New Harvard Study On Iraq

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
If the media and the government would portray these protests in a positive manner...instead of a negative manner...It would help...I suppose as with most things it's an individual response to a situation....How'd you conduct a silent protest?

I guess it's a citizens responsibility to weigh the consequences of thier actions....just because you have the right doesn't always mean you have to exercise them rights....thers a time and place to pick your issues.
 

Tennesseahawk

Veteran Expediter
I don't put the blame on protesters for the deaths of our servicemen or emboldening the enemy. I blame the media. When a pro-war protest meets an anti-war protest, the media will focus on the anti-war one, even if the pro-war is five times as strong. Then, they'll show it in a way to appear many times larger than it is. When this kind of distortion is used, it not only emboldens the enemy, but the ppl who watch the news get a skewed view of what's going on. Also, very little is being shown from the front, other than US deaths.

We have stopped showing the Trade Center going down. We don't show the barbarians sawing off heads of our citizens. We give opinion instead of actual news. We show victories as failure (Tet Offensive). To me, our media gives aid and comfort to the enemy. Yes, we have a freedom of the press. But IMO, that does not give them the freedom from telling the truth.
 
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Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
Hey, I can play nice, but I was attacked, without provocation. How do I play nice with that? I tried, anyway, and still got called names. Oh, well.

In any case, I've protested the war in my own way, more quietly as as to not embolden the enemy. I've written letters and e-mails to those in Congress and to the President to voice my opinions about it all. I think the president should have been up front from the beginning and said, "We're gonna go after Saddam Hussein because he tried to kill my daddy." I can get behind that.

But now that we're in there, we have to stay in there, long term, to properly finish this thing. Just look what happened when we finally cut and ran out of Viet Nam before the job was finished. That snotty little Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge systematically exterminated upwards of 2 million people, and another 2 million fled the country, with nearly a million of those "boat people" dying at sea.

The difference between Vietnam and the Middle East is, the millions who could die from not finishing things now would likely be millions of Americans, because one snotty little terrorist finally got his hands on the right weapon of mass destruction.
 
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greg334

Veteran Expediter
OVM, you are joking? media not portraying the protests in a positive light?

The problem is that the people who are for the war or the troops and understand what it really is all about, the ones who do the troop rallies, the home coming parties and the ones who go to the VA and help out are ignored - the news makers are the protesters and they are reported as heroes.

I don't have the source at hand, but there was a north Vietnam general who wrote a pretty good book and in that book he explained that the war protesters in the US won the war for them. If I remember right, some time after Tet, they were ready to thrown in the towel, give up and call it a day but the protests that happened after Tet gave them hope that they could beat us.


The thing that many don't get is that the campuses were the real threat to our country, for the most part they were the incubator of true hate for the country and it still is to this day. You as a student don't have freedom of speech on a campus, it is truly limited and there are so many cases of what I am saying happening today. But I digress... the point is that the enemy, the radical Muslim leader uses our division to show that we are weak, we can't get behind our troops or our president as a nation, so it empowers them to hold these things up as an example as a recruiting point, like 100% FSC going to the contractor - sounds good.

The blunt truth is, this enemy attacks us when we are the most divisive, and when we have protests going on and when they know that the media is watching that soldier kill count and reporting it back to the people so they get tired of hearing it. They know that we will tire of things because we are lazy and not strong. Sad when you think about it.
 

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
I didn't explain what I meant by positive ...but I have these thoughts I am struggling to put into words as I am wary to put it out there and be misunderstood....

to go on...your suggesting then "responsible citizentry"? You have the right, just use it responsibly..
 

Packmule

Expert Expediter
"The difference between Vietnam and the Middle East is, the millions who could die from not finishing things now would likely be millions of Americans, because one snotty little terrorist finally got his hands on the right weapon of mass destruction."

Turtle,

Yes I too am afraid this would happen. But also look at how the rest of the World will look at us. They know our weakness, Do we have to confirm it to them? We need to show success in that which we started, but then again did we start it? Were we the aggressors or did we retaliate aggression.

It ain't over til it's over!!!!
 

highway star

Veteran Expediter
Owner/Operator
Robsdad has shown how state of the art liberals debate. When they can't keep up, they resort to name calling and a veiled reference to physical violence. Face to face, too funny. We can only wonder how Rob turned out with a role model like that.
 
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ratwell71

Veteran Expediter
RobsDad,

"I welcome your opinion, which is of no consequence at all"

"I was born into this world with nothing, I still have most of it"

I like it, can I use it for now on? LOL
 

ratwell71

Veteran Expediter
A war driven by fear.

Neve Gordon: Bush's War Drive

Bombs as a Poor Chisel
Bush's War Drive:
Fear, Distraction & Self-Adulation
by NEVE GORDON

One better think twice before supporting Bush's initiative to launch an attack on Iraq if only because war, as Martin Luther King pointed out, is a poor chisel to carve out tomorrows.

A good way to grasp the logic underlying Bush's plan is by examining the intricate mechanisms his Administration is using to shape public opinion, the most conspicuous of which are distraction, fear, and self-adulation.

DISTRACTION. The Dustin Hoffman and Robert De Niro film Wag the Dog was a comical expression of this strategy, which is currently being put to use in ways more cynical than the movie producers imagined.

Considering that Saddam Hussein's modus operandi has not changed in the past few years, the urgency with which the Bush administration is pushing the war against Iraq at this particular moment in history requires an explanation. Not surprisingly, the answer lies very close to home.

Bush's war cry succeeded in sidelining widespread corporate corruption, which made headlines right before his combative designs were revealed. Enron, Worldcom and the like are no longer under the limelight.

The call to arms has also been used to suppress figures pointing to the rising number of poor Americans, which reached 32.9 million, an increase of 1.3 million from the year before. The Census Bureau's annual report on income and poverty provided evidence that the weakening economy is beginning to a have detrimental affect on large segments of society, regardless of race, region and class. I, for one, don't see CNN spending much time covering poverty and its threat to American society.

Along the same lines, civil liberties, worker's rights, and the environment have all been under attack by this Administration, and only recently have citizen groups managed to mobilize and fight back. What could be more effective than a war to deflect mounting domestic criticism?

FEAR. In order to convince the public that the Iraqi campaign is not simply being used to distract the public from pressing issues at home, a real and present danger must be created.

Just two years before the Gulf War, President Bush -- the father -- stood by without a murmur of protest as Saddam Hussein massacred 100,000 Kurds. The relation to Iraq's premier changed dramatically when he invaded Kuwait, thus threatening U.S. interests in the Middle East, which come down to one thing: access and control of oil. Overnight Hussein was transformed from a Third World ally into an evil monster, a modern day Hitler. It worked then, and it is working now.

We are currently being told that Hussein is dangerous because he has access to weapons of mass destruction. Considering, however, that most countries in the Middle East possess chemical weapons, including Israel, Egypt, Syria and probably Saudi Arabia, the "preemptive" elimination of Iraq's weapons program is, to say the least, peculiar. It's really about whose a friend and whose a foe, not about weapons.

The Administration is not taking any risks, however, and recently decided to spread its eggs among a few baskets. Suddenly Saddam Hussein is not merely a recalcitrant tyrant who has weapons of mass destruction, but, in Bush's words, a man who hates America, loves to link up with Al Qaeda, and is a true threat to America.

Ironically, Israel's Chief of Staff Moshe Ya'alon, who is not known for his dovish opinions, recently averred, "Iraq's capabilities are shallow compared to what they were in the Gulf War. They are not capabilities that give me sleepless nights."

If Israel isn't worried, why, one might ask, is Bush?

SELF-ADULATION. The Bush Administration justifies its actions by engendering a sense that Uncle Sam not only knows better, but is also more responsible and righteous than any other country. This tactic produces a certain type of patriotism used to avert all forms of criticism, as can be seen by how the Administration's seemingly omnipresent knowledge and moral high ground is employed to counter the claims made by an overwhelming number of countries that adamantly reject Bush's war plans.

Just envision the good that could be done if an extra 100 or 200 billion dollars -- the war's estimated cost! -- were allocated to education, training programs and creating new jobs. The public education system would receive a vital injection and millions of people could finally exit the vicious cycle of poverty and deprivation. Wouldn't that be a more worthy endeavor than the one Bush is pursuing?

"To be a patriot," Mark Twain once wrote, "one had to say, and keep on saying, 'Our country, right or wrong,' and urge on the little war." And then Twain added, "Have you not perceived that that phrase is an insult to the nation?"
 

ratwell71

Veteran Expediter
Forbidden Truth: U.S.-Taliban Secret Oil Diplomacy, Saudi Arabia and the Failed Search for bin Laden by Wayne and Jean-Charles Brisard, Guillaume Dasquie Madsen

Hate high oil prices? Still want to defend your country's leader? We are one nation under God, you want a leader there He is. You want a dictator or a king then you get what you asked for. Stop bowing down to a man that claims he wants freedom for the people of Iraq. All he wants is to get richer. How can you claim to be a Christian and commit the crimes that he has committed?

You want to help nations? What about the countries that have been requesting our help? You know like Africa and their genocide issues! Oh, I am sorry we are too concerned about bullying a country into accepting a democracy that they did not ask for. Hel*, for that matter we did not ask for this democracy that Bush has created for us. We, protesters, want the freedoms that God promised us not what man says we are given. The Constitution of the U.S. does not give you or anyone else your birth right. This country was built on God's principles not on politics. Our founding fathers wrote the Constitution and formed the Congress from principles found in the Geneva Bible.

The word of God is not to be taken and transformed to our liking. You are either for Him or against Him.

All of us have been given the right to speak our minds, however, some choose to speak for us or want some to change the way they think to suit them. This disharmony causes conflict, but what you should be asking is why anything that gets posted upsets you? Is there an ounce of truth in it? What is creating the stir?

I belong to no flock. The individual mind is a terrible thing to waste. As a collective mindset it is already wasted.
 

Robsdad

Seasoned Expediter
icon10.gif
Re: New Harvard Study On Iraq
RobsDad,

"I welcome your opinion, which is of no consequence at all"

"I was born into this world with nothing, I still have most of it"

I like it, can I use it for now on? LOL


You are more than welcome to use anything you can find on here that I have left. I am asking that they remove me from this conservative safe haven today. If they do not. I will tell them all a head full until they remove me out of frustration. And by the way. I still don't take crap off lil sissy turtles or highway stars.
Have a great day.
Bet your booty I'll vote democrat till the day I die.
Conservative my azz. Republicans can't spell the word.
 

ratwell71

Veteran Expediter
icon10.gif
Re: New Harvard Study On Iraq
RobsDad,

"I welcome your opinion, which is of no consequence at all"

"I was born into this world with nothing, I still have most of it"

I like it, can I use it for now on? LOL


You are more than welcome to use anything you can find on here that I have left. I am asking that they remove me from this conservative safe haven today. If they do not. I will tell them all a head full until they remove me out of frustration. And by the way. I still don't take crap off lil sissy turtles or highway stars.
Have a great day.
Bet your booty I'll vote democrat till the day I die.
Conservative my azz. Republicans can't spell the word.

Robsdad,

Don't do that. Your opinions are more than welcome. They have a right to theirs and you have a right to yours. Why do you let them get to you that way? Some people just like to debate their views, and you are not one that likes to do that because I think you feel you are being attacked. Not so.

I believe that everyone has something to share. We cannot blind ourselves to the possibility that we may be wrong in our views. Speak and stay....

I have alot in common with everyone on this site. I share the same views as you at times. Now we may disagree with the democrat thing because I believe that the political parties create division. Hence why there is some conflict here, but let's not let my view make you mad. Just sit back and enjoy the ride. You know what I mean?
 

highway star

Veteran Expediter
Owner/Operator
When there is a point in conversation that the parties are clearly at an impasse, there are a couple of ways to handle it. You can say something like "we'll just have to agree to disagree", or you can take the low road and start name-calling and the like. I have friends that are the polar opposite of me in things political. But, because we respect each other, we can debate and still remain friends. I would never tell them that they are full of excrement simply because they disagree with me. Does that make me a "sissy"?
 

ratwell71

Veteran Expediter
When there is a point in conversation that the parties are clearly at an impasse, there are a couple of ways to handle it. You can say something like "we'll just have to agree to disagree", or you can take the low road and start name-calling and the like. I have friends that are the polar opposite of me in things political. But, because we respect each other, we can debate and still remain friends. I would never tell them that they are full of excrement simply because they disagree with me. Does that make me a "sissy"?

Well said. Thanks...

I think we all need to open our eyes to the differences and see that we all have something in common regardless of those differences.

Differences makes for great conversation.
 
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