Hazmat question
- Thread starter jlarry
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Is that totally true? I'm asking for a reason...for clarification. It is illegal to placard a vehicle that is carrying non-hazmat materials, correct? So, if it is, would using placards on a hazmat load that does not require placards (table 2, less than 1,001lbs) not be a violation also?
I can see both sides of the debate between you and Phil. I also think there is a middle ground that your both missing. I think your point is correct that the if the load does not require placarding, it likely does not require the rest of the Hazmat regulations either. I also agree with Phil though, that it likely doesn't matter what size vehicle is being used or what qualifications the driver has. The determining factor that brings the HAZMAT regulations into play is whether or not the load requires placards. That is the basic principle that I'm trying to establish from the debate. Then the rest of the "stuff" can be brought into it.
I'm doing this for my education as well as others that I know can learn and possibly be safer because of this discussion.
It just means the material could have a violent polymerization reaction if subjected to heat or contamination. The "P" denotation is to alert you to chemical incompatibilities. For example, you wouldn't want to haul furfural, a primarily agricultural solvent (made from oat husks, wood chips, wheat bran, often used to help pesticides penetrate leaves better) and baking soda (sodium hydrogen carbonate) together, since if they leaked and mixed together, it would be really, really bad. You wouldn't want to haul it with acrylic acid, either, for the same reasons.
I think that the "P" designation, as well as the yellow, green and blue indications in the book are explained on Page 1 of the ERG.
Correct.
No. As long as the material is listed on the Hazardous Materials table, it's not illegal to placard the vehicle, even if the placards are not required. You need a CDL and a HAZMAT endorsement if you're placarded, though. I don't know anyone other than an LTL driver would would willingly drive around with placards on the vehicle unless those placards were required.
That's also consistent with how every carrier that I know of operates, as well as the DOT. No placards, no HAZMAT regulations.
Phil and I have never disagreed about vehicle size with regard to what is and is not HAZMAT. If it requires placarding, be it a truck, van, Prius or F-150 pickup, then it's a CMV and requires a CDL and a HAZMAT endorsement.
The confusion came into play with regard to the actual handling of the papers inside the cab depending on the vehicle. But those are triggered, as Phil is so fond of saying, buy different criteria than whether the freight is placarded or not. If you have a CDL, there are requirements that must be followed because of the CDL, requirements which those without CDLs are not required to follow. For example, if you have a CDL without a HAZMAT endorsement, or if you drive a non-CDL CMV (between 10,001 and 26,000 pounds), if you haul anything on Table 2 which does not require placarding, you still have to undergo the same periodic HAZMAT training as someone with the endorsement, as per CFR 172.700-704. The reason is, when driving a heavy vehicle, even one that doesn't require a CDL to drive, the DOT wants you to be able to recognize and identify hazardous materials, and be able to protect yourself and others. Phil thinks everyone regardless of driver qualifications or vehicle size, including van drivers, are subject to the HAZMAT regulations regarding the transportation of anything listed on the Hazardous Materials Table. He uses as justification the regulations governing the handling of HAZMAT shipping papers. The only problem is, in the Scope and Applicability of his citation, it only applies to materials which require placarding and to which all other HAZMAT rules and regulations apply.
Unlike Phil, I know that regular ol' van drivers hauling non-placardable HAZMAT aren't subject to the HAZMAT regulations. But like Phil, I think they should be, sort of. I think everyone out where, including those without CDLs, should take the HAZMAT endorsement test, or at the very least undergo the same periodic training that those with CDLs do. That way you can recognize hazardous materials, better know what you can and cannot haul (instead of trusting a shipper or a dispatcher), and will know the safety precautions and responses necessary regardless of what you are hauling.
There are certain types of HAZMAT, for example, that cannot be hauled in a cargo van regardless of quantity. Class 6.1 and 6.2 materials, for example, cannot be hauled in a cargo van, despite not being required to be placarded, because you cannot haul any of that in the cab of a truck. That's something that a straight or tractor-trailer driver would never even think about. But a cargo van driver will likely pay close attention to something like that, if they've taken the test or gone through the training. At least read the material and take the online practice tests. But, I think I'm fighting an uphill battle on that front.
The last time I got into a HAZMAT discussion with Turtle, all kinds of stuff got brought into it and the thread went on and on. Determined to avoid that this time, I made sure we were trying to answer the same question before I offered my answer. To that question (defined above) I have nothing more to say.
Regarding your education, Rocketman, there are no shortcuts when it comes to HAZMAT. Drivers hauling the stuff are expected to know and follow the applicable regs, and exactly what is applicable varies depending on the circumstances. I do not hold myself out as someone who is educated in HAZMAT, and I would never advise anyone to rely on what is written in an online open forum for HAZMAT information. HAZMAT is a complicated topic. It is important to master it at the driver's level if you are going to haul the stuff.
I like to keep things as simple as I can when dealing with HAZMAT questions, and the very first step in that is to be crystal clear about what question you are trying to answer. That will likely lead you to another question, and another. The trick is to be clear on each question and take them one at a time.
So, having said all that, let me demonstrate with the questions Rocketman asked above. He said, "It is illegal to placard a vehicle that is carrying non-hazmat materials, correct? So, if it is, would using placards on a hazmat load that does not require placards (table 2, less than 1,001lbs) not be a violation also?"
Let's take the questions one at a time:
Question 1. It is illegal to placard a vehicle that is carrying non-hazmat materials, correct?
Answer: Yes, Rocketman, that is correct. It is illegal to placard a vehicle that is carrying non-HAZMAT materials (assuming you are talking about standard HAZMAT placards used in the transportation industry).
How do I know? Well, I just do. It's something I learned when studying for my HAZMAT CDL-endorsement, and taking various HAZMAT training classes offered by my carriers over the years.
Is that an answer you wish to rely on? Not if you want to be confident in the answer. You and I will both want to know that the answer is right and based on an authoritative source.
So I go to Google and ask your question there. After clicking a few links I figure out that you are asking about "placarding." I then go to the online regs and use the search engine there to find: 49 CFR 172.502 (a) Prohibited placarding. That is the reg that says placards are prohibited on vehicles that are not carrying HAZMAT. See the reg itself for the exact language.
Thus, Rocketman's question 1 is asked and answered. It did not need clarification because the question was clear enough.
Question 2: "So, if it is (illegal to placard a vehicle carrying non-HAZMAT materials), would using placards on a hazmat load that does not require placards (table 2, less than 1,001lbs) not be a violation also?"
Answer: No. It is not a violation to use placards on a vehicle that is carrying a HAZMAT load when placards are not required. You may use placards on that vehicle if you wish. (Diane and I would never have such a wish for a number of reasons.)
How do I know? Well, I just do. It's something I learned when studying for my HAZMAT CDL-endorsement, and taking various HAZMAT training classes offered by my carriers over the years.
Is that an answer you wish to rely on? Not if you want to be confident in the answer. You will want to know that the answer is right and based on an authoritative source.
So, once again, I go to Google and ask your question there. Links there take me back to the regs and I find the answer to the specific question you are asking. It turns out the be the same reg that answers question number 2: 49 CFR 172.502 (c) Permissive placarding.
Now notice this, and this is very important for anyone wishing to get into a HAZMAT discussion (debate). In asking question number 2, Rocketman built in an assumption. Referring to answer number one, he said, "So if it is (illegal) ...."
In saying "So if it is ...." he is assuming that the answer to question 1 has some bearing on question two. Well, it might or it might not. In this case, it did not.
Question 1 is about placarding a vehicle that is not carrying HAZMAT.
Question 2 is about placarding a vehicle that is carrying HAZMAT but circumstances are such that placards are not required.
These are two different questions and the answer to one has nothing to do with the answer to another.
The secret to HAZMAT understanding lies not in finding clear answers (though that is the ultimate goal), the secret to HAZMAT understanding lies in dropping all assumptions and then asking clear questions.
The better you get at that, the quicker you will get to the clear answers you seek. HAZMAT is complicated because the answers vary so much from item to item and circumstance to circumstance. But for a particular item in a particular circumstnace, clear answers can be found.
As a driver who transport different kinds of HAZMAT in different circumstances, I don't think about the big picture or what so-and-so said about a load he once did or a customer he once served. I think only about the particular item and the particular circumstances.
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I don't have a HAZMAT endorsement.
Well....duhhhh! They started background checks for a reason ya know?
Allow me to demonstrate this ask-clear-questions technique further. You must have a certain familiarity with HAZMAT to make it work but any driver trained by a carrier in HAZMAT will have it (I would hope and presume).
This thread was begun by jlarry. He entitled it "Hazmat question" and said, "If you are caring less than 1001 lbs, is the driver required to have paper work in the cab with him? This is non placarded material." He later said, "I'm hauling household material thet is for grocery stores. I was told I didn't need to placard the trailer."
We cannot provide the information he needs without clarifying the question. From what he provided we can guess (subject to confirmation) that:
1. He is the driver.
2. He is hauling HAZMAT of some sort.
3. He is driving a tractor/trailer rig.
4. The load weighs less than 1,001 lbs.
5. Placards are not required.
6. There will be paperwork of some kind that accompanies the load.
Now, back to the question being asked. He is asking, "... is the driver required to have the paper work in the cab with him?
We can assume that he means more than that. We can assume that he is talking about the requiremnt to keep the paperwork within reach of the driver with his seat belt on, but those are assumptions and the ask-clear-questions approach does not permit assumptions. We do not have the luxury of filling in the blanks.
Listen very carefully to what jlarry is asking. He is not asking about the load or the truck or his license or the weight or the placards or the material being hauled. He is not even asking about the paperwork. He is asking about carrying the paperwork in the cab, so that is the place to start.
Given what he has told us so far, the question cannot be answered because we do not know enough about the paperwork in question. We know from the HAZMAT training all drivers receive that there are rules that govern when and how HAZMAT shipping papers are carried. From that, we might be inclined to look at the rules to find the answer he seeks. But until we know exactly what he is asking about, we cannot answer.
By "paper work," does he mean a BOL? Does he mean HAZMAT shipping paper? Does he mean a packing list? Does he mean emergency response information? Does he mean a material safety data sheet? Does he mean a written route plan? Until we know exactly what he is asking about, we cannot provide a good answer.
If he told us he meant a Bill of Lading, that moves us further along but we need to know more. Does the BOL indicate this is a HAZMAT shipment? If the answer to that clear question is "yes," we know jlarry is asking about a HAZMAT shipping paper, and we can search the regs to find the yes-or-no answer he seeks.
There is more to know about when and how to carry and store a HAZMAT shipping paper, and we might want to throw that in, but again, our purpose is not to fill in the blanks. Our purpose is to develop clear questions and answer only those.
In this case, jlarry is asking about carrying paperwork in the cab. By clarifying the question he is asking, we can give him a simple yes-or-no answer. For everything else, he is on his own, until he asks the next question.
This thread was begun by jlarry. He entitled it "Hazmat question" and said, "If you are caring less than 1001 lbs, is the driver required to have paper work in the cab with him? This is non placarded material." He later said, "I'm hauling household material thet is for grocery stores. I was told I didn't need to placard the trailer."
We cannot provide the information he needs without clarifying the question. From what he provided we can guess (subject to confirmation) that:
1. He is the driver.
2. He is hauling HAZMAT of some sort.
3. He is driving a tractor/trailer rig.
4. The load weighs less than 1,001 lbs.
5. Placards are not required.
6. There will be paperwork of some kind that accompanies the load.
Now, back to the question being asked. He is asking, "... is the driver required to have the paper work in the cab with him?
We can assume that he means more than that. We can assume that he is talking about the requiremnt to keep the paperwork within reach of the driver with his seat belt on, but those are assumptions and the ask-clear-questions approach does not permit assumptions. We do not have the luxury of filling in the blanks.
Listen very carefully to what jlarry is asking. He is not asking about the load or the truck or his license or the weight or the placards or the material being hauled. He is not even asking about the paperwork. He is asking about carrying the paperwork in the cab, so that is the place to start.
Given what he has told us so far, the question cannot be answered because we do not know enough about the paperwork in question. We know from the HAZMAT training all drivers receive that there are rules that govern when and how HAZMAT shipping papers are carried. From that, we might be inclined to look at the rules to find the answer he seeks. But until we know exactly what he is asking about, we cannot answer.
By "paper work," does he mean a BOL? Does he mean HAZMAT shipping paper? Does he mean a packing list? Does he mean emergency response information? Does he mean a material safety data sheet? Does he mean a written route plan? Until we know exactly what he is asking about, we cannot provide a good answer.
If he told us he meant a Bill of Lading, that moves us further along but we need to know more. Does the BOL indicate this is a HAZMAT shipment? If the answer to that clear question is "yes," we know jlarry is asking about a HAZMAT shipping paper, and we can search the regs to find the yes-or-no answer he seeks.
There is more to know about when and how to carry and store a HAZMAT shipping paper, and we might want to throw that in, but again, our purpose is not to fill in the blanks. Our purpose is to develop clear questions and answer only those.
In this case, jlarry is asking about carrying paperwork in the cab. By clarifying the question he is asking, we can give him a simple yes-or-no answer. For everything else, he is on his own, until he asks the next question.
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So Ateam, I have a question for you. How much of the Hazmat regulations did you understand before going through Hazmat training at your carriers? Did you follow up that training by researching presented material to determine if the presented material was in fact accurate?
There are probably 100's of drivers reading these forums who have never had a single minute of Hazmat training, including myself. I understand that it is not the case for you and Turtle....and others. But, if those who have never had any kind of training read this thread, they will learn a lot. The main thing that they will learn is that Hazmat regulations can effect them in their job even though they don't actually carry Hazmat. I think the discussion is a good one and can be helpful to a lot of people.
I have learned a few things in this thread, but most of the questions I've asked are directed more towards clarification of your statements to keep the confusion out of the discussion. Not so much for myself, but for other readers. My take from your last post would be "don't ask me, or anyone else, for clarification...reseach it for yourself". My response would be that the discussion of this topic might spur some people to do just that....people who otherwise would never think about it. It is also very possible that many have learned how and where to do that research.....from your post. So, to me anyway, the discussion is valid. Obviously, nobody is required to participate. But I do believe that those who have been through Hazmat training and are knowledgeable of the regulations have a lot to offer, if they choose to do so.
There are probably 100's of drivers reading these forums who have never had a single minute of Hazmat training, including myself. I understand that it is not the case for you and Turtle....and others. But, if those who have never had any kind of training read this thread, they will learn a lot. The main thing that they will learn is that Hazmat regulations can effect them in their job even though they don't actually carry Hazmat. I think the discussion is a good one and can be helpful to a lot of people.
I have learned a few things in this thread, but most of the questions I've asked are directed more towards clarification of your statements to keep the confusion out of the discussion. Not so much for myself, but for other readers. My take from your last post would be "don't ask me, or anyone else, for clarification...reseach it for yourself". My response would be that the discussion of this topic might spur some people to do just that....people who otherwise would never think about it. It is also very possible that many have learned how and where to do that research.....from your post. So, to me anyway, the discussion is valid. Obviously, nobody is required to participate. But I do believe that those who have been through Hazmat training and are knowledgeable of the regulations have a lot to offer, if they choose to do so.
It seems as though CharlesD may have offered the simplest solution for those who are not familiar with Hazmat regulations. Use the UN number to look up the MSDS and research from there whatever material/freight is in question.
If that is true, it would be much simpler and effective. The reality is that those drivers who do not have Hazmat endorsements are not going to spend hours and hours trying to understand Hazmat regulations. Even if they did study the regulations, without the aid of proper training, they are likely to misinterpret and/or fail to absorb at least part of the material. They are, more likely than not, going to ignore that Hazmat regulations and freight exist until the day they are faced with a problem. So...if looking up the MSDS will produce all the information they need on that particular shipment, that seems to me to be the best, most reasonable approach...since that driver may not have another reason to be concerned about Hazmat regulations for years. Is there such a thing as it being as simple as looking up the information on a case by case basis? Does the driver not need to know some of the basics discussed in this thread also?
If that is true, it would be much simpler and effective. The reality is that those drivers who do not have Hazmat endorsements are not going to spend hours and hours trying to understand Hazmat regulations. Even if they did study the regulations, without the aid of proper training, they are likely to misinterpret and/or fail to absorb at least part of the material. They are, more likely than not, going to ignore that Hazmat regulations and freight exist until the day they are faced with a problem. So...if looking up the MSDS will produce all the information they need on that particular shipment, that seems to me to be the best, most reasonable approach...since that driver may not have another reason to be concerned about Hazmat regulations for years. Is there such a thing as it being as simple as looking up the information on a case by case basis? Does the driver not need to know some of the basics discussed in this thread also?
I had enough training to pass the written test for the CDL HAZMAT endorsement. I got that training by studying the CDL manual which was provided to me free of charge by the State of Minnesota.
No. The material was provided by the State of Minnesota. On that basis, I presumed it was accurate and saw no need to use other sources. I did take some practice tests online before taking the real test at the driver license exam station, but did not rely on those as authoritative.
I don't know what other states provide for HAZMAT training materials but do know that what Minnesota provided was a pain to study. It seems that more than one department was involved in writing and organizing the material and the result is exactly what you would expect when two or more bureaucracies show up to help.
The best introductory book I have seen for HAZMAT is HazMat Transportation: What Operators Need To Know. It is printed by by J.J. Keller and has a Landstar cover on it. But I cannot find it for sale anywhere on the web. FedEx Custom Critical had a similar booklet that was equally good but I doubt they distribute it to the public. I have never looked for HAZMAT training materials at a truck stop. Diane is driving now. I'll check at our next stop. If a book like this is for sale at truck stops, I'll let you know.
That may not be my response in all cases but it would be for a driver who was hauling HAZMAT. I'd be happy to help with the research, but HAZMAT drivers must know their stuff and must be responsible for what they know. It does not cut it to say, "I was told ... " or "Distpach said ...." or "The shipper told me ...." If you are hauling HAZMAT, you must know HAZMAT, or at least know how to find out what you need to know before hauling a particular load.
Thank you, Rocketman. That's why I posted it.
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Just because you got the violation doesn't mean it was legitimate. I'm guessing that Phil or Turtle know the regulations better than most LEO's and sadly, probably better than a lot of DOT officers.
You were carrying 300 lbs of what?
Understanding what you can and cannot carry without a Hazmat endorsement on your license is one of the main points in this discussion. For me anyway.
Everyone needs to understand the rules at least to the point of being able to identify a potential problem with the load they have been dispatched to carry.
Phil, please understand that your experiences are different from others. Myself, when I took the CDL class, I was preparing to be a company flat bed driver. There was no reason at all to take the Hazmat exam. I did glance through the material and, on the day of the test, the tester (someone I knew) handed me the Hazmat test and told me to take a shot at it...no harm, no foul either way. I did pass the test, but never knew how...lol. For clarification, I think I just lucked into it....I doubt she helped me pass it. She actually did the same with the tanker endorsement and I failed it.
No carrier that I have ever worked for, or leased to, carried Hazmat so I let mine drop when renewal time came around. I think Load One may do Hazmat, but since I don't have the endorsement it hasn't been mentioned.
Many people reading this forum may not even have a cdl, which likely means they definitely haven't studied the hazmat regulations...anywhere.
Point being....please don't assume that because it is in the state supplied study guide that everyone should have some basic knowledge of the material. You may not be assuming that, but it seems that way. I would agree though that everyone should find some credible source for guidance on the regulations and educate themselves enough to at least be able to identify a possible issue.
No carrier that I have ever worked for, or leased to, carried Hazmat so I let mine drop when renewal time came around. I think Load One may do Hazmat, but since I don't have the endorsement it hasn't been mentioned.
Many people reading this forum may not even have a cdl, which likely means they definitely haven't studied the hazmat regulations...anywhere.
Point being....please don't assume that because it is in the state supplied study guide that everyone should have some basic knowledge of the material. You may not be assuming that, but it seems that way. I would agree though that everyone should find some credible source for guidance on the regulations and educate themselves enough to at least be able to identify a possible issue.
I feel you, Rocketman! I see a HAZMAT expert inside you that is just itching to get out. Stop resisting. Embrace your possibilities. Unlock those gates. Let your inner HAZMAT soar!
Not interested. I see no benefit in it for my business. Only enough to keep me out of trouble. I'm sure there are plenty of others who feel the same.
i had paint from valspar..i also am not just a driver but have had extensive training in csa and dot regs..if its marked as a hazmat on bol you must have a license endorsement to haul it.. regulations dont state only placarded hazmat must have endorsement. you cant haul an entire 40k load of ORM which isnt placarded and not have a hazmat endorsement..take bleach..if its on bulk containers you need to placard it..but if its in 1 gallon jugs you dont need to placard it but if you haul a load of bleach in gallon jugs you need an endorsement..
So, you have all that training and you still got ticketed? Maybe you should have included HAZMAT along with CSA and DOT?
You really should keep up better....lots of good info in this thread. Some of it even proves your above statement to be false.