Our Government an instigator of terror activities?

Pilgrim

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Pilgrim: I expect every candidate to have, and express, religious beliefs. I don't need to agree with them, to decide how I feel they'd perform as POTUS, because it isn't [or shouldn't be] part of the job.
When a candidate says he believes people with scientific, empirical, fact based decision training, I am behind him on that, 100%.
When he then says he "doesn't believe in evolution", which has been validated and affirmed repeatedly, and never once discredited, I am amazed. Worse, his reason has nothing to do with faulty science, or anything reasonable, but simply because he thinks human beings are too complicated to have evolved. As if science has learned everything we will ever know, and there are no further discoveries to be made: case closed.
One who rejects the facts that don't support his viewpoint [for which there are not, and never have been, any facts whatsoever in support of] is simply not leadership material.
Your response does not address that little problem at all.
It does, but the above post would suggest that you just don't get it. Carson's views on evolution were voiced in the context of his religious beliefs, and the majority of religious beliefs are based on FAITH - not proven facts or the scientific method. Devout Christians believe in the Virgin Birth and that Christ was the Son of God. Should they all be disqualified as legitimate Chief Executives of the country because of these fundamental beliefs based on FAITH? This standard never seemed to bother the liberals who voted for Jimmy Carter, a devout Southern Baptist who was probably the most overtly religious POTUS in the country's history. Not only did he attend church at every opportunity, but he also did missionary work and taught Sunday school in GA whenever possible.

The fact is, most presidents have made it a point not to let their religious beliefs influence their policy decisions in the Oval Office. Voters should cast their ballots based on how the candidate will conduct the country's policy as Chief Executive, so long as their religious beliefs don't adversely influence their decisions or their conduct in office. To disqualify a candidate due to an irrelevant aspect of his religious beliefs is narrow-minded to say the least. No doubt if Carson officially declares his candidacy - which I don't think he will - some pundit or opposing candidate will bring up the subject of his religion and give him the chance to address the issue directly.
 

cheri1122

Veteran Expediter
Driver
Eureka! The liberals have already started on the talking points to use against Carson. Imagine a possible candidate for POTUS expressing an opinion related to his religious beliefs. Considering he's a 7th Day Adventist his views on evolution should come as no surprise, but how do they relate to his ability to effectively serve as POTUS? What are Obama's views on evolution? Does he even have any religious convictions at all? Carson also comes from that tainted group - "the Conservative Rich" - who have become successful by their own hard work and therefore are automatically unfit to lead the common people. Of course only the "Liberal Rich" like Hillary Clinton or Elizabeth Warren posses this unique ability to connect and empathize with the working class - whose standard of living has declined over the past six years.

Your response to the absolutely incompatible logic of Carson was interesting. First, describe the criticism as "liberal talking points", which implies something like advertising rhetoric: not meant to be taken seriously. Then, pretend the criticism was about his religious views, which it absolutely was not .[His religious views served to point out the cognitive disconnect in his thinking, but they were otherwise unimportant.] That allows the questioning of Obama's religious views, which are equally irrelevant.
Finally, whine about how the "conservative rich [those who became wealthy by their own hard work] are 'tainted, and are automatically unfit to lead the common people". Hey: they can afford the best violins for their pity parties, so I don't feel sorry for them at all. Nor do I feel any sympathy for Hilary Clinton. Elizabethe Warren, however, is something else: a politician who seems to want to work for the people, rather than the wealthy contributors to campaigns of wealthy legislators. I'm pretty sure that's the kind of legislator the Founding Fathers had in mind, and I support her 100%.
In all of that, say nothing whatsoever in regard to the actual point: the cognitive disconnect I cited. Because: conservative.

PS The working class standard of living has declined for decades - it's just declined much faster the past six years. About as long as conservatives have become much more aggressive. Coincidence?
 

cheri1122

Veteran Expediter
Driver
Pilgrim: this is what YOU don't get: anyone who says "I don't believe in evolution" is one who can deny fact in favor of their preferred fiction, and I would never vote for such a person to make critical decisions that affect my life.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
It does, but the above post would suggest that you just don't get it. Carson's views on evolution were voiced in the context of his religious beliefs, and the majority of religious beliefs are based on FAITH - not proven facts or the scientific method. Devout Christians believe in the Virgin Birth and that Christ was the Son of God. Should they all be disqualified as legitimate Chief Executives of the country because of these fundamental beliefs based on FAITH? This standard never seemed to bother the liberals who voted for Jimmy Carter, a devout Southern Baptist who was probably the most overtly religious POTUS in the country's history. Not only did he attend church at every opportunity, but he also did missionary work and taught Sunday school in GA whenever possible.
Amazingly, you have created yet another straw man logical fallacy, beaten it down, and declared victory, all without addressing the issue at hand. Nobody said anyone should be de-legitimized for the position of POTUS because they have religious beliefs. The issue at hand is whether someone dismisses fact in deference to fantasy (or FAITH, if you prefer). It's whether someone prefers fact, or they prefer not-fact.

To my knowledge, science has never attempted to address the issue of the Virgin Birth nor whether Christ was the Son of God, so on either of those issues there are no facts to dismiss in favor of faith. Jimmy Carter doing missionary work and teaching Sunday School has exactly zero to do with dismissing fact for fantasy, particularly since Jimmy Carter believes in evolution and does not see it as in any way being contradictory to his devout Southern Baptistness. Unlike Carson, Carter is not now nor has he ever been a Young-Earth Fundamentalist who believes the Bible to be both literal and infallible and who will set aside the scientific facts because of his beliefs. Carter doesn't believe the Bible is a science book any more than he believes religion and philosophy can be obtained from science books. Carson does.

To disqualify a candidate due to an irrelevant aspect of his religious beliefs is narrow-minded to say the least.
You'd be right, if dismissing evolution, the age of the Earth and in taking the Bible's words literally were an irrelevant aspect of his religious beliefs. But these are part of the 28 Fundamental Beliefs of the Seventh Day Adventist. And they cannot be compromised in any way for any reason. This is not a 'boxers or briefs?' type of question, it's a straight-up'fact or fiction?' question.

No doubt if Carson officially declares his candidacy - which I don't think he will - some pundit or opposing candidate will bring up the subject of his religion and give him the chance to address the issue directly.
And he'll likely walk back or deflect some of these issues, much like Rick Santorum (a friend of Carson's, incidentally) had to do. Carson is already fairly adept at having to do so. I particularly liked the one where he was interviewed live on Hannity, said some things, then later said his comments were, get this, “completely taken out of context and completely misunderstood.” A live, unedited interview, completely taken out of context. Okaaaay. It appears that not only is Carson already "tainted by politics," he's rather good at it.
 

Pilgrim

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
To my knowledge, science has never attempted to address the issue of the Virgin Birth...
FYI: Could A Virgin Birth Ever Happen? | Popular Science

The issue at hand is whether someone dismisses fact in deference to fantasy (or FAITH, if you prefer). It's whether someone prefers fact, or they prefer not-fact.
It's pretty common in most religions to dismiss "facts" in favor of not-facts/faith/fantasy or whatever you want to call it. But just because people apply these standards within the realm of their religious beliefs doesn't mean they apply the same standards to prefer "not-fact" to fact in making business or political decisions that are totally unrelated to their religious practices. Most chief executives have the ability to compartmentalize. For example if Carson declared the Holocaust was a myth despite all known facts to the contrary, then we would have reason to question his ability to make logical and rational decisions. I'll also agree should he announce that as POTUS he would be MIA on Saturdays due to his religious requirements, the public in general would reject him as a serious candidate.

We still don't know much about Dr. Carson, and I haven't followed every single word he's spoken or written about his political positions or where he stands on critical current issues. If there are any examples in these areas of him favoring "non-fact" over fact in his political decision-making processes, let's see them.
 
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Pilgrim

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Pilgrim: this is what YOU don't get: anyone who says "I don't believe in evolution" is one who can deny fact in favor of their preferred fiction, and I would never vote for such a person to make critical decisions that affect my life.
But I'll bet you voted for Al Gore - the champion of the man-made global warming hoax, and claimed to have invented the internet. I'll also bet you voted for the guy who said "If you like your health care plan, you'll be able to keep your health care plan - period", among other promises based on fantasy:

10 Broken Obamacare Promises

Millions of voters cast their ballots to re-elect Obama based on their faith in the coming benefits of ObamaCare - the bill Congress had to pass to see what was in it.:rolleyes:
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
And the last sentence of the article succinctly sums it up.

It's pretty common in most religions to dismiss "facts" in favor of not-facts/faith/fantasy or whatever you want to call it.
Yes, it's called science illiteracy, regardless of whether you use quotes around "facts" or not. People will dismiss scientific fact that contradicts their belief because they don't understand the science, but they certainly understand their belief.

But just because people apply these standards within the realm of their religious beliefs doesn't mean they apply the same standards to prefer "not-fact" to fact in making business or political decisions that are totally unrelated to their religious practices.
Well, it doesn't necessarily mean that, but it often does. Regardless of the realm, beliefs are beliefs and facts are facts, and when you dismiss facts because they don't corroborate your beliefs, your ability to think logically, rationally and critically gets called into serious question.

Most chief executives have the ability to compartmentalize. For example if Carson declared the Holocaust was a myth despite all known facts to the contrary, then we would have reason to question his ability to make logical and rational decisions.
What's the difference between the myth of the Holocaust and the myth of Evolution? Does the dismissal of one set of facts get a pass because the belief is rooted in religion, where dismissing the other set of facts does not because they are rooted in living human memory? Just because one's strongly held beliefs are in the context of religion doesn't make the beliefs more valid than strongly held beliefs in other contexts. When facts contradict a belief, the only logical, rational, intelligent, sane thing you can do is set aside or alter the belief so that it fits with reality. Religions have been doing that very thing for centuries, actually. Science makes a discovery, religion dismisses it, it later becomes scientific fact, dogma gets altered. Some people can't handle it.

I'll also agree should he announce that as POTUS he would be MIA on Saturdays due to his religious requirements, the public in general would reject him as a serious candidate.
And if they didn't initially, the media would certainly ensure it. There are a lot of jobs you can have as a Seventh Day Adventist, but I'm not sure POTUS is one of them. The only exception to performing work on the Sabbath is work directly related to saving lives (doctors, nurses, paramedics, etc.), since Jesus healed the sick on the Sabbath. But no cleaning up or doing paperwork or anything else. Still, he could limit his golf outings to Saturdays and still perform in a 6 day week. It's the Young-Earth Creationism in the face of facts that is more problematic, as even mainstream Christianity views that as the radical fringe.

We still don't know much about Dr. Carson, and I haven't followed every single word he's spoken or written about his political positions or where he stands on critical current issues. If there are any examples in these areas of him favoring "non-fact" over fact in his political decision-making processes, let's see them.
That's a pretty narrow path to walk considering he's never held political office and thus we have no resume of his political decision-making process. We know many of his political positions, but the decision-making process that got his there remains a mystery subject only to to speculation. However, as to be expected from anyone with strong beliefs, you can certainly see the influence of his religion on some of his decisions.

However, Seventh Dayers don't drink or smoke and he doesn't think anyone else should, either. He broached the idea of a federal law requiring a 0.00% BAC in order to drive, but later amended it to 0.02% to account for false positives. Truck drivers are allowed 0.04%. He says it will reduce drunk driving because anything higher you are impaired, but 0.00 has long been the position of Seventh Day Adventists. The science says you are unimpaired at 0.6, but his religion says otherwise.

He flatly states that America, just like Rome, will fall because of the immoral behavior of its citizens, despite the fact that Rome fell because of Christianity, lead poisoning, monetary troubles, a military stretched too thin, and incompetence by politicians.

He believes war to defend religion is ethical, just and holy (unless your religion is Islam). Ironically, he thinks all radical elements of all religions should be confronted with brute force (by "all" I'm assuming he exempts the radical Seventh Day Adventists).

He thinks deporting illegal aliens is immoral, that they should be welcomed with Guest Worker status, because that's the moral thing to do.

He wants to end the "war on God."

He will not run for president, however, "God may call me" to do so.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
But I'll bet you voted for Al Gore - the champion of the man-made global warming hoax, and claimed to have invented the internet.
See how easy it is to favor fantasy over fact, especially when the fantasy is so closely held that it becomes a virtual religiosity? There was no controversy about Global Warming before Al Gore. Republicans and Democrats alike worked on environmental issues that would reduce the impact of Global Warming. The deniers were few and far between, and they were not aligned by a political ideology. The worldwide consensus matched the data that Global Warming was and is indeed happening. The scientific fact of it is quite irrefutable. The hoax was man-made alright, but it was made by American Republicans who couldn't find it within themselves to accept facts that were uttered by Al Gore. It is the American Republicans who seized it and politicized it. And it is the American Republicans that are virtually alone in the world (yes, I can find exceptions to that, too, but it doesn't change the fact) in their dissent about Global Warming. And it was ironically that very politicization by American Republicans that has allowed the opposite political spectrum (including the United Nations, et al) to politically legitimize the notion of the Global Warming being all or nearly all human-caused (something that is NOT scientifically proven).

Al Gore never claimed to have invented the Internet. Not even once.

I'll also bet you voted for the guy who said "If you like your health care plan, you'll be able to keep your health care plan - period", among other promises based on fantasy:

10 Broken Obamacare Promises

Millions of voters cast their ballots to re-elect Obama based on their faith in the coming benefits of ObamaCare - the bill Congress had to pass to see what was in it.:rolleyes:
An excellent example of people dismissing facts in favor of their faith in fantasy.
 

cheri1122

Veteran Expediter
Driver
What ^he^ said.
As for the "If you like your health care plan, you can keep your health care plan", that turned out to be wrong, but was it a deliberate lie? Of course you think so, but I disagree. I think it was Obama's intent, but it was the insurance companies actual decision, and he should never have made a promise they would have to keep. It was a mistake, absolutely - but so was the refusal to permit the government to negotiate with drug companies for lower prices, and why aren't you [or anyone] throwing a hissy fit over that? That's a mistake that costs a LOT of money.
And nearly all of those "10 Broken Obamacare Promises" cited are things that are directly within the insurance companies' control, but private enterprise is a sacred cow. It's far more satisfying to blame Obama.
 

skyraider

Veteran Expediter
US Navy
At the end of the day, it really boils down to this:

Horse manure is sometimes called buns, road apples, horse pucky, horse chips, horse hooey and horse apples.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
What ^he^ said.
As for the "If you like your health care plan, you can keep your health care plan", that turned out to be wrong, but was it a deliberate lie? Of course you think so, but I disagree. I think it was Obama's intent, but it was the insurance companies actual decision, and he should never have made a promise they would have to keep.
It was, absolutely, a deliberate lie, and it was absolutely not the insurance companies' actual decision. Second first, the law requires certain things to be covered on all plans (ti help spread the cost) whether you need it or not. One example of that is maternity care. If your healthcare plan didn't have maternity care, you couldn't keep that plan, you had to get a different plan that complied with the law. That was not the insurance companies' decision. And the people who wrote the legislation, including Obama, knew it. So when Obama said you can keep your plan, he knew full well that millions couldn't. And even after HHS Secretary Kathlene Sebelius announced the grandfathering rules that most of the grandfathered plans would go away (because the rules were written so strict than few if any would qualify), for 3 years Obama pretended she didn't say that and continued his "if you like your plan you can keep you plan" mantra.

In fact, the estimated number of people who wouldn't be able to keep their plans was buried right there in the regulations all along. Because of normal turnover in the individual insurance market, “40 to 67 percent” of customers will not be able to keep their policy. And because many policies will have been changed since the key date, “the percentage of individual market policies losing grandfather status in a given year exceeds the 40 to 67 percent range.”

Then there's the videos of one of the chief architects if the legislation, Jonathan Gruber, gleefully admitting that the legislation passed because of the "stupidity" of the American voter and the deliberate "lack of transparency" in presenting the legislation to the public. He said they knew 100 percent that the bill couldn't get passed if they were honest and transparent about it, but that's OK because the law got passed, and he'd "rather have the law than not have it."

But finally, if there is any doubt that it was a deliberate lie, we got something that you don't get every day, and it made headlines when it happened, a straight up apology from the President on national TV for lying about it.

Lest you still think it wasn't deliberate, enjoy this:
Lie of the Year: 'If you like your health care plan, you can keep it' | PolitiFact.org

It was a mistake, absolutely - but so was the refusal to permit the government to negotiate with drug companies for lower prices, and why aren't you [or anyone] throwing a hissy fit over that? That's a mistake that costs a LOT of money.
Nobody is throwing a hissy fit over it, at least here in this context, because it's a completely different issue than the "if you like your plan you can keep it" lie. Plus. it's something that has been well know since before the bill even passed. In addition, Americans have known for decades that we pay the highest in the world for prescription medications, so there's no point in throwing a hissy fit over it at this late date. We've also known since before the bill was passed that it removes the regulated ceiling cap on how high insurance companies can raise premiums, because that was a condition of insurance companies being unable to deny coverage for preexisting conditions.

And nearly all of those "10 Broken Obamacare Promises" cited are things that are directly within the insurance companies' control, but private enterprise is a sacred cow. It's far more satisfying to blame Obama.
If by "nearly all" you mean "not a single one" then you're correct. Every one of those broken promises are the direct result of the Obamacare legislation itself, not some random decisions by insurance companies. But the insurance companies did in fact have some control, as they had a seat at the table where the legislation was written. That's why the legislation was written the way it was written to benefit the insurance companies. If you've had any money in the stock market the last 3 or 4 years you haven't done particularly well, unless your money has been in health insurance companies. Coincidence? Not a chance. There's yer sacred cow right there. The reason it's far more satisfying to blame Obama is because he's the one to blame, it's his legislation, he owns it, he lied to get it passed, and he's the guilty party.
 
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LDB

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
If you like your insurance... Defending this lie might be reasonable if all bills were posted for 72 hours or 5 days or whatever that particular lie was had been followed through, if there was a consistent pattern of making this the most transparent administration in the history of the nation, if making this the dawn of "post-racial" America and on and on and on. It's understandable he still gets defended though, with such powerful koolaid.
 

Pilgrim

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
See how easy it is to favor fantasy over fact, especially when the fantasy is so closely held that it becomes a virtual religiosity? There was no controversy about Global Warming before Al Gore. Republicans and Democrats alike worked on environmental issues that would reduce the impact of Global Warming. The deniers were few and far between, and they were not aligned by a political ideology. The worldwide consensus matched the data that Global Warming was and is indeed happening. The scientific fact of it is quite irrefutable. The hoax was man-made alright, but it was made by American Republicans who couldn't find it within themselves to accept facts that were uttered by Al Gore.
There have been skeptics to man-made global warming since the beginning of climate study. But to claim that American Republicans are the source of global warming denial is total BS. That initiative started with skeptical scientists early on, and the tobacco and oil industries who would have been effected by govt regulations which would have severely impacted their profit margin. They and the Republicans couldn't sit by idly without challenging some of Gore's outrageous claims such as this one made in 2007 as he accepted his Nobel Peace Prize:

“The North Polar ice cap is falling off a cliff. It could be completely gone in summer in as little as seven years. Seven years from now".


The North Polar ice cap has actually increased in size since then. There's plenty of evidence to refute Gore's claims of a global warming crisis caused by man, but that a subject for another thread. The point is that this guy spouts off a lot of stuff that is contrary to established facts, lots of people buy what he's selling, and he's made a fortune with his dog and pony show.
Al Gore never claimed to have invented the Internet. Not even once.
My mistake - I should know by now everything I say must be precise. Here's exactly what he said in an interview on CNN on March 8, 1999 (emphasis mine):

"During my service in the United States Congress, I took the initiative in creating the Internet."

The creation of the internet - formerly known as the ARPANET - began in the late 1960s while Gore was still in college.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
Part of the problem, I think, is you are either confusing "global warming" and "human-caused global warming" or you think they are and can be used interchangeably (maybe because a lot of people use them as if they mean the same thing). They are two different things, one of which science confirms and the other science does not.

Yes, there have been skeptics to man-made global warming since the beginning of climate study. There still are. There also has been skeptics about actual global warming ever since Fourier discovered in the 1820s that "greenhouse gasses" trap heat radiated from the Earth's surface after it has absorbed energy from the sun. That's how science works. Throughout the 1800 and 1900s science continued gathering data and testing theories unencumbered by politics, and more and more of it has been reviewed, tested and confirmed as sound. Not all of it, of course, but what has been proven is solid. For example, since the 1960s evidence of global warming has continued to accumulate, especially as more and more disparate scientific disciplines gather corroborating data. Carl Sagan presented the science in Cosmos in the 80s and it wasn't the least bit controversial, because he presented the established science fact rather than any of the theories of hypotheses. In 1998 Michael Mann and colleagues published a detailed analysis of global average temperature over the last millennium known as the "hockey stick graph," revealing a rapid temperature increase since the industrial revolution. Despite concerted efforts (by other skeptical scientists in peer review, replication and associative experiments) to find fault with Mann's methodology, his result is now accepted as sound, valid and empirical. But that doesn't say anything about anthropogenic (human-caused) global warming.

Throughout all of that the science of global warming was just that, science, and was unencumbered by politics. As a Freshman Senator in 1976 Gore held the first Congressional hearings on Climate Change and sponsored hearings on Global Warming. But nobody had a problem with any of that. We had that rare thing where Democrats and Republicans were working together. But later when Al Gore butted up against George Bush on Global Warming, that's when the Republicans crapped themselves and began the industrious effort to replace science with political ideology. From an uncontroversial subject of Global Warming science, out of nowhere there suddenly popped up an army of seemingly unrelated (but very connected, organized and using the same exact catch phrases) skeptical scientists, commentators, experts, think tanks and various organizations and corporations that attempted to do just that, replace science with political ideology. And in this country they largely succeeded. There are people now who deny Global Warming with full-on religious fervor, utterly dismissing science fact in favor of their beliefs.

No, American Republicans were not the source of Global Warming denial, and I never said they were. I said they were the source of the politicization of it, because they were. They created the hoax that Global Warming is a hoax. Mentioning oil and tobacco is appropriate, as those industries are largely close friends with Republicans. You betcha it's about money. There's little reason to politicize much of anything without it. And because they tried (and are still) to replace the science of Global Warming with a belief, in the same manner they want to replace the science of Evolution with a belief. There are very few skeptics of Global Warming outside of American Republicans. But Republicans aren't even skeptics, they go one further and dismiss scientific fact, often without even studying it, in favor of their beliefs. The problem wasn't Republicans going after Gore's more outrageous statements, the problem is they also went after everything else he said, including statements of stone cold scientific fact. It's a limb that they are well out there on, and they will not back down, no matter what the pesky truth is.

Anthropogenic Global Warming, on the other hand, is a different story. Skeptics abound the world over. There is little to debate that humans can and do have an effect on the planet. What resulted from the introduction of lead into gasoline makes that clear enough. While there is agreement that humans do have an effect on climate, there is no universal or even widespread agreement about the quantitative magnitude of anthropogenic global warming relative to natural forces and its harm to benefit ratio.

On Gore's statement of creating the Internet, you don't even necessarily need to be precise, but you should keep it in the correct context. His statement wasn't in the context of trying to take credit for the Internet, it was in the context of his Congressional legislation and initiatives in removing regulations and roadblocks, and creating opportunities, which enabled the Internet to spread beyond ARPANET, USENET and CERFNET, and which led directly to the commercialization of the Internet. Without Al Gore the Internet could very well be limited to the military, universities, and the rich. His impetus for his work on the Internet came directly from what happened with the National Interstate Highway system, which his father introduced as a military bill. He saw the correlation between what the National Highway System did and a national networking of computers. So in a very real sense, Al Gore really did invent the Internet. I was on APANET and USENET before we had the Internet, and trust me, it wasn't anything like the Internet before the Internet.
 

davekc

Senior Moderator
Staff member
Fleet Owner
If you like your insurance... Defending this lie might be reasonable if all bills were posted for 72 hours or 5 days or whatever that particular lie was had been followed through, if there was a consistent pattern of making this the most transparent administration in the history of the nation, if making this the dawn of "post-racial" America and on and on and on. It's understandable he still gets defended though, with such powerful koolaid.

It was an easy lie after the "we have shovel ready jobs".
 

greasytshirt

Moderator
Staff member
Mechanic
I can certainly imagine a scenario where one's religion would make them utterly unelectable, though.
So can I: By not having one.

Right wingers think Obama is Muslim.

Left Wingers...I guess they believe that he's Christian, be cause he says that he's a Christian.


Americans aren't ready to elect an atheist yet, which is a shame.
 

Ragman

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
It was an easy lie . . . .

027.jpg
 

davekc

Senior Moderator
Staff member
Fleet Owner
So can I: By not having one.

Right wingers think Obama is Muslim.

Left Wingers...I guess they believe that he's Christian, be cause he says that he's a Christian.


Americans aren't ready to elect an atheist yet, which is a shame.

If Carson says God is talking to him, I wonder what he is telling Huckabee?
 
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