Child support claim rankles sperm donor to lesbian couple

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
I'm with Amonger on this one. Heterosexuals, as a collective group, they can reproduce. Homosexuals, as a collective group, A.K.A. they, cannot reproduce. In order for homosexuals to reproduce, they must go outside the scope of they by introducing a kludge (non-homosexuals) thereby becoming something other than they. Once the kludge is introduced the context is altered, they are no longer they, and cannot be accurately referred to as they as a collective group [of homosexuals].

"They" as a singular pronoun, including the paraphrased example provided above, is acceptable usage when talking about an individual in a gender non-specific manner, in the context of an individual, but you cannot use "they" as a collective pronoun and a singular pronoun at the same time in the same context. In the example, the context for "they" to be used as a singular pronoun was created in the first sentence with "The person", singular, and the use of "they" referred directly to that singular person. Since the context of they in this thread had already been established as meaning homosexuals as a group, and not a particular individual, the use of "they" as a singular pronoun to single out an individual from the group is incorrect and confusing.
 

mjmsprt40

Veteran Expediter
Owner/Operator
I'm with Amonger on this one. Heterosexuals, as a collective group, they can reproduce. Homosexuals, as a collective group, A.K.A. they, cannot reproduce. In order for homosexuals to reproduce, they must go outside the scope of they by introducing a kludge (non-homosexuals) thereby becoming something other than they. Once the kludge is introduced the context is altered, they are no longer they, and cannot be accurately referred to as they as a collective group [of homosexuals].

"They" as a singular pronoun, including the paraphrased example provided above, is acceptable usage when talking about an individual in a gender non-specific manner, in the context of an individual, but you cannot use "they" as a collective pronoun and a singular pronoun at the same time in the same context. In the example, the context for "they" to be used as a singular pronoun was created in the first sentence with "The person", singular, and the use of "they" referred directly to that singular person. Since the context of they in this thread had already been established as meaning homosexuals as a group, and not a particular individual, the use of "they" as a singular pronoun to single out an individual from the group is incorrect and confusing.

At least, that's what they want you to think.:rolleyes:

Once "they" get mention, the conspiracy starts-- because of course it's important that they control your thoughts.

OK. It's hard enough trying to guarantee a straight couple will stay married. I can't imagine wanting to put my economic well-being on the idea that a lesbian couple will stay together, and stay capable of supporting a child. The odds just don't favor it--- and Cheri, don't even think of trying to contest that. My opinion, the man in the story was a fool for getting wrapped up in this in the first place-- but if it weren't for fools, life would be a lot less interesting.
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
I'm with Amonger on this one.
No kiddin' ?

"They" as a singular pronoun, including the paraphrased example provided above, is acceptable usage when talking about an individual in a gender non-specific manner, in the context of an individual, but you cannot use "they" as a collective pronoun and a singular pronoun at the same time in the same context.
I didn't - if one read my original sentence where I said:

"The facts on the ground - a child conceived and born by one of the two individuals who I assume you are referring to ..."

... then it should be quite clear that I didn't use it as both a collective and singular pronoun ... since the above sentence immediately precedes the particular usage in question.

In the example, the context for "they" to be used as a singular pronoun was created in the first sentence with "The person", singular, and the use of "they" referred directly to that singular person.
Yup - in the exact same manner as my first sentence quoted above ...

It is quite clear (or it should be) that in my first sentence quoted above that I am talking about one particular individual (out of two possible)

Since the context of they in this thread had already been established as meaning homosexuals as a group, and not a particular individual, the use of "they" as a singular pronoun to single out an individual from the group is incorrect and confusing.
Well, I don't think that there is any immutable law of the universe (or English) which states that once a particular pronoun has been used in a particular way in an extended conversation by one of the participants, it must then for all time (or at least the duration of the thread) then be used by all other participants in exactly the same manner.

I provided the context necessary to understand the manner in which I used the word in question ... prior to my usage of it ... that is direct and immediate context.

Generally speaking, I'm not inclined to refer to someone else's words - other than the person speaking - to divine a speaker's intent ...

Most of the time, that seems to work better for me ... YMMV
 
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Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
Yes, you provided the context necessary to understand the manner in which you used the word, but in doing so introduced a brand new and improved context, and then used that new context to challenge Amonger's statement. In some circles, they call that a Straw Man Argument. ;)
 

piattteam

Active Expediter
I understand the resentment, but there's just a couple little problems:
First: no one can see the future. Circumstances change death, illness, and biggest current issue extended unemployment [or employment at low wages] can wipe out anyone's resources. It could have happened to any of us, too.[2 of the owners I once drove for have been totally bankrupted out by unexpected medical expenses in the last 2 years alone.
]Second: even in cases where the parents are/were incredibly unprepared for parenthood and the consequent expenses, [I know some of those people, too, sigh] are you ok with letting the kids go without enough to eat, decent clothing, a safe place to live, basic medical care? I'm not.

In response to your "First". Have those in this scenario sold ALL of their "toys". Computers, iPods, motorcycles, boats, second car, etc., etc., etc.? Or, as in most cases, have they decided they "need" these things AND money out of my pocket? If they are unemployed- almost EVERY area of the country we travel has plenty of "Now Hiring", "Help Wanted"......... signs. If they are on anything short of unemployment (had been working and lost their job- NOT quit!), anybody on government assistance should be FORCED to take an available job, or OFF the assistance they go.
Underemployed- get a part time job or two. I have been through some very tough times myself. For years and years, I held a full time job and THREE part time jobs at the same time. I have lived with a friend for a few months, to get on my feet. I have lived with family for a few months, to get on my feet. I DID NOT go into your pocket!

Did the 2 owners you once drove for have medical insurance? Too many opt for the fun things in life as opposed to the responsible purchases. I know a whole lot of "I can't afford health insurance" people who have a cell phone, computer, Play Station, motorcycle, boat, guns, vacation time-share condo, etc., etc., etc.. And no insurance- then we are to feel sorry for them when they have serious medical issues and can't carry on without our help. (And they usually keep all of the above mentioned items too!)

Churches, FAMILY, friends and those whom CHOSE to donate, use to be the pockets for the "assistance" people received. Now it is ROB from the responsible workers to give to the irresponsibles.
Having said this, I have donated on MANY occasions. To charity organizations, and to individuals on the street. But, these are donations I choose to make- not that I have been forced to make.

Those whom see nothing wrong with helping EVERYBODY should be allowed to. Those who DON'T want to help EVERYBODY should NOT be FORCED to!

Now, don't get me wrong, those who REALLY need help and CAN'T do for themselves do need help. NOT THOSE WHO DON'T WANT TO WORK!
 

AMonger

Veteran Expediter
Well, I don't think that there is any immutable law of the universe (or English) which states that once a particular pronoun has been used in a particular way in an extended conversation by one of the participants, it must then for all time (or at least the duration of the thread) then be used by all other participants in exactly the same manner.
I believe it was Turtle who first said it's unnatural because they can't reproduce. So that's where the general "they" was established.
 

Maverick

Seasoned Expediter
Having been raised in foster care myself and separated from siblings for duration of childhood......I can see Cheri' point, to a point. However, there is much difference between volunteering for foster care and taking in a child, than forcing others to accept another person's (in this case) total folly.

We seem to have enough parents in this world who want children for all the wrong reasons, and plenty of Mother's totally void of the wonderful gift bestowed upon them called nurturing. The natural Mom in this day has enough problems getting a handle on what nurturing means to a child......let alone one who shops for a father? The whole idea is upside down, back to front, and totally void of anything intended.

“Democracy will soon degenerate into an anarchy; such an anarchy that every man will do what is right in his own eyes and no man's life or property or reputation or liberty will be secure, and every one of these will soon mould itself into a system of subordination of all the moral virtues and intellectual abilities, all the powers of wealth, beauty, wit, and science, to the wanton pleasures, the capricious will, and the execrable cruelty of one or a very few.” - John Adams

The progressives have been regressing us for years. We suffer every time this agenda moves forward with it's end result......more hard working people paying for the deadbeats.
 

piattteam

Active Expediter
Mac, For a true foster parent, helping other people's children, my heart goes out, and my wallet opens.
Oops, I meant Mav.
 
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davekc

Senior Moderator
Staff member
Fleet Owner
With all the definitions of the word they I can't believe that no one has addressed the word they'd

Like they'd all been down yonder and back. ;)
 

cheri1122

Veteran Expediter
Driver
I understand the resentment, but there's just a couple little problems

In response to your "First". Have those in this scenario sold ALL of their "toys". Computers, iPods, motorcycles, boats, second car, etc., etc., etc.?

'Toys' is a [negative] value judgement that I wouldn't feel comfortable making - who should do that? One person's toy is another's need: for instance, a computer and cellphone are invaluable for finding and obtaining employment. An iPod may have been a gift, or prize - should that be taken from them? All kinds of thorny knots in that subject.....

Or, as in most cases, have they decided they "need" these things AND money out of my pocket? If they are unemployed- almost EVERY area of the country we travel has plenty of "Now Hiring", "Help Wanted"......... signs.

It's rather a stretch to assume that 'help wanted' signs equal a job that would lift a person out of dependency. I just read of one man who has worked at the same McDonald's for over 20 years [!] and is still filling in his dietary needs at the local food pantry almost every week. Why? Because first: the job requires 'flexible' scheduling, meaning the hours & days change every week. That keeps labor cost to a minimum, but prohibits workers from getting a second job, too. Second: the McD's is a franchise that has been bought & sold many times in those 20 years, and the first thing every new owner does is cut wages back to minimum, no matter how long the worker has been there. So this guy has over 20 years seniority and is still making minimum wage. What would you suggest he [and many thousands just like him] do to get himself off the merry go round of poverty?

If they are on anything short of unemployment (had been working and lost their job- NOT quit!), anybody on government assistance should be FORCED to take an available job, or OFF the assistance they go.
Underemployed- get a part time job or two. I have been through some very tough times myself. For years and years, I held a full time job and THREE part time jobs at the same time. I have lived with a friend for a few months, to get on my feet. I have lived with family for a few months, to get on my feet. I DID NOT go into your pocket!

I've been there, done that too: worked several jobs and lived with family or friends - I know how it works. But I also know that every situation is individual, and there are some who cannot do it. The flexible scheduling is becoming very popular among the fast food, retail, and other industries [like the guys at Blue Beacon, the aides at nursing homes, etc] that primarily hire low wage workers. And many have no family or friends who can accommodate their families [spouse & kids] because every one they know is in pretty much the same boat. It's easy to say they 'should' do this or that, but it assumes a LOT of facts that you don't have, and is therefore probably wildly inaccurate.

Did the 2 owners you once drove for have medical insurance? Too many opt for the fun things in life as opposed to the responsible purchases. I know a whole lot of "I can't afford health insurance" people who have a cell phone, computer, Play Station, motorcycle, boat, guns, vacation time-share condo, etc., etc., etc.. And no insurance- then we are to feel sorry for them when they have serious medical issues and can't carry on without our help. (And they usually keep all of the above mentioned items too!)

Both had insurance. One was diagnosed with cancer that spread, and has passed away, leaving his spouse with some major financial liabilities. The other lost her spouse to the same cause, struggled to keep the business going, then was seriously injured in an accident and lost what little she had left. Both were hard working people who suffered a lot, in spite of trying their best to do it the right way. And there are a whole lot more just like them - waaaay too many, in fact.

Churches, FAMILY, friends and those whom CHOSE to donate, use to be the pockets for the "assistance" people received. Now it is ROB from the responsible workers to give to the irresponsibles.

Again, that assumes everyone HAS family and/or friends who are able & willing to 'help' - [like Romney suggesting the solution to high college tuition is to 'borrow from your parents' :rolleyes:], and that they're just not smart enough to have thought of it. Fact is, most people associate with 'birds of a feather', so their families & friends aren't much better off either.
When charity was exclusively the church's domain, people who applied were required to accept the religion along with the food & shelter. For that reason, but even more because so many elderly had zero savings or family to rely on in their retirement, the government took over the majority of the financial assistance. It is society's problem to solve, and I agree that employment is a major part of the solution. So does every state that provides benefits, BTW - there is NO free lunch.

Having said this, I have donated on MANY occasions. To charity organizations, and to individuals on the street. But, these are donations I choose to make- not that I have been forced to make

The reality of taxes is that everyone is required to help pay for things they would rather not - we don't have much choice in how the money is spent. [I'd like to stop contributing to foreign aid for quite a few countries, myself!].

Those whom see nothing wrong with helping EVERYBODY should be allowed to. Those who DON'T want to help EVERYBODY should NOT be FORCED to!



Now, don't get me wrong, those who REALLY need help and CAN'T do for themselves do need help. NOT THOSE WHO DON'T WANT TO WORK!

I'd be willing to bet that for every person who doesn't want to work, there are a hundred who do - but cannot find a job that makes financial sense to accept. For a lot of reasons: wages, transportation, childcare being the greatest, it would not improve their situation. In fact, it would make it worse, by making it harder to search for a better job. In their shoes, [I speak from experience] I wouldn't take the job either - I'd keep looking for a job that won't put me even further behind.
Wouldn't you?
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
If there is legal work not taken, ALL handouts should be stopped. Life is tough, it is NOT the public's responsibility to cover other people's lives. No work where you live? MOVE to where it is.

One of the young men we were hunting with today works the oil rigs in ND. He is making MEGA BUCKS and was talking about just how hard it is to find people to work. He flies home once a month to visit his parents. There is GOOD paying work, take, or lose the TOTALLY UNEARNED FREEBIES! NO one is entitled to what they have not earned.
 

cheri1122

Veteran Expediter
Driver
And in all the shouting, no one acknowledges that #4 is the root of the problem, aided & abetted by #52, made worse by #30-32.
We can't fix the problem, if we don't know what it actually is - and it isn't lazy people who don't want to work. Just sayin.
 

davekc

Senior Moderator
Staff member
Fleet Owner
I'd be willing to bet that for every person who doesn't want to work, there are a hundred who do - but cannot find a job that makes financial sense to accept. For a lot of reasons: wages, transportation, childcare being the greatest, it would not improve their situation. In fact, it would make it worse, by making it harder to search for a better job. In their shoes, [I speak from experience] I wouldn't take the job either - I'd keep looking for a job that won't put me even further behind.
Wouldn't you?

Time for a reality check.
You are defending a guy that has been at McDonalds for 20 years. Out of that 20 years, you think he could have better himself? Good grief. Just can't defend that. Based on that assumption, everyone should resolve to the fact that some will never get ahead thus need to be supported for their lifetime. Really?
BTW...McDonalds offers free college tuiton for employees after 6 months.
The reality is as entitlements keep going up, it moves people off the employment rolls. Why work for 20k a year when you can get government to pay 30 or 40k a year. People want to work? A few but not many. Watch when unemployment runs out. They run and file disability. It is a way of life. The numbers don't lie.
Quite a few jobs out there actually. They just don't start at 50k a year for no experience.
I am all for helping people out, but this "no job pays enough" so everyone else must support me. All the money in the world isn't going to correct that.
Right now you have 119M in the private sector supporting 87M on entitlements. We are broke. It isn't going to last much longer. People better get a clue.
 
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layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Want to work? Bullfeathers. Look how hard it is for owners in here to find good drivers. There are unfilled jobs in the gas fields in PA and the oil and gas fields in the Dakotas. There are jobs on offshore oil rigs.

Far too many people are just plain old lazy. They don't want to go to the work, they want the work to come to them and then vote in politicians that pass laws and tax rates that drive business out.
 

cheri1122

Veteran Expediter
Driver
Time for a reality check.

Absolutely. :rolleyes:

You are defending a guy that has been at McDonalds for 20 years.
Defending? Nope, just describing, because he's not collecting benefits, he works for his living.
Out of that 20 years, you think he could have better himself?
I imagine if he could, he would. Maybe he's not the sharpest tool in the shed, but 20+ years employment in one place ought to be worth more than minimum wage, in my book.
Good grief. Just can't defend that. Based on that assumption, everyone should resolve to the fact that some will never get ahead thus need to be supported for their lifetime.Really?

He isn't asking to be 'supported' - good grief, has he not proven his ability to work already? He just isn't earning enough to be self sufficient - and after 20+ years in the same place, that is just criminal, IMO.

The reality is as entitlements keep going up, it moves people off the employment rolls. Why work for 20k a year when you can get government to pay 30 or 40k a year.

Uh - how many unemployed people rake in that level of assistance? When I got unemployment, it was about half what the job paid - it wasn't easy to cover the bills on that, and I was **** glad to get back to work. I'm pretty sure most of the recently unemployed [last few years] are the same.

People want to work? A few but not many. Watch when unemployment runs out. They run and file disability. It is a way of life. The numbers don't lie.

What numbers? How many people transition from unemployment to disability, exactly?

Quite a few jobs out there actually. They just don't start at 50k a year for no experience.

Right. They start near minimum wage [and return to it, if possible, as the 'franchise' method shows] with flexible scheduling and few or no benefits. In the past, one would hang on, building seniority, getting better wages & hours over time, but that's not true any more. The only ones getting better are those at the top - figures don't lie.

I am all for helping people out, but this "no job pays enough" so everyone else must support me. All the money in the world isn't going to correct that.
Allowing those at the top to determine what jobs pay [their own included] has led us to this point: workers on the bottom can't afford to live independently, while those at the top just keep increasing their own worth.

Right now you have 119M in the private sector supporting 87M on entitlements. We are broke.

Not all of us - just the ones who have to support the ludicrous compensation [not just private enterprise, but legislators too] and make up for the numerous tax avoidance strategies of the few who are increasing their wealth by major amounts every year.

It isn't going to last much longer. People better get a clue.

Yep, I agree.
 

davekc

Senior Moderator
Staff member
Fleet Owner
Want to work? Bullfeathers. Look how hard it is for owners in here to find good drivers. There are unfilled jobs in the gas fields in PA and the oil and gas fields in the Dakotas. There are jobs on offshore oil rigs.

Far too many people are just plain old lazy. They don't want to go to the work, they want the work to come to them and then vote in politicians that pass laws and tax rates that drive business out.

What amazes me is factoring in inflation and all those things, the employment picture isn't any different than it was 20 or 30 years ago. Gee.....a dirty secret.
The difference is back then, entitlements were much different, people worked two jobs, people made an effort to better their situation.
Today, it is who can give me something, for how long, and for how much. Not in all cases, but certainly the majority. Throwing money at it produces nothing. We have spent billions yet more are poor. Why is that? Simple. Follow the money. And no, it isn't millionaires and billionaires hoarding money because you just don't have enough of them.
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
You are right. People are basically lazy. We did work multiple jobs, get training, push for promotions, to get ahead.

McDonald's was not considered a career, unless one was looking to own their own store.

I don't see why we should be subsidizing people's lack of drive.
 

davekc

Senior Moderator
Staff member
Fleet Owner
Yep, I agree.

You have plenty going from unemployment to disability. A seach will bring up pages.
Here is one of many.
Report: Millions of jobless file for disability when unemployment benefits run out | Fox News

You are getting too wrapped up in the "rich". You don't have enough of them to support the poor even if you took every cent they had. The class warfare is a fallacy sold by the liberal media. They wanted 2 percent from the rich so they pay their "fair share". What joke. It pays the interest for eight days on the debt.

As for people raking in assistance, it is in the millions. Eveything from free healthcare, free food, free utilities, free cable, free computers, free birth control, adc, subsidized housing, school lunch program, subsidized childcare, free transportation the list just keeps going. And now we even have a government website that you can go on and see how many things/freebies you can get.
 
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