
All you have to do is understand it, and more importantly, understand it completely, it's history and how it all works, and what happens when you eliminate the world commodity controls and subsidies, and just how quickly it all falls into chaos and disaster.
 

Maverick

Seasoned Expediter
USDA data collected in EWG’s 2013 farm subsidy database update — going live tomorrow –shows that Fincher collected a staggering $3.48 million in “our” money from 1999 to 2012. In 2012 alone, the congressman was cut a government check for a $70,000 direct payment. Direct payments are issued automatically, regardless of need, and go predominantly to the largest, most profitable farm operations in the country.

Fincher’s $70,000 farm subsidy haul in 2012 dwarfs the average 2012 SNAP benefit in Tennessee of $1,586.40, and it is nearly double of Tennessee’s median household income. After voting to cut SNAP by more than $20 billion, Fincher joined his colleagues to support a proposal to expand crop insurance subsidies by $9 billion over the next 10 years.


Goodness.......More to the point, and to skip the totally unnecessary histrionics, this person quotes The Bible no less when he's a huge hypocrite in the big picture. It doesn't take a normal person very long to figure this one out. Took less time than reading why a supposed need for assistance has been conjured up for these people. In short......

Anyone need the history lesson to figure out what's going on here?
 
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Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
Wow. To skip... the totally... unnecessary... histrionics...

You don't even want to understand it. You actually prefer the misinformed ignorance to the truth. Wow.

Why do I get the feeling that you're one of those people who are never happy unless they're angry at something.

Incidentally...

Histrionics, n,
A dramatic representation, theatricals, acting
Behavior or speech for effect, as insincere or exaggerated expression of an emotion; dramatics; operatics.
Deliberately affected or self-consciously emotional; overly dramatic, in behavior or speech

I do love a good irony.
 

Maverick

Seasoned Expediter
Wow. To skip... the totally... unnecessary... histrionics...

You don't even want to understand it. You actually prefer the misinformed ignorance to the truth. Wow.

Why do I get the feeling that you're one of those people who are never happy unless they're angry at something.

Incidentally...

Histrionics, n,
A dramatic representation, theatricals, acting
Behavior or speech for effect, as insincere or exaggerated expression of an emotion; dramatics; operatics.
Deliberately affected or self-consciously emotional; overly dramatic, in behavior or speech

I do love a good irony.

:rolleyes:
 
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