Looking Ahead to Possible Tax & Deduction Changes ... Bad for Expediters

ATeam

Senior Member
Retired Expediter
The last time I started a post here in the General Forum that had the potential to go political and end up in the Soapbox Forum, it remained here because Open Forum Members did a fantastic job of honoring my request to stay focused on business and off the politics. I thank members for that and make a similar request with this thread.

As Congress meets and people in Washington negotiate about taxes and the federal budget, a proposal has surfaced that is called a deduction cap. Details are sketchy at this point but the concept is to put a cap on the total income tax deductions people can take. The common number is $35,000. It would not matter what kind of deductions one takes, whenever the total reaches $35,000, that's it. No more deductions can be taken.

The concept and number are alarming to Diane and me. As I said, details are sketchy so it may be too early to be alarmed. As one writer put it, "There is no concrete plan for the deduction solution. It could involve further limiting certain deductions, like taking the mortgage-interest deduction cap to $500,000 rather than $1 million. Or it could involve a percentage cap or a dollar cap."

We have no idea that such a proposal will fly. But it is getting serious play in Washington now (Nov 13, 2012) as you read this. The number in play at this point is $35,000. (See New York Times article about it here).

Diane and I spend about $50,000 a year on fuel alone and all of it is tax deductible. A $35,000 deduction cap would mean that $15,000 of our annual fuel costs would not be deductible. It would also mean that every other trucking business expense (and personal expense) we have would not be deductible.

I do not know the answer (at this moment) to the following question and would be interested to hear yours.

If an income tax deduction cap of $35,000 was imposed to take effect in tax year 2013, how would it affect your expedite business? To react to such a cap, what changes would you need/want to make to keep your business going as a profitable enterprise?
 
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ATeam

Senior Member
Retired Expediter
I can offer a general answer to the question. It is that freight rates would have to quickly and dramatically increase to replace the money we would lose by losing deductible business expenses above $35,000. It will take a bit of spreadsheet work to figure out how much rates would need to rise.
 

Monty

Expert Expediter
It was predicted. I am so glad I am out of business and retired.

What is proposed would be a bookeeping nightmare.
 

davekc

Senior Moderator
Staff member
Fleet Owner
It would depend probably on how business deductions are looked at. Not likely to happen in that simpliest form. Not just expediters, it would shut the economy down. Everything from farming to the homebuilder would be impacted significantly.
 
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mjmsprt40

Veteran Expediter
Owner/Operator
Many of us are already on the thin edge as it is, this would suffice to put a number of businesses-- not just expediting-- under. You could not jack prices up fast enough to save the businesses without crashing the economy. Just in trucking alone, the rates we charge would have to skyrocket, and nobody would be willing--- or able-- to pay it.
 

moose

Veteran Expediter
Yha, with no reelections needed we can expect Tax increases across the board, and the sooner the better so we can pay & forget.
i'm with the remarks made above. other Americans will have a bigger problems then we drivers.
this can bring our economy to a halt. maybe they will phase it in ?
regardless of how much we think we will need to charge our customers, there's only as much as the market can bare. our 'job' in this kind of happening is not to keep same expected level of profitability.
our job is to outlast the competitions. once that will happen rates and freight volumes will catch up.
by the time such business tax increase hit the market place, my business will be fully founded, and i will simply wait for my customers to offer a better deal.
 

pearlpro

Expert Expediter
I dont see it happening, a quote in a newspaper is hardly about to become the law of the land, Phil imagine how many OTHER businesses would be affected by that kind of folly....I see some tax loopholes being closed but not what will effectively tax EVERY SMALL BUSINESS....I think the number is a starting point and they want input so get involved and write. If you dont give input and be involved then you cant be part of the legislative process. I dont panic when I see these kinds of things as I know its not going to occur...

We need to band together as an Industry and forge a letter of FACTS and present to a Legislature familiar with Transportation and get more facts and figures into play.
 

dogsbed

Seasoned Expediter
Just a guess on my part, but I think they are talking about a cap on personal deductions taken on schedule A, not business deductions taken on schedule C
 

blizzard2014

Veteran Expediter
Driver
Soon they will get rid of the mileage deduction for the vanners and then we will be in a world of hurt. They are running wild in Washington but that is what the people voted in. We just have to see where this all goes.
 

OHWC2012

Active Expediter
The last time I started a post here in the General Forum that had the potential to go political and end up in the Soapbox Forum, it remained here because Open Forum Members did a fantastic job of honoring my request to stay focused on business and off the politics. I thank members for that and make a similar request with this thread.

As Congress meets and people in Washington negotiate about taxes and the federal budget, a proposal has surfaced that is called a deduction cap. Details are sketchy at this point but the concept is to put a cap on the total income tax deductions people can take. The common number is $35,000. It would not matter what kind of deductions one takes, whenever the total reaches $35,000, that's it. No more deductions can be taken.

The concept and number are alarming to Diane and me. As I said, details are sketchy so it may be too early to be alarmed. As one writer put it, "There is no concrete plan for the deduction solution. It could involve further limiting certain deductions, like taking the mortgage-interest deduction cap to $500,000 rather than $1 million. Or it could involve a percentage cap or a dollar cap."

We have no idea that such a proposal will fly. But it is getting serious play in Washington now (Nov 13, 2012) as you read this. The number in play at this point is $35,000. (See New York Times article about it here).

Diane and I spend about $50,000 a year on fuel alone and all of it is tax deductible. A $35,000 deduction cap would mean that $15,000 of our annual fuel costs would not be deductible. It would also mean that every other trucking business expense (and personal expense) we have would not be deductible.

I do not know the answer (at this moment) to the following question and would be interested to hear yours.

If an income tax deduction cap of $35,000 was imposed to take effect in tax year 2013, how would it affect your expedite business? To react to such a cap, what changes would you need/want to make to keep your business going as a profitable enterprise?

Dave is right on the money. They are talking about personal deductions. They are not referring to business expense deductions. If they did mean business expense deductions then the entire economy would collapse.
 

ATeam

Senior Member
Retired Expediter
Just a guess on my part, but I think they are talking about a cap on personal deductions taken on schedule A, not business deductions taken on schedule C

As I said, details are sketchy. A cap on Schedule A deductions would be less threatening but it would also fail to raise the kind of revenue Congress and the president need to raise to reduce the deficit. I keep searching for details about this proposal but find precious few. Yet I know that if this is being publicly discussed, there are discussions going on behind the scenes that are more serious and detailed.

A recent BloombergBusinessweek article offers this tidbit:

"Romney suggested a cap on deductions and credits that would be set at $17,000, $25,000 or $50,000. Martin Feldstein, an adviser to both Romney and President Ronald Reagan, has suggested capping deductions at 2 percent of adjusted gross income."

More discussion about how a deduction cap MIGHT look can be seen in this article. But again, details are sketchy at best.
 
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ATeam

Senior Member
Retired Expediter
Dave is right on the money. They are talking about personal deductions. They are not referring to business expense deductions. If they did mean business expense deductions then the entire economy would collapse.

Do you have information to verify this? I have been looking carefully for statements by the players that confirm this very thing; that they are talking about personal deductions. But nothing I have seen confirms it.

Yes, it stands to reason that the severe impact of a $35,000 deduction cap applied to all deductions would dissuade politicians from imposing such a thing. But I have yet to find any firm reference from any of them that would rule out a cap on business expense deductions.

Even if an across the board cap on business deductions was ruled out, it seems likely that some business deductions will be eliminated or reduced. Keep a close eye on this, expediters. Talks underway in Washington now will have a direct impact on your business and taxes as soon as next year.

Note that the numbers that influence politicans most are the political numbers. Business and economic numbers may be considered but for politicians, the politics of an issue almost always trumps the economics of one.

There are about 27 million small businesses in the U.S. In 2012, about 126 million people voted. Since most voters do not own small businesses and do not see the world as small business owners do, political pressure to preserve personal deductions will be much higher than the pressure to preserve business deductions.
 
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BobWolf

Veteran Expediter
Owner/Operator
Dont you see thats the political objective. Collapse the economy and turn our Somewhat financialy viable nation into a third world country, then hand us over to the United Nations where we become slaves to the one world utopian government.

Bob Wolf.
 

davekc

Senior Moderator
Staff member
Fleet Owner
On the expediter side, the only big change that I am aware of is depreciating rebuilds/improvements and the like. Those must now be spread over several years verses a one shot deal.
Probably a few more, but that one came to mind.
 

purgoose10

Veteran Expediter
I think OB's goal is to get rid of small independant businesses and make all businesses file on the corporate level. That way they can also collect corporate taxes on profits. It's also called socialism.
 

ATeam

Senior Member
Retired Expediter
Dont you see thats the political objective. Collapse the economy and turn our Somewhat financialy viable nation into a third world country, then hand us over to the United Nations where we become slaves to the one world utopian government.

Since money was invented, and perhaps before, governments (even empires) and economies have been rising and falling. A study of nations that have collapsed financially over the last two centuries reveals common developments that, in the present day, are manifesting themselves in the U.S. and some other nations. The same study shows that the collapse of a nation's economy (currency) is not uncommon. These events happen again and again.

While some economists who know this history and are alert to these trends warn that the U.S. is today on track for a financial collapse, they do not attribute it to a political agenda or a collective impulse toward one-world government. They attribute it to the very human forces of greed (like a banker who wants to make more money by making more loans), wishful thinking (turning a blind eye to basic financial truths that you know, like buying a house you cannot afford with borrowed money you should not have), and political cowardice to face the music (like printing money to bail out people and banks instead of letting them fail under the weight of their excesses).

The fiscal cliff (massive national debt) that our elected officials are struggling with right now is the product of political cowardice in the past when the can was kicked down the road, again and again, to where it sits today. Given their past acts, the likely outcome is another episode of can kicking, instead of facing the fact that no one is going to get out of this without suffering some pain.

That brings us (and this thread) back to our expediting businesses. We see today our elected officials looking for the most pain-free way to move on to tomorrow. The pain they seek to avoid at first is their own, and they will do that by pleasing the most people or hurting the fewest.

In that context, capping tax deductions is rising as a perceived solution. Exactly how that will work out remains to be seen, but expediters should plan to pay more in 2013 taxes than they pay in 2012 taxes.

These increased costs must be passed on to the customers we serve if we are to maintain our present levels of profitability. For those expediters who are operating on the edge, maintaining price discipline may be the difference between financial survival or ruin.
 
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davekc

Senior Moderator
Staff member
Fleet Owner
I certainly think taxes are going to rise. Just a matter of when and by how much. One for sure will be capital gains. That will effect anyone selling a paid off truck that was previously depreciated.
The current number I hear is to go to 35 percent. So, for every 10k of a sale, that is $3500. May go higher than that but who knows.
 

BobWolf

Veteran Expediter
Owner/Operator
Its not rockett science....
As for thirty $35,000.00 cap when we spend at least $50,000.00 on business expenses all that will do is eliminate the reason to be in this business in the first place.

Hey, Fuher Obumba how abbout this concept. Now I know you will have to strain your brain but try hard as you can to follow me on this.

Stop wasting money by bailing out major corperations that fail due to poor spending and management, when a major corperation or bank files for bankruptcy and pays bonuses to executives, and spend money on high tickett perks, fly in corprate jets, has the money to hire limmosines and fire employees, I think a lengthly prison sentence is more than appropriate. This also applies to our politicians that like to take multi million dollar vacations on my dollar.

Next cut the patnum welfare card, government health care, and unemployment checks that are nothing but total money pits. The exception being those who are PHYSICALY unable to work like quadrapaligic, comatose patients. Place the lazy sloths in the fields, and on production lines so they can earn a decent salary if they refuse, tell them "you work, you eat, you dont work you starve or live off the pitty of others".

When the government gets out of the way, and it easier for businesses to start and grow people are working, and they are paying into the sysyem and not sucking it dry, there is tax revenue and our economy is strong..

Did you catch all that Barry?
Here is a lolly pop, and a sticker for being a good boy.

Bob Wolf.
 

wahoofan

Expert Expediter
hello ateam, dave and everybody

great topic, check out the website here, shocking information about tax increases for 2013. dividend tax rates, 179 expense deductions etc. all here on this website and more.

2013 Federal Income Tax Update - Tax - United States


GOOGLE GODFREY KAHN s.c.

i just don't see how this can take effect without huge effects on an already shaky economy!
 
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