Founders never wanted to block religious expression

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
Melissa Stahlecker | Posted: Saturday, August 7, 2010 6:00 am

In a recent letter to the editor, Sara Meric accuses Pastor H. Wayne Williams of "boasting of openly defying our Constitutional separation of church and state."

Excuse me? The separation metaphor is not written in our Constitution or in any of our founding documents. It is found in a letter written by Thomas Jefferson, although it has been lifted out of context and given meaning he never intended.

In 1801 the Danbury Baptist Association wrote to newly elected President Jefferson expressing their concern that the First Amendment was not specific enough to provide adequate protection for religious freedom. The separation metaphor appears in his kind reply, but one must include the context to assess his meaning.

Jefferson addressed their concern by clarifying the Founder's intention: "Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights."

Don't miss the point here: His assurance was that religious rights were considered "natural rights," and therefore among those inalienable rights that can neither be granted nor retracted by the government.

In his book "Original Intent," David Barton supplies multiple original quotations, making it quite clear that the framers of the First Amendment intended only to prevent the federal establishment of a national denomination, thus preserving religious freedom. In the written records documenting the months of debate surrounding the First Amendment, the "separation of church and state" is not mentioned once by any of the 90 founders who framed it. The First Amendment is designed to limit the government, not the people.

Of course with rights comes responsibility. We must keep in mind that the court has rightly identified certain acts perpetuated in the name of religion, such as human sacrifice, polygamy, etc. in which the state does have authority to act.

It is "overt acts against peace and good order" that government may legitimately prohibit, not traditional religious expression such as public prayer.

So how did we come by the current situation, in which states, communities, churches, and individuals are denied free exercise? During the first 150 years of the court's existence, the separation metaphor was practically unheard of. It wasn't until 1947 that the Supreme Court invoked it in Everson v. Board of Education, lifting it out of context and abrogating the First Amendment's guarantee of the free exercise of religion, such that the court now prohibits the very thing the founders intended to protect.

In recent decades, the courts have cited the separation phrase more frequently than the First Amendment itself. In a 1989 ruling, Justice Kennedy described the court as "a national theology board", and in 1985 Justice Rehnquist wrote that "the wall of separation between church and state' is a metaphor based on bad history - a metaphor which has proved as a useless guide to judging. It should be frankly and explicitly abandoned."

Allowing religious expression is not the same as respecting an establishment of religion, and free exercise guarantees not just freedom of belief, but also of action based on those beliefs.

Citizens should not be afraid to exercise their First Amendment rights and resist judicial tyranny.
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
So ... with all the BS about NYC and the Mosque, who is supporting the right to build a house of worship regardless where it is?

Is it that we need to cover all religions or as several have put it - we are a Christian Nation and need to stick to that no matter what?
 

LDB

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
The founders had intelligence and common sense. They were not liberals. They intended for there to never be a "church of the USA" as there was a "church of England". They DID NOT intend for brain defective liberals to *******ize the First Amendment to suggest the ten commandments couldn't be displayed or to suggest Merry Christmas should be shunned in favor of season's greetings. Anyone who believes otherwise is either stupid or ignorant or probably both.
 

cheri1122

Veteran Expediter
Driver
I don't believe I'm stupid or ignorant, but I do believe the founding fathers were very clear on their intention to prevent the government from favoring any one religion, as that's the first step towards banning the others.
Their preference for Christianity didn't blind them to the need to accept the validity of other religions as equal to their own. Nor did their wisdom blind them to human nature, and the tendency of some [especially the majority] to take advantage in order to pass laws favoring their own beliefs, while restricting the rights of others.
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Too bad this administration does NOT believe in the "Freedom" part. We have been moving towards the Soviet ideas on religion for a very long time. I never thought that I would see the day when a sitting American president would go to speak in a religious institution and REQUIRE them (by refusing to speak if they did not comply) to cover up all of their religious symbols while he was in THEIR house. The ONLY thing that was worse than he asking was their willingness to comply. What a disgusting world we are living in.
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
What is the soviet idea about religion?

Is it the same as the Chinese or the Europeans or the Indonesian?
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
What is the soviet idea about religion?

Is it the same as the Chinese or the Europeans or the Indonesian?


The elimination of all religion. Suppressing the practice of religion, including civil and criminal penalties for the practice there of. We are not there yet, but we are headed for it. Chinese have similar ideas. Most leftest countries do or did to some extent or another.
 

cheri1122

Veteran Expediter
Driver
The elimination of all religion. Suppressing the practice of religion, including civil and criminal penalties for the practice there of. We are not there yet, but we are headed for it. Chinese have similar ideas. Most leftest countries do or did to some extent or another.

As every President [and candidate] has included his religious faith as part of his candidacy, how can you possibly come to such a conclusion?!
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
As every President [and candidate] has included his religious faith as part of his candidacy, how can you possibly come to such a conclusion?!

I come to that conclusion when a president would refuse to speak at a religious institution if they did not COVER UP THEIR symbols of faith. I come to that conclusion because I believe that Obama is a flaming leftist and that is the direction that the left as always taken. That is my belief. You are not required to agree. I trust NO leftist. Their history is all about control of the people and murder of those who oppose them. Including untold numbers of priests, nuns, monks, etc etc etc, almost everywhere the left took over. I know FAR too many people that escaped from Soviet controlled areas in fear of their lives, many because they had the audacity to want to practice their religion.
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
I also am with Cheri, I can't see that conclusion happening in the next hundred years. Many politicians depend on the different religions and their reach to get elected in the first place.

The Soviets did a lot to destroy religion but failed and so did most of the world's leaders in their attempt. China is more to be feared than the Soviets, the Soviets are lost to history with today's population but the Chinese and other communist seem to be the mainstream twisted thought of the day.

The problem I have is if we are a religiously free society (meaning we can practice what we want), I am not seeing it with some of the crap some have been saying and done.

The Mosque is one issue, so what it is being built near the WTC site, the entire 9/11 subject is tainted by the greed and selfishness of people who became victims (owners of the site, the people who claimed to be damaged by the federal government and so on) to cash in or claim it as only their tragedy. It is proven all by the need to build a "freedom" tower instead of just simply rebuilding the WTC complex. Now it is expanded beyond what it should be. It also is proven with the national park service's greed to build this park to those who died in a PA corn field, they took the land from the people there to build the park which stood against the very freedom these people died for.

The question is not whether they can build the Mosque, it is more important for us to examine why are we fighting against something out of fear and hatred at the same time claiming that other religions are under attack by our government.
 

cheri1122

Veteran Expediter
Driver
I trust NO leftist.
I trust no extremist towards any viewpoint, myself, as they tend to be blind to any possible merit of the 'other' side.
And I think that building a mosque on the site of the WTC would send a powerful message: condemnation of the few should not be extended to the many.
 

dieseldiva

Veteran Expediter
If the people wanting to build this mosque are truly trying to "heal" the rifts between the Muslim religion and all the others then why not include BOTH a Christian church, a Synagogue, etc. in the building? They need to be equally "tolerant", it's a two way street and thus far the only ones that have been forced to bend are us.
 

letzrockexpress

Veteran Expediter
Religion = Ritualism. Ritualism does not necessarily = Spirituality. I believe this is where the confusion lies...
 
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cheri1122

Veteran Expediter
Driver
My take is that neither [radical] Christians nor Jews are responsible for the loss of the WTC, thereby suffering the current distrust towards their religion - only the Muslims are. Allowing the mosques would acknowledge that, after which we should acknowledge the other side of that coin by profiling international travelers.
 

chefdennis

Veteran Expediter
barry has already moved away from "freedom of RELIGION" to the "freedom to WORSHIP" ...while that change may not seem like much, read the article...

As with most of the "change" barry has put forth, its not a good thing and it isn't a far stretch to have this admin dicatate which "religion" you can "worship"....


Obama Retreats From "Religious Freedom" to "Freedom of Worship"

Written by James Heiser
Monday, 19 July 2010 16:50
Obama Retreats From "Religious Freedom" to "Freedom of Worship"

The wisdom of the Founding Fathers of the American Republic was such that the preservation of religious liberty was enunciated in the first clause of the First Amendment of the Bill of Rights: “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.” The application of those 16 words has often been a matter of debate, but the preservation of freedom of religion has been understood as numbered among the fundamental liberties of free people living under the U.S. Constitution.

Now, however, a shift in terminology by President Obama and Secretary of State Clinton is being interpreted by some observers as heralding a threat to this constitutionally guaranteed right.

Earlier this year, Ashley Samelson, international programs director for the Becket Fund for Religious Liberty, wrote for First Things that the Obama administration was abandoning the traditional wording of “religious freedom” to the far narrower terminology of “freedom of worship.” As Samelson wrote her February 22 First Things article:

“Freedom of worship” first appeared in a high profile speech in Obama’s remarks at the memorial for the victims of the Fort Hood shooting last November, a few months after his Cairo speech. Speaking to the crowd gathered to commemorate the victims, President Obama said, “We're a nation that guarantees the freedom to worship as one chooses.” Given the religious tension that marked the tragic incident, it was not an insignificant event at which to unveil a new way of referring to our First Freedom.

Shortly after his remarks at Ft. Hood, President Obama left for his trip to Asia, where he repeatedly referred to “freedom of worship,” and not once to “freedom of religion.”

Not long after his return, “freedom of worship” appeared in two prominent speeches delivered by Secretary Clinton. In her address to Georgetown University outlining the Obama Administration’s human rights agenda she used “freedom of worship” three times, “freedom of religion,” not once. About a month later, in an address to Senators on internet freedom at the Newseum, the phrase popped up in her lingo once again.

The shift in terminology, though subtle, is very significant, because it can justifiably be interpreted to imply that religious freedom is restricted to the rites conducted in places of worship if only “freedom of worship” is being upheld. “Religious freedom” is a much broader concept, extending to the expression of one’s beliefs in many areas of life. Again, in the words of Samelson:

To anyone who closely follows prominent discussion of religious freedom in the diplomatic and political arena, this linguistic shift is troubling.

The reason is simple. Any person of faith knows that religious exercise is about a lot more than freedom of worship. It’s about the right to dress according to one’s religious dictates, to preach openly, to evangelize, to engage in the public square. Everyone knows that religious Jews keep kosher, religious Quakers don’t go to war, and religious Muslim women wear headscarves—yet “freedom of worship” would protect none of these acts of faith.

Those who would limit religious practice to the cathedral and the home are the very same people who would strip the public square of any religious presence. They are working to tear down roadside memorial crosses built to commemorate fallen state troopers in Utah, to strip “Under God” from the Pledge of Allegiance, and they recently stopped a protester from entering an art gallery because she wore a pro-life pin.

The change of terminology is beginning to draw attention from members of the religious press. As Randy Sly observed in an article for Catholic Online:

Mark Twain used to say, "The difference between the almost right word and the right word is really a large matter — it's the difference between the lightning bug and the lightning." As Catholics, this is an area where we must remain vigilant. These small changes can be used to change our perception of rights and freedoms. In retrosprect, the past hundred years gives us a number of significant issues in which this has already happened to one degree or another. Abortion, contraception, marriage, the family, and gender have all been re-engineered to fashion a new worldview.

What may seem an innocent shift in language now could possibly end up as a "tipping point" for our religious freedom. Make no mistake; this is the goal and desire of the many inside and outside our current administration.

Such concerns are not limited to conservative religious circles; as Rev. Chris Duckworth, a pastor of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America serving in Washington, D.C., declared,

I don't share the Orwellian fears held by Chuck Colson (in a disturbing, anti-homosexual, leaping-to-conclusions video here) and others that this change of terminology reflects a clear intent by a liberal government to quash religious freedom and eradicate religion from the public square. But I do believe that words are important, and that if this change is more than mere semantics, it could have a significant impact in how our government, through both foreign and domestic policy, engages matters related to the personal and corporate religious practices of people worldwide.
As someone who believes that the practice of religion extends far beyond the act of worship, I'd be concerned if the administration is making a policy change in favor of "freedom of worship" rather than the broader, Constitutional, and much more comprehensive "freedom of religion."

The potential implications of a change from “religious freedom” to “freedom of worship” may have already begun to play out on the very grounds of the U.S. Supreme Court.

In May 5, a school teacher of Arizona, Maureen Rigo, traveled with students to the Supreme Court and, according to press reports and a letter of complaint filed with the Court, found that their religious liberties did not extend to prayer on the grounds of the court.

After arriving at the Oval Plaza, they stood off to the side at the bottom of the steps, bowed their heads, and quietly prayed amongst themselves to God.

Even though they were not obstructing traffic, not demonstrating, and praying quietly in a conversational tone so as to not attract attention, a court police officer approached the group and told them to stop praying in that public area immediately. The prayer was stopped based on a statute, 40 U.S.C. §6135, which bars parades and processions on Supreme Court grounds.

The Alliance Defense Fund (ADF), which describes itself as a “legal alliance of Christian attorneys and like-minded organizations defending the right of people to freely live out their faith,” has gotten involved in Rigo’s case, sending a letter to officials of the Supreme Court. The ADF’s July 15 letter observes, in part, that the wording of the cited statute clearly cannot apply to quiet, public prayer:

Here, the application of 40 U.S.C. §6135 to prevent quiet, conversational-level prayers (like Rigo’s) is unconstitutional because it is unreasonable, overbroad, and viewpoint discriminatory. 40 U.S.C. §6135 reads as follows:

It is unlawful to parade, stand, or move in processions or assemblages in the Supreme Court Building or grounds, or to display in the Building and grounds a flag, banner, or device designed or adapted to bring into public notice a party, organization, or movement.

The wording of the statute does not seemingly contemplate quiet prayers like Mrs. Rigo’s. Such prayers are “not designed or adopted to bring” Mrs. Rigo “into public notice.” Indeed, Mrs. Rigo’s prayers were not communicated to anyone outside of God and her very small group. Her prayers were akin to routine conversations conducted by any other small group of persons touring the Supreme Court grounds. Likewise, Mrs. Rigo was not engaged in a parade, procession, or assembly. She was speaking in a conversational level to those around her with her head bowed.

Subtle changes in legal terminology can mean an enormous change in public policy. A change from “freedom of religion” to “freedom of worship” could mark the transition from a faith which has implications for life in the public square to an expression of beliefs that must be hidden from public view
 

letzrockexpress

Veteran Expediter
If you think about it Chef, freedom to worship makes more sense than freedom of religion. There are all kinds of wacko churches out there just as dangerous, if not more dangerous than Islam. All kinds of weirdo cults and anti-government organizations exist in this country in the name of "religion".David Koresh comes to mind. Some of those nut job split off Mormons like Jeffrey Lundgren..All practicing criminals and murderers under the guise of freedom of religion.
 

chefdennis

Veteran Expediter
but when religion is removed and worship is put there, you can easily remove traits and aspects of any religion that could be found offensive to some. France has told muslum women that they can no llonger cover their faces. Now I understand why they did that, but if that was done here it would be discriminatory against the muslum religion.

I find the building of a mosque within blocks of ground zero a stupid move...but how many blocks away should it be? 5, 10?? The placement as it is now I feel, and I am not allone is nothing more then a nasty rub in the face to the America people and the family members of those that died there....but....they certainly have the right to build it there, no matter what the reason....

As for the wacko's hiding behind religion, there always have been and always will bemuch like war...as long as man inhabits this planet, you will have them.....
 

letzrockexpress

Veteran Expediter
I am giving this thread a 5 star rating..as you guys/gals are actually discussing a topic and not bickering...this is a good thing...it is what the soapbox was intended..not just as a post it board.


5 stars? Is that U.S. or Canada? We would need to know the exchange rate....
 

letzrockexpress

Veteran Expediter
I suspect the argument on whether this Mosque should be built or not is a moot one. Who would build it? I was in the construction business over 20 years and I can't recall too many muslim craftsmen, if any. I submit you will be hard pressed to find a contractor willing to take on such a controversial project in Manhatten. If you know anything about how such projects are, let's say, "regulated" in New York City, I do not believe it could ever come to pass. If by chance it did, That building and the people who occupy it would be subject to constant threats and vandalism...
 
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chefdennis

Veteran Expediter
Letz wrote:

That building and the people who occupy it would be subject to constant threats and vandalism...

Or worse...it would not surprise too many if it was the next building in NYC blown up...
 
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