Rand McNally TND 700
- Thread starter bobwg
- Start date
I don't have the TND, but I have the same [seems like] problem with my new laptop [HP, Windows 7] not recognizing the Garmin that's plugged into the USB port. The 6 yr old Compaq [Windows XP] had no problem, but the new one won't transfer audio files to the Garmin, says it's not connected. 
I guess you need to contact Garmin to tell them what they are doing wrong too..
amazing..
- TND will not connect to a few newer laptops - Rands fault.
- Garmin has the same issue with newer computers - windows fault.
Did you not think that some of the newer laptops are failing to see anything less than a 2.0 USB full speed standard. But, of course we will get another 500 word breakdown on this.
Out of 6 users laptops, 3 are able to talk to the TND via a Power hub. The other 3 cannot.
13 testers can connect and even a few have the same brand, but not model number.
So, yes I can see where this is the TND's fault. - NOT.
Mark
amazing..
- TND will not connect to a few newer laptops - Rands fault.
- Garmin has the same issue with newer computers - windows fault.
Did you not think that some of the newer laptops are failing to see anything less than a 2.0 USB full speed standard. But, of course we will get another 500 word breakdown on this.
Out of 6 users laptops, 3 are able to talk to the TND via a Power hub. The other 3 cannot.
13 testers can connect and even a few have the same brand, but not model number.
So, yes I can see where this is the TND's fault. - NOT.
Mark
greg334
Veteran Expediter
Dude, I will keep this short.
The reason we keep poking the subject is we have yet heard these words "thank you, I will pass them on" and then hear from someone else who WORKS for RM with some feedback about our ideas.
You don't work for them but you are representing them which I don't get why RM's PR group is allowing that at all. They should be doing damage control but I can understand why they are not.
A few of us have gone down the road of product development and marketing, and this is a great case study on how not to crap on your customers. Some of us know what you are saying is partially true, there is an issue with laptops but can't buy into the BS line that the unit is designed right.
RM is showing contempt for the guy or gal who bought the unit in good faith and now is told that they will have to buy something else to make it work when it is advertised to work with a common set of specs that is printed on the box and in the flyer.
NO matter how you cut it there is a defect in the unit and what used to be common engineering and project management practices have been thrown out the window by this consistent BS line that something else is at fault.
The reason we keep poking the subject is we have yet heard these words "thank you, I will pass them on" and then hear from someone else who WORKS for RM with some feedback about our ideas.
You don't work for them but you are representing them which I don't get why RM's PR group is allowing that at all. They should be doing damage control but I can understand why they are not.
A few of us have gone down the road of product development and marketing, and this is a great case study on how not to crap on your customers. Some of us know what you are saying is partially true, there is an issue with laptops but can't buy into the BS line that the unit is designed right.
RM is showing contempt for the guy or gal who bought the unit in good faith and now is told that they will have to buy something else to make it work when it is advertised to work with a common set of specs that is printed on the box and in the flyer.
NO matter how you cut it there is a defect in the unit and what used to be common engineering and project management practices have been thrown out the window by this consistent BS line that something else is at fault.
ah... so you want your feathers stroked? Well thank you for your information... I take what you published and I DID forward the information up to Rand.
But is it not totally amazing that a Garmin will not connect also to a newer laptop?
You could contact Garmin R&D and let them know they have not designed their device correctly either. I am sure they will take your advice.
And again, I stress that I have not placed the blame on any computer manufacturer. You keep saying it. In fact I have never mentioned any Model number.
I am looking at it from a issue that a device cannot Talk to a computer, but, I am seeing an issue with newer models.
Rand has not shown any CONTEMPT towards any customers. In fact they have gone out of their way to help the customers.
It is easy to toss out words and stir up everyone. But, I am on the front line with the TND so to speak. You have never physically tested a live unit.
So, instead of throwing out essay's to fluff yourself up, why not look at it as a device as any other device that some models of newer laptops will not "talk" too, and it could be that their is a common thread between the two devices that is not correct.
Mark
But is it not totally amazing that a Garmin will not connect also to a newer laptop?
You could contact Garmin R&D and let them know they have not designed their device correctly either. I am sure they will take your advice.
And again, I stress that I have not placed the blame on any computer manufacturer. You keep saying it. In fact I have never mentioned any Model number.
I am looking at it from a issue that a device cannot Talk to a computer, but, I am seeing an issue with newer models.
Rand has not shown any CONTEMPT towards any customers. In fact they have gone out of their way to help the customers.
It is easy to toss out words and stir up everyone. But, I am on the front line with the TND so to speak. You have never physically tested a live unit.
So, instead of throwing out essay's to fluff yourself up, why not look at it as a device as any other device that some models of newer laptops will not "talk" too, and it could be that their is a common thread between the two devices that is not correct.
Mark
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There you go... again. How many Gamins do you know of that have the same issue? One. Count 'em, one. And you take that once instance and make the leap to a blanket statement of fact with no qualifications whatsoever. That's just irresponsible. And earlier about the Garmin you stated. "Cheri, that's BIG indication that the problem likely lies with Win7." Well, no, no it's not. It's just one indication that it might be, and it's a SMALL indication at that. To go beyond that requires massive assumption. It's clear that you're scrounging for any little crumb you can find to support your theory, and favoring whatever you can find over data that doesn't support your theory. You've coming off like a Creationist who devises "Creation Science" to refute actual science, or like a Birther who finds a un-dotted "i" in a newspaper's birth announcement and says it proves Obama was born in downtown Kenya instead of downtown Hawaii.
The answer is no. Windows 7 has some problems with USB ports, but it happens on both newer and older computers running Windows 7. For example, I've got an older laptop running Windows 7, and I have a USB port that has problems, but the problems are not mA related nor are they less-than full-speed related. It sees my Garmin and Aircard just fine, which are both high-power and high speed devises, but won't see a Bluetooth dongle or a wireless mouse receiver, which are both low-power, low-speed devices. Now what ya gonna do? My personal computer blows your entire theory out of the water.
Which proves precisely nothing.
Again, proof of nothing.
It doesn't prove it's NOT TND's fault, either, yet that's where you went with it.
That's because when you say that manufacturers have turned down the mA output of their USB ports on newer computers, if you mentioned a brand and model, then you'd have to back it up with the truth instead of rank speculation.
There are two separate issues here, one being power management and internal switching of the TND, and with Windows 7 in how it assigns and distributes IRQ and IO addresses. And either or both issues can manifest themselves depending on various combinations of used USB ports, an nVidia chipset, and the Intel ICH8 family PCI and 828xx bridge & firmware hub drivers.
14Wheeler
Seasoned Expediter
Prove it ?? Ya gotta be kidding......
I'd like to see you (prove it) backup your statements, that indicate you've been in physical possession of RM unit with the
same model number within this threads discussion.
A simple digi pic will suffice.....
got one of those ?
14Wheeler
Seasoned Expediter
Prove it ?? Ya gotta be kidding......
After second thought.... I ain't even interested in hearing another concocted story about all that stuff you've got sitten on the shelf...out in the garage....or at yer daddy's place. [and on and on and on and on and on]The piles gotten soooo deep now, doubt i'd believe you got two ears.
Maybe it's just me....???? Maybe i'm the only one going, HUH ??
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Turtle, that was me that said it's a big indication of the problem likely being Win7. I admit it's not a sure sign, but it, and rumors of other USB problems in Win7 should warrant some scrutiny of the OS. It's not like Microsoft has never done something like this to us before.
Admittedly, much more testing would need to be done before anyone could say for sure it's Win7, and that that doesn't rule out that there might still be some flaws with RM. But, a similar problem with different hardware defiantly throws up a big flag. Yes, Cheri's garmin issue could be an isolated incident, but it also could be "tip of the iceberg".
This is all speculation though, and it will be interesting to hear solution(s).
Admittedly, much more testing would need to be done before anyone could say for sure it's Win7, and that that doesn't rule out that there might still be some flaws with RM. But, a similar problem with different hardware defiantly throws up a big flag. Yes, Cheri's garmin issue could be an isolated incident, but it also could be "tip of the iceberg".
This is all speculation though, and it will be interesting to hear solution(s).
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My apologies to Mark. That's what I get for not paying better attention to who posted it, rather than to what was posted.
There is a problem with the TND 700, of that I know for a fact. But like I said earlier, I'm still inclined to place the blame on this particular problem squarely on Windows 7. My issue with Mark here has been with him stating pure assumptions, some of them clearly based on ignorance, as being reproducible fact, when none exists. Grasping at straws for what the problem might be, and then stating that as being the cause, chaps my beta-testing butt. I've been beta testing and hardware trouble-shooting since 1985 (wow, I just realize I'm getting old), and I know the dos and don'ts of testing.
Doesn't work when plugged into the native USB port, but it will plugged into a powered hub, therefore it's a power issue because the manufacturers have scaled back power output to the USB port. What a load of crap on so many levels. And then when stuff like that is questioned, you get slapped in the face with, "But, but, but, I'm the Lead Beta Tester! How dare you question me?!?!"
It reeks of someone who is more interested in protecting the reputation of the product he loves and is loyal to, rather than someone who is most interested in tracking down the actual cause.
Be that as it may, knowing intimately the problems that Windows 7 (16 and 32 bit both) have with USB port management, despite the inherent problem that the TND 700 has, I think this one is primarily, if not totally, a Windows 7 issue, and not a Rand McNally issue.
I've got a 3 year old laptop that is now running the 16-bit version of Windows 7. Before I upgraded, all of my USB devices worked just fine. After the upgrade, lots of weird USB port behavior. Like, I've got a couple of external hard drives, that when plugged in to two particular USB ports on a powered hub, neither will work. Plug them into different ports on the same hub and they work just fine. Plug something else into one of the non-working ports, and it works just fine.
A lot of it has to do with the way the OS assigns IRQ addresses to the USB ports, then to the hubs, and then again to the ports on each hub, plus the order that the IO addresses are assigned. In many cases, switching around which ports stuff is plugged into makes all the difference, because each port gets "turned on" in a different order, and that can be the difference between a device being see and not seen. If something won't work natively, then a multi-port hub may solve the problem entirely, simply because of it having an IO address that's in a different part of the stack. That's the direction I'd be point people at.
There is a problem with the TND 700, of that I know for a fact. But like I said earlier, I'm still inclined to place the blame on this particular problem squarely on Windows 7. My issue with Mark here has been with him stating pure assumptions, some of them clearly based on ignorance, as being reproducible fact, when none exists. Grasping at straws for what the problem might be, and then stating that as being the cause, chaps my beta-testing butt. I've been beta testing and hardware trouble-shooting since 1985 (wow, I just realize I'm getting old), and I know the dos and don'ts of testing.
Doesn't work when plugged into the native USB port, but it will plugged into a powered hub, therefore it's a power issue because the manufacturers have scaled back power output to the USB port. What a load of crap on so many levels. And then when stuff like that is questioned, you get slapped in the face with, "But, but, but, I'm the Lead Beta Tester! How dare you question me?!?!"
It reeks of someone who is more interested in protecting the reputation of the product he loves and is loyal to, rather than someone who is most interested in tracking down the actual cause.
Be that as it may, knowing intimately the problems that Windows 7 (16 and 32 bit both) have with USB port management, despite the inherent problem that the TND 700 has, I think this one is primarily, if not totally, a Windows 7 issue, and not a Rand McNally issue.
I've got a 3 year old laptop that is now running the 16-bit version of Windows 7. Before I upgraded, all of my USB devices worked just fine. After the upgrade, lots of weird USB port behavior. Like, I've got a couple of external hard drives, that when plugged in to two particular USB ports on a powered hub, neither will work. Plug them into different ports on the same hub and they work just fine. Plug something else into one of the non-working ports, and it works just fine.
A lot of it has to do with the way the OS assigns IRQ addresses to the USB ports, then to the hubs, and then again to the ports on each hub, plus the order that the IO addresses are assigned. In many cases, switching around which ports stuff is plugged into makes all the difference, because each port gets "turned on" in a different order, and that can be the difference between a device being see and not seen. If something won't work natively, then a multi-port hub may solve the problem entirely, simply because of it having an IO address that's in a different part of the stack. That's the direction I'd be point people at.
I want to make one thing clear, I too am a tester for RM. Maybe not the best one, I am not that computer literate and I am sure that I have driven Mark crazy from time to time.
When I sold these devices I had a lot of customer interaction. At NO TIME was I allowed to "fix" a customers device. They always had to be returned to the company for work.
I can tell you FOR A FACT that Mark has given me instructions on how to "assist" Rand customers in the field. THAT IS customer service.
The Rand units are tools, just like the Garmin, Cobra's and many others. NONE of them are PERFECT. They all need "help" in one way or another.
No company, Lowrance, Garmin, Megellian, that I was ever involved with has shown me their willingness to assist customers like Rand has shown. Are they perfect? No. Is any company? No. In my limited experience they go further to help customers than any I have ever been associated with.
Is that worth anything to anyone here? Who knows? Does anyone believe what I say? Who cares? I am just passing along what I know to be true.
When I sold these devices I had a lot of customer interaction. At NO TIME was I allowed to "fix" a customers device. They always had to be returned to the company for work.
I can tell you FOR A FACT that Mark has given me instructions on how to "assist" Rand customers in the field. THAT IS customer service.
The Rand units are tools, just like the Garmin, Cobra's and many others. NONE of them are PERFECT. They all need "help" in one way or another.
No company, Lowrance, Garmin, Megellian, that I was ever involved with has shown me their willingness to assist customers like Rand has shown. Are they perfect? No. Is any company? No. In my limited experience they go further to help customers than any I have ever been associated with.
Is that worth anything to anyone here? Who knows? Does anyone believe what I say? Who cares? I am just passing along what I know to be true.
Nuvi 350, bought particularly for the Audible compatibility - far as I know, it's the only GPS so equipped.
I think I'll try the multi port hub - switching ports doesn't work.
Aside: who designed the USB ports so close together that 2 items won't fit side by side?!
Well thank you for stating such...
USB port not regconised - Microsoft TechNet Search
As for the mA issue, I may have not worded it to what I meant. I felt that the full mA of the port was not being allowed. The port can draw 500mA, but when first connected it will only draw 100mA, then the device has to request more. I felt that since a USB power hub was connected which will provide 500mA from the get-go that it was leading to a current draw issue.
But, since the USB power Hub is not "fixing" all the issues, then it could be a Win7 issue. This issue so far as we can tell is only with 64bit Win7 computers on certain models.
I am stating no assumptions as to the root cause. I do not hold myself up on a pedestal at all. I have been troubleshooting since 1974 and yes I know how to gather all the information and try to pin-point the problem.
What everyone was so quick to jump the gun and say it was Rand's problem. Now that Garmin has come to light the tune is now changing.
I spend numerous hours working with Beta Testers and users daily. I do believe this is customer support.
Now, I did come accross one "fix" in the link above that may resolve one customers issue.
I doubt if their is one quick down and dirty fix for all the laptops in question, but their may be.
Mark
USB port not regconised - Microsoft TechNet Search
As for the mA issue, I may have not worded it to what I meant. I felt that the full mA of the port was not being allowed. The port can draw 500mA, but when first connected it will only draw 100mA, then the device has to request more. I felt that since a USB power hub was connected which will provide 500mA from the get-go that it was leading to a current draw issue.
But, since the USB power Hub is not "fixing" all the issues, then it could be a Win7 issue. This issue so far as we can tell is only with 64bit Win7 computers on certain models.
I am stating no assumptions as to the root cause. I do not hold myself up on a pedestal at all. I have been troubleshooting since 1974 and yes I know how to gather all the information and try to pin-point the problem.
What everyone was so quick to jump the gun and say it was Rand's problem. Now that Garmin has come to light the tune is now changing.
I spend numerous hours working with Beta Testers and users daily. I do believe this is customer support.
Now, I did come accross one "fix" in the link above that may resolve one customers issue.
I doubt if their is one quick down and dirty fix for all the laptops in question, but their may be.
Mark
14Wheeler
Seasoned Expediter
And eventually, those 100's -1000's of devices will have firmware flashed or software patches released to fix this whole mess up.
till then.......I'd just smack Bill ......
"They put a cap on what the USB port will be allowed to draw."
Yup, very badly worded, that one was.
"In testing the USB Power Hubs we are finding they are limiting the mA output below what the TND 700 needs."
That one, too.
Please, the quotes above are an assumption as to the root cause, and little information was gathered to pinpoint such a conclusion.
Not my tune. My tune started out, and continues to be, to question some of the misinformation that stands as a barrier in locating the actual cause. My second post in this thread started to point things at the computer and not at the TND. And I still think that's where the problem lies.