New Jersy bans the death penalty

[arkjarhead]

Yesterday I believe it was, New Jersey's governor signed a bill that bans the death penalty in their state. So what do you think about it?

I for one thought I was completely pro death penalty until I did a research paper on the subject. After that I really don't know. After reading articles written by people from both sides I can see where each is coming from.

I would like to include a piece from the paper. That shows both sides of this argument with two different writer’s work being cited.

Many people feel that the death penalty is often handed out without warrant. In A Test of Faith: Witnessing a Friend’s Execution; William Tollinger Jr. talks about how his friend, Sam McDonald, who he met through a pen pal program, had a very life. Sam was in the Army during the Vietnam War. After service in Vietnam he came home in horrible physical and mental health. Sam was suffering from what is now known as Post Traumatic Stress Disorder or PTSD for short. PTSD is a mental disorder that occurs in people after witnessing horrifying events. Sam told William of how, on a patrol in Vietnam, one time his platoon did a village sweep and he accidentally killed an elderly woman and an infant. This haunted him.(A Test of Faith: Witnessing a Friend’s Execution, Nov. 11,1998, pg. 2) I have learned through my personal experiences at the Veteran’s hospital that there was not very much help available to the soldiers returning from Vietnam. They were on their own. Many decided to medicate themselves with alcohol and drugs. This was the case for Sam McDonald. While high on heroin, Sam murdered an off duty police officer in front of the cop’s child. When Sam went to trial, the judge refused to allow a mental evaluation. Sam’s attorney was an assistant district attorney who had verbal confrontations with the judge and prosecuting attorney on many occasions. Sam appealed the fact that a mental evaluation had not been done for sixteen years before being put to death. (A Test of Faith: Witnessing a Friend’s Execution, Nov. 11, 1998, pg. 3)

On the flip side of the coin you have people like Don Feder who wrote the article Capital Punishment Is Not Barbaric. In this article Feder discusses how people should think about the victims and survivors of the convicts’ heinous crimes. In his article he speaks of the rape and murder of a Utah eleven year old named Charla King, who was strangled to death by a telephone cord after being raped. (Capital Punishment Is Not Barbaric, Feb. 14, 1996, pg. 2) Her murderer, John Albert Taylor, was executed by firing squad in Utah. He brings up the fact that convicts are given the chance to appeal their convictions while the victims have no second chance. He also talks about how Taylor died in at most a matter of minutes while Charla King was tortured for an hour and a half.( Capital Punishment Is Not Barbaric, Feb. 14, 1996, pg. 2 ) I’m sure most would agree Taylor died in less pain and agony than his victim did.

On the case of Sam McDonald I don’t know what should have been done. Had he been given a mental evaluation at the time of his trial he might have not received the death penalty. I do not condone his actions. Obviously someone thought it wouldn’t have made a difference when he appealed this through the legal channels. I do believe he should at the very least have been sentenced to life without the chance of parole.

I know this is a long post, but it makes you think. Next year this issue will go before the U.S. Supreme Court. We will see what they have to say on the issue. Regardless of what they say I will remain torn on the topic. I think the main thing that bothers me is when women and rich men kill they usually don’t get the death penalty. I knew of a woman who openly admitted to me while I worked in corrections that she did in fact throw her baby into the Arkansas River. When a poor man kills he gets the death penalty. The death penalty is given in disproportionate numbers to the poor and minorities. If it is good for some it should be good for all. If the death penalty is not good for those who can afford an attorney it shouldn’t be good for those who have to use the public defender.

 

[greg334]

Ark,
The purpose of the death penalty is to keep our world civilized and not applied enough. What leads up to this can be debated but in reality has nothing to do with rich poor white black.

See the thing is, we have come from a civilized culture of the 1930-40’s and ended up with a very uncivilized culture today – I am not just talking about the US but world. We went from an intolerant society where there were attempts to eliminate things that were bad for society to a tolerant ‘almost anything goes’ society.

Look around and see the cultures that have held on tight don’t seem to have the problems we have in mass. When we assault religion, assault victims and their families, assault the truth and assault the basic instincts of people, we open ourselves up to more crime and less punishment with justifying the crimes themselves at the same time forgetting what the word justice actually means. It gets worst; we have come to the point now where we blame the victim for the crime.

Our spiral into the abyss has led our country now to the point we are charging 5th graders with an felony for using a knife to cut their food at school or charging a kindergartner with sexual harassment because he hugged his teacher while we feel sorry for someone who invades our country, who has committed a lot of crime and then kills a women and her children after raping them to only have the Mexican government demand that he gets a fair trial. Isn’t this a society issue more than a justice issue?

Taking race out of it, because there is no basis for the demographics being use in the first place, there are too many safe guards that came from the 60’s civil right reforms. We can not control as a society what others are doing because they are following people who lead them to crime, we can only become more intolerant of the thing that people do like Dog Fighting.

And putting income in perspective, if crime was driven by poverty alone, then during the 1907 and the 1930’s depression we would have seen a great spike in murders and execution but didn’t.

The justice system has for the most part become more political in the past 40 years, and more recently the question of cruel and unusual has been twisted to include the way one is executed when in reality there is nothing cruel or unusual to have one beheaded by a sword (practiced in the middle east), drawn and quartered (a former form of punishment that was acceptable) or even dumped in boiling oil (a quicker end than electrocution) - all of these are not cruel because the outcome is to stop the criminal from living.

We used to have judges who actually judged not worried about the record of cases being turned over and didn't have showcase lawyers on both sides trying to win the case.

I would also say that once we start tinkering with the system to force equality for every accused person outside of what we have, we start going down that path that will lead us to a totalitarian state. I recommend you research the Berlin murders of the early 1930’s and what Hitler promised and how he archived it. We, in no doubt live in a country that has had the greatest modern judicial system in the world and changing it cheats everyone.

When you look at all of this, and start to feel sorry for the guy who is about to lose his life because they took someone else’s, remember the victims. Remember that most of these crimes are done to people who can’t defend themselves or are children. Remember that there is no recourse for the victim, even though they are dead, and in reality for every life that is lost and every criminal who does not pay equally, society is the real victim.

And yes I agree that there is a serious problem with double standards and women. Not to sound sexist but I think the women’s movement of the 19th century to the mid 30's has taken serious steps backwards in the 60's and 70's and even today. There still is no equality in the work place and many don't get the correlation between the taxes and the amount of money people make so many have to work just to keep up. And for those who are quick to defend the work of these leaders of women, take a very serious look at the sexual harassment laws and the EEOC. Unless you have gone through the process they have to just file a complaint, there is a lot more against you than for you - so I think there was a step backwards.

 

[arkjarhead]

I watched a piece on the CBS Evening News 2 nights ago I think. They interviewed a gentleman who is a former executioner for the Commonwealth of Virginia. He said he felt that electrocution was a quicker way than lethal injection. He has performed executions using both methods. He also stated if judges, jurors, and other citizens were made to perform the execution they would either want it banned or not hand down that sentence.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to take anything away from the victims. I don't think victims should be blamed for crimes performed against them. I also think the offender should pay the price for the crime they committed. I think you know as well as I know if you can afford a big time lawyer with his staff after committing murder you don't have to worry about frying for your crime.

I never said that murder is brought on by poverty. What I was saying that studies show poor people recieve the death penalty more often than the rich. Heck the rich even sometimes manage to get off the hook completely. I just think if the death penalty is going to be used it needs to be used across the board. If someone is found guilty of Capital Murder they recieve the death penalty automaticly. That's the only way to do it IMO. All or none.

The thing about women is true. I often find that women want to be treated as equals until it is no longer convienent.

 

[AnneM]

Here in OH, there was an incident where lethal injection was performed on a former IV drug user. They had many many dificulties locating a "good" vein. Needless to say, it took 2 tries, the family witnessed the "suffering" of the convict and are now suing the state of OH for a botched execution. Poor inmate. I personally do not feel sorry for the inmate. He killed a father of four in the commission of a robbery. What about those 4 little children? Granted they did not have to see their father be executed, but he was not there for the better part of their lives. Oh, and by the way, the convict killed this man to rob him of a small amount of money for drugs. I think that families should not be able to sue the state for negligence in the event of a "botched" execution.

 

[greg334]

Which family, the victims or the criminals?

I strongly feel that the criminals family should be allowed to attend, there are no last visits 5 days prior and his body should regardless be cremated and dumped in some pit behind the prison.

I also think that many victims families would pull the switch if given the chance which should be a choice (I even will go so far in saying that if the sentence is left up to the victims family like in other countries, our death row population would be huge). I feel that the desire for closure by any means to violent crimes with many people, even those who profess that they are against the death penalty, comes to down to getting justice for their loss more than anything else and being a part of that justice justifies their involvement.

Also I was listening to a 'journalist' who for some odd reason made it a point that everyone should follow NJ's lead and eliminate the death penalty, making one interesting but completely ignorant comment; "the use of the death penalty is like stepping back into the 'wild west'". Well I would rather have the west's justice system than todays media driven courts. Back then there was real equality and not a closed system of representation that we allowed to evolved with the ABA and with the media.

Ark, I got what your saying with the poor vs. rich in the system.

 

[AnneM]

The criminal's family wants millions of dollars from the state of OH because their son/brother suffered in a botched execution.

 

[LDB]

Criminals who have done something deserving of the death penalty should pretty much lose all rights they once had. In most cases, even in a "botched" execution, their pain and suffering is less than their victim's and besides that they earned it whereas their victim didn't. That inmate's family should be told to go suck eggs. That's ridiculous and insulting for them to even think about suing and to be allowed to do so.

Leo Bricker, 73's K5LDB
OOIDA Life Member 677319, JOIN NOW
Owner, Panther trucks 5508, 5509, 5641
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Support the entire Constitution, not just the parts you like.

 

[greg334]

Anne
There is something wrong here. The criminal’s family should not be allowed to sue. If anything the victim’s family should be able to go after them.

This is what I am talking about; in the bigger scheme of things we hit our pinnacle with civilization as a world in the 1930’s and 40’s and even with war and depression, the sense of being civil was not bizarre and backwards as it is today.

I read an essay from some Harvard sociologist a while ago and he was talking about the lawlessness of the latter part of the 17th century through the early part of the 20th century in London, a very violent city during that time. He pointed out that in comparison to the major cities of the US (he also compared European cities too) that have the highest crime rate (Detroit being one of them), the chances of you getting killed today are greater now than during that time in London.

Today, like the criminals family suing the state, we accept this as being OK, when in the past it would have never happened.

Here are a few things to help me with my point.

The latest is Brittany’s sisters being knocked up like a cheap… and the compassion a lot feel for her because she is now a teen who is pregnant while her ‘long time’ boyfriend is 19. Is there going to be someone going to jail for statuary rape?

Why in the h*ll would someone like Brittany’s mother write a parenting book? Isn’t that like Martha Stewart writing a book on honesty and integrity?

Should she be put up on a pedestal as a model parent with the outcome of her two daughters?

Or did Dave Barry actually write the book for her?

Today we look at things that hurt our country as being acceptable, the last time I checked, Jane Fonda was still alive but many were directly hurt be her actions and the country actually was harmed (indiscretions of her youth was the last justification I heard). The last time I checked, Sandy Berger is walking around alive while after WW2, the US with their allies executed people who did a lot less then destroy and steal secret information, like William Joyce. I counted the other day out of curiosity that the French executed on the state level 39 collaborators, 15 politicians and 33 enemies of the state all within a year of the war ending. This does not count the numbers of collaborators who ended up in Germany and was executed by the French military. The Dutch had similar numbers, as did the Hungarians, Belgium, the Italians and so on.

What a country we live in where we just ignore the dismantling of the constitution. We are so concerned with being listened to if we talk to a terrorist in a foreign country which does not really affect us but rather ignore our property rights being removed and case after case of peoples property taken away to give to developers to make money on that does not benefit anyone.

Today I read about Bush pardoning people who for the most part may have deserved some consideration for the length of their sentence served, but a few were drug dealers who don’t deserve to get out. In today’s society, we ignore the unjust prosecution of people who are not of a poor background, or of a real minority, or are part of the group of people that protects us and we allow things to happen that will eventually have a very overreaching effect on all of us, we have been more than silent on the two border guards sitting in jail while in the past people plea for criminals to be spared like Stanley Tookie Williams who committed a horrible crime.

You know that congress voted for a fence on the border, the dems are dismantling that fence through legislation and no one seems to care - what a twisted world we live in today.

 

[AnneM]

Leo, we finally agree. I think the family trying to sue the state of OH should be told to go suck eggs. the convict killed an innocent father of 4. For drugs. When they executed him, they had issues with his veins, but he was unconscious. He felt nothing. It was just another example of greed. The family took that opportunity and ran with it. It makes me sick!

Greg - I am the mother of 3 wonderful children. I am not even remotely capable of writing a book on how to raise children. Lynne Spears writing a book on that subject has about as much validation as Dahmer writing a cookbook! (got that from the view) So, how can that be acceptable?? It's all about greed. The government really needs to step back and focus on how the constitution has been skewed and work on trying to straighten it back out. Morals and standards have obviously been lowered considerably, and greed seems to rule all. It's scary to think how children will grow up in our current society!

 

[Crazynuff]

Just by coincidence I laid over in S.C. and heard this on the news yesterday morning http://daisysdeadair.blogspot.com/ . I know many people feel justice would be better served if murderers like Scott Peterson were placed in the prison general population rather than in a solitary cell in death row . The people most qualified to give opinions on the death penalty are victim's families .
I also saw a tv show last week on murder victims' families involved with possible parole or execution of the murderer . One murderer was up for parole but just spoke of how he had changed and never showed remorse or offered an apology . Parole was denied . The mother of a murder victim corresponded with the murderer and witnessed his execution . He was remorseful and she forgave him but felt the execution was necessary for closure for her and justice for society .
Those of Christian beliefs realize while sin is forgivable there is still the obligation to pay for the crime .

 

[arkjarhead]

"Those of Christian beliefs realize while sin is forgivable there is still the obligation to pay for the crime" .

It actually depends on which part of the Bible you are refrencing. If you are referring to the part that says An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth then yes. The death penalty is the Christian thing to do. If you quote what Jesus himself said then the death penalty is not the way to go. Jesus said Vengence is mine. Thus he would take care of it. I would think locking someone away in solitary for the rest of their life would be more punishment than a quick death. Plus I've often heard it's cheaper that way when you factor in the costs of all the appeals.

For the record I'm a Christian. I have preached and taught the word. I don't always do like I should and I will answer for that one day. The Bible also tells me those who preach and teach will be held to a higher standard. That's what I fear most. Honestly I don't think you would see Jesus acting as an executioner. I can't close my eyes and see my Lord and Savior pulling the switch to the death appartus on someone.

Ulitmately it's out of our hands weather or not the death penalty remains or is abolished. I think if it will deter crime and be used across the board for all murderers then keep it, but if some are gonna be killed by the state and some aren't then they should do away with it. IMO.

 

[AnneM]

Google Michael Lee Lockhart. Perfect example where the death penalty fits the crime. He was remorseful, decided at first not to appeal. Wrote a letter of apology (supposedly) to each of the families he victimized. I think (IMO of course) that you would not get closure until execution. While the murderer is still in prison, I'm sure the families still worry that parole would be granted and that person would be free, while their loved one is gone.

 

[arkjarhead]

There is a sentence called Life without the possibility of parole. In the pen they call it Life Without. It means you will never be outside the fence again. Unless you live Arkansas and then you get to go work on the hoe squad for at least your first 6 months of incarceration. If you don't know how to act you'll be there longer. Women sued the state to change the name of the women's hoe squad to the field squad and won. They said it was deragatory term. It's a friggin garden tool get over it.

 

[greg334]

Ark,
These are random thoughts on your post.

I have been brought up to believe that God is not always fair and just, God can be cruel and mean and it is all of us who have to live according to his rules and reap the rewards or punishment in the after life.

He didn’t prevent us from serving justice to those who commit serious crimes against people.

But with that said, I keep finding the same stuff in quotes from opponents of the death penalty – like the one you quoted, which comes from Deuteronomy which is part of the Torah last time I checked.

Someone can correct me here if they want to do so, it was Paul who explained Christ and the keeping of Torah are the same thing; a little confusing there.

If we assume that Paul is right and we must abide by the old testament, a.k.a. the Torah, as much as we must abide by the new. The 10 commandments come from the Torah and taking things out of context serves no righteous purpose. Does this make sense?

So with that in mind, I can say this to justify killing of evil;

“You must destroy such evil from your midst.â€

This also comes from Deuteronomy but with a different context. What does God mean ‘Destroy’? I think he means kill, eliminate or otherwise make disappear. Am I wrong?

Also when you read all the laws, we are allowed slaves and rape is mentioned as a means to obtain a wife, interesting thing to have the Bible talk about slavery and rape like this. Oh and not to mention that we must kill non-believers, force parents to take a stubborn and rebellious sons to be stoned and using the death penalty for males who disobey their parents if the first don’t work.

Well anyway…..

When we speak of the death penalty and justice, it used to be that this was done in the sight of God and it was a proper thing to do to rid society of this vermin. The fact that we have come to the point in our country we question our society and remove God from as much as possible while still applying his commandments to our everyday lives.

The death penalty deters crime when the system works. The system fails because of the appeals and because of the long term process. We have come to this point where there is proof that it does not work but like a lot of other studies, each and every situation that has been studied to find the ‘correct’ answer has been skewed or the subject’s actions have been justified. It is like gun control, many law abiding people who are intelligent know that a gun is a deterrent, h*ll even the criminals will not target gun owners (remember all the Florida killings in the 90’s? they were mostly tourist who were not allowed to carry a gun). But the gun control advocates have study after study that they quote saying guns kill people and it is out of control.

When you talk about life sentences, I was talking to my cousin once a long time ago about her work, who is a Psychologist with the state of California. Her job was to evaluate two prisoners and only those two, she was part of a team to focus on Charles Manson and Sirhan Sirhan. The money that is spent keeping these two alive and well can be better spent on educating people or something else and Manson from what she has told me is really evil, someone who should have been killed when he was caught. But keeping someone behind bars does not mean it is cheaper, in fact the Russians have used the best method to cleanly and completely execute someone, a 25 caliber cartridge.

And by the way, it is our country, our government and our right to have it. The federal government has taken our rights away because we are sheep, read about Kelo vs. New London and tell me what isn’t important about that case over all others.

 

[arkjarhead]

I guess you think I'm anti death penalty. That isn't the case. You are throwing out a bunch of information that doesn't justify to me the one thing I have against the death penalty if this one thing could be fixed I'd be all for it.APPLY IT ACROSS THE BOARD. ANYONE FOUND GUILTY OF MURDER GETS THE DEATH PENALTY. Then I'll support it.

The reason I say we have no say in it is because we don't. The descision will be made by someone who most likely has never had a family member murdered, never lived in the trailer park, or lived on the wrong side of the tracks. When I think about the Supreme Court justices I get sick to my stomache. They don't represent me, but they make descions for this whole country. At least I know my Rep. in the House is a country boy like me. He stands up for truckers, farmers, veterans, and any other working men. That's my kinda guy. I think we should be able to vote on this death penalty thing but we won't.

Explain to me why it's a good thing for the privledged with money not to fry and it's alright for a poor boy to fry and rot in ##### and I'll be for the death penalty. Explain to me why 2 people can commit the same crime in the same state and 1 gets to live while the other dies. I think they both should die. But if one gets to live out his life why shouldn't the other?