The Trump Card...

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
Remember when a Clinton supporter started the whole Birther Movement?
Nope, sure don't ... probably because that's not what actually happened.

snopes.com thoroughly details what is known and verified on the origins of the "birther movement" ... and they rate your claim above as FALSE.

It appears that the actual birther movement first appeared out of the fever swamps of the FreeRepublic:

Did Clinton Supporters Start the 'Birther' Movement? : snopes.com

Dismissed by the media as not having anything to do with Clinton herself.
Which appears to have been accurate.
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
In the interests of correcting the record, it appears that there is some conflicting information out there regarding the age of the girls that Trump was wistfully ogling, and dreaming about "dating" ... once they got a little older.

What I initially read said they were 10 year-old girls and I have since seen another account that claimed they were 14 year-olds.

Which of course, makes it so much better ...
 

JohnWC

Veteran Expediter
I've listened to women when I worked in a factory.
While men just say it women use code words which meen the same thing. And there is a difference between saying something and doing it
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
They're doing what they do ... they covered him when he was making a spectacle of himself earlier race and probably found he was good for ratings.
Yup. Back during the primaries, and early on in the presidential race, Trump got lots and lots of coverage, because it generated ratings. Clinton didn't generate ratings (small rallies, no press conferences, relatively sane, boring). What little coverage Clinton got was from the emails, so it was mostly negative, far more negative than Trump's coverage. And many of the media outlets (TV) got criticized for it, and they openly discussed it on air, almost apologetically.

But the tenor has changed, where Trump's coverage isn't merely coverage of his wild and crazy statements, but it's full-on anti-Trump, while Clinton is consistently praised and the things that would normally damage her campaign are brushed off as unimportant or not even covered. CNN and the NYT (a big contributor to her campaign and her Foundation, incidentally) are arguably the two worst offenders. They are, for all intensive purposes (that was intentional :D), part of the Clinton campaign. I used to watch a lot of CBSN (the online network where second presidential debate moderator Elaine Quijano is the daytime anchor). But it's getting harder and harder to watch. They do a lot of hard news, unlike CNN these days, but anymore when it moves to politics, it's basically just a reporter interviewing another reporter about how evil Trump is.

Because the MSN, in lockstep with Hillary's campaign, will go through the returns and pick and choose things they can create fake outrage with.
Is it possible that there might be something in those returns that people rightly ought to be outraged about ?

Particularly given Mr. Trump's representations about his own financial condition and wealth ?
Sure, it's certainly possible. But a lack of evidence is hardly evidence of anything. The "Only guilty people have something to hide" argument is always a failing argument. That's the bread and butter of conspiracy theories... and cops.

Romney got criticized for legally paying only 14% of his income in taxes. People were outraged. They weren't really happy with him holding money in offshore accounts to legally avoid paying taxes. He didn't do anything wrong, but all people could talk about was that 14%. And most of those who talked about never even once looked at his returns to se how he was only able to pay that amount. They were outraged because they were told to be outraged. Trump is basically a large corporate enterprise, and that complexity is going to be reflected in his tax returns. That's why every political reporter wants to get a hold of them, like a kid in a candy store.

Incidentally, did you know that, unlike Congress, cabinet members and others in appointed and elected positions, Presidents are exempt from conflict-of-interest laws. :eek:

That's why I think that, while we don't need congressional legislation requiring presidential candidates to release their tax records, we do need one requiring them do so once they are elected to the office, either within 10 days after the inauguration, or at any time between the election and the inauguration. They may be exempt from conflict-of-interest laws, but at least we'd be able to better scrutinize their executive order and policies while in office. I think with Trump, that's even more true.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
Remember when a Clinton supporter started the whole Birther Movement?
Nope, sure don't ... probably because that's not what actually happened.

snopes.com thoroughly details what is known and verified on the origins of the "birther movement" ... and they rate your claim above as FALSE.

It appears that the actual birther movement first appeared out of the fever swamps of the FreeRepublic:

Did Clinton Supporters Start the 'Birther' Movement? : snopes.com

Dismissed by the media as not having anything to do with Clinton herself.
Which appears to have been accurate.
I'm gonna pick nits. While the idea of calling into question Obama's birthplace may have originated on a message board at the FreeRepublic, and it developed into a full blown conspiracy theory, that's all it was, a conspiracy theory languishing among millions of conspiracy theories. It didn't become an actual movement until Clinton supporters picked it up and ran with it. If Clinton supporters had ignored it, it would have sat there and rotted on the vine, no movement.
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
Fact of the matter is, Trump promised to release his returns ... and doing so has become a tradition for presidential candidates, at least within the last 50 or so years.

Trump has not fulfilled that promise ... he has broken it.

And to add insult to injury, his reasoning for doing so (because: under audit) is utterly spurious ... as demonstrated by the slapdown he was given by Warren Buffet (also under audit) when Buffet released his returns ... and called Trump out on it.

Simple logic tells one that if his stated reason for not releasing his returns is spurious, then there must be another motivation for not doing so.
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
I'm gonna pick nits. While the idea of calling into question Obama's birthplace may have originated on a message board at the FreeRepublic, and it developed into a full blown conspiracy theory, that's all it was, a conspiracy theory languishing among millions of conspiracy theories. It didn't become an actual movement until Clinton supporters picked it up and ran with it. If Clinton supporters had ignored it, it would have sat there and rotted on the vine, no movement.
Have any verified facts or evidence to cite on that ?
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
Incidentally, did you know that, unlike Congress, cabinet members and others in appointed and elected positions, Presidents are exempt from conflict-of-interest laws. :eek:
No, I didn't know that ... probably because - again, like your statement about the birther movement - it isn't really an accurate statement.

You might wanna check out the actual law:

18 U.S. Code § 208 - Acts affecting a personal financial interest - LII / Legal Information Institute

and the penalties associated with that law:

18 U.S. Code § 216 - Penalties and injunctions - LII / Legal Information Institute

This is also a good primer, in layman's language:

Financial Assets and Conflict of Interest Regulation in the Executive Branch - Congressional Research Service
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
I've listened to women when I worked in a factory.
While men just say it women use code words which meen the same thing. And there is a difference between saying something and doing it
Indeed there is ... much to The Donald's dismay apparently ...
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
At this point - given the optics (yes, that's a thing) - any sane individual would decide that Dr. Ben Carson's role as a Trump spokesgoblin out to be kaput ... finished ... done ...

But then we aren't talking about sane people are we ?
 
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Turtle

Administrator
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Retired Expediter
And to add insult to injury, his reasoning for doing so (because: under audit) is utterly spurious ... as demonstrated by the slapdown he was given by Warren Buffet (also under audit) when Buffet released his returns ... and called Trump out on it.

Simple logic tells one that if his stated reason for not releasing his returns is spurious, then there must be another motivation for not doing so.
Simple logic can often be fraught with fallacy. You've concluded that because Buffet released his returns under audit that therefore ergo Trump should, too, and because Trump hasn't, his reason for not doing so is fraudulent. So you've created a false premise and then built an argument on top of it, but more than that, you actually drew a conclusion based on the false premise. The logic is valid, but because you started out with a false premise, the conclusion is false.

Since at least 1968, and probably before that, not a single presidential candidate has released their tax returns while they were under audit. Nixon in 68 and again in 72 released no tax returns as a candidate. He finally did released his returns, and while being under audit, in 1973, but only after being reelected.

Ford never released his tax returns.

Most tax attorneys will be thoroughly sympathetic to the desire not to make tax returns public while they're being audited. Just because Buffet didn't get that advice from his lawyers, or did but ignored it, doesn't mean Trump should release his just because Buffet did, and it certainly doesn't mean his reason for not releasing them is spurious.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
I'm gonna pick nits. While the idea of calling into question Obama's birthplace may have originated on a message board at the FreeRepublic, and it developed into a full blown conspiracy theory, that's all it was, a conspiracy theory languishing among millions of conspiracy theories. It didn't become an actual movement until Clinton supporters picked it up and ran with it. If Clinton supporters had ignored it, it would have sat there and rotted on the vine, no movement.
Have any verified facts or evidence to cite on that ?
Same Snopes link you posted. It tells the tale of how the birther theory first emerged on FreeRepublic, and the fact that the Hillary Clinton supporters picked it up (being the irresistible "good ammo" that is was) and spread it via forwarded e-mails. Can't have a movement without, you know, movement. The Clinton supporters moved it. They moved it from the pages of the FreeRepublic and out into the wild.
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
There is nothing that legally prohibits Donald Trump from releasing his tax returns.

If you believe that to be otherwise, then please reference the specific law or statute that would apply.

The fact is, Donald Trump promised to do so ... and hasn't done it.

As we all know, making commitments which one isn't willing to keep is not a good way to start off

In fact, when he was originally asked about doing so he said (among other things) the following:

"We’'l take a good strong look at that…" Trump promised. "But I have no objection to certainly showing tax returns."

The details of the conversation - which occurred in an interview on Hugh Hewitt's radio program - can be found at the link below:

Donald Trump Promised to Release His Tax Returns a Year Ago: ‘I Have No Objection’

So, in essence ... it was another lie put forward by Trump ... apparently he does have objections ... otherwise he would just do it.
 

davekc

Senior Moderator
Staff member
Fleet Owner
I don't see any reason for why Trump would release his taxes. Because of the complexity of them, he would do nothing but field questions on them right up to the election. Politically it wouldn't be a smart move considering how our media slobbers all over themselves on every little thing.
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
Simple logic can often be fraught with fallacy.
Indeed it can ...

It seems like you are cherry-picking facts - while ignoring others - to support your own preferred narrative.

Same Snopes link you posted. It tells the tale of how the birther theory first emerged on FreeRepublic, and the fact that the Hillary Clinton supporters picked it up (being the irresistible "good ammo" that is was) and spread it via forwarded e-mails.
You left out the following parts that seems to shed a little more light on the rather simplistic rendition above:

"The likeliest point of origin we've been able to find was a post on conservative message board FreeRepublic.com dated 1 March 2008 (which, according to a report in The Telegraph, was at least a month before Clinton supporters got on the e-mail bandwagon):"

"The same rumor was repeated, with elaborations, four days later on the conservative blog Ruthless Roundup:"

Wanna make any bets on how far and wide - "into the wild" - that got spread ?

And this:

"The conspiracy theory was already fully formed at this point. Clearly, the Clinton supporters accused of spreading it via forwarded e-mails knew "good ammo" when they saw it, but, as the above posts show, they deserve neither credit nor blame for the invention of birtherism. "

Remember: the claim offered by you was that a Clinton supporter started it ...

Can't have a movement without, you know, movement. The Clinton supporters moved it. They moved it from the pages of the FreeRepublic and out into the wild.
Any actual evidence of that ?

Or is it just another bit of "simple logic ... fraught with fallacy" ?
 
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RLENT

Veteran Expediter
I don't see any reason for why Trump would release his taxes.
Well, I'm with ya there ... in fact, I can think of a whole ton of frickin' reasons why he wouldn't ...

The real question is: Do you see any possible reason why the electorate should expect him to do so ?

Keep in mind before you answer that there was recently some discussion here in this very thread about ... (wait for it) ....

... conflicts of interest in the Executive Branch ...
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
Incidentally, did you know that, unlike Congress, cabinet members and others in appointed and elected positions, Presidents are exempt from conflict-of-interest laws. :eek:
No, I didn't know that ... probably because - again, like your statement about the birther movement - it isn't really an accurate statement.

You might wanna check out the actual law:

18 U.S. Code § 208 - Acts affecting a personal financial interest - LII / Legal Information Institute

and the penalties associated with that law:

18 U.S. Code § 216 - Penalties and injunctions - LII / Legal Information Institute

This is also a good primer, in layman's language:

Financial Assets and Conflict of Interest Regulation in the Executive Branch - Congressional Research Service
Actually, my statement is a very accurate statement. And it's not something that many people are aware of, because it almost defies belief. I agree the notion that the president being exempt from conflict of interest laws seems just nuts, but it really is true. The President, the Vice President, a Member of Congress, and a Federal judge are explicitly exempted from the laws of conflict of interest.

18 U.S.C. §202. Definitions
(c) Except as otherwise provided in such sections, the terms “officer” and “employee” in sections 203, 205, 207 through 209, and 218 of this title shall not include the President, the Vice President, a Member of Congress, or a Federal judge.
I know. Nuts, right? But there are reasons for it.

Congress (as well as federal judges) has their own set of conflict of interest rules, and additional ones were added specifically for Congress in the Ethics in Government Act if 1978 (passed on the heels of Watergate and the Saturday Night Massacre). The Act also prevents the president from using presidential powers to the direct advantage of his businesses or the financial interests of family members, though. He can't go and create an executive order that directly benefits one of his golf courses, for example.

I found a pretty good Bloomberg piece that lays it all out, including the history of the federal conflict of interest laws, and does so specifically with the potential issues a Trump presidency would create.

 

davekc

Senior Moderator
Staff member
Fleet Owner
I don't see any reason for why Trump would release his taxes.
Well, I'm with ya there ... in fact, I can think of a whole ton of frickin' reasons why he wouldn't ...

The real question is: Do you see any possible reason why the electorate should expect him to do so ?

Keep in mind before you answer that there was recently some discussion here in this very thread about ... (wait for it) ....

... conflicts of interest in the Executive Branch ...

I can see why some might expect or want it, but that is much different than whether it is a good idea. I don't suspect he will. But yes, there very well could be some conflicts of interest. Think they are stepping into the same issue with the Clinton Foundation. Only difference there is the latter won't get the same media treatment. Just my opinion of course.
 
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